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I've just logged on again to express a big thank you to everyone who posted condolences or sent personal messages to me after my recent sad loss. It really was very much appreciated. I haven't been to Carrow Road since before the World Cup break and have again given my ticket away for tonights match. At the moment its very much about taking one day at a time but my great grandson has said he will come with me when I want to go back, so I may give it a go next week for the Watford game. He is a keen footballer himself and plays in the under 15's Sunday Youth League but I'm not sure if he bleeds yellow and green quite yet. I expect this will be my new project.

Damn! A third set of experienced, qualified coaches who have been tricked by McLeans words or something 😅😅😅

The only thing tonight has shown is that regardless of the manager we have spent a lot of money to assemble a very average team.

Thank you @Parma Ham's gone mouldy and to the many other posters who have articulated many of the issues at, and facing, the club that I have been thinking about but unable to clearly form in my head. I have increasingly been unable to understand the decision making at the club. The above is a pithy summary of why. To elaborate more, when making decisions under uncertainty (as is certainly the case in football) you need to use second-order thinking (rather than first-order thinking). Example: you are scouting for players and you identify a player who you think is undervalued, that is first-order thinking. The harder, second-order bit is: this player is undervalued because, say, they get chronic ankle injuries, but you have devised a different training regime for the player that completely nullifies that drawback. Compare some early Webber signings to some later ones (which I admit isn't a fully honest comprison). Stiepermann, Pukki and Buendia are all unconventional players. Being a lanky, ungainly player with no clearly defined role; a striker who relies on movement and through balls to score goals but is relatively slow and past his peak age; and a playmaker with prodigious technical ability but a hot head who cannot be relied on to keep his cool. But if you watched Norwich, you'd see those unconventional attributes complemented each other. The very reason they were undervalued were what made them so value to Norwich. Contrast to some more recent signings: Gilmour (a technically gifted passer that possession based teams have to keep passing tempo); Sargent (a conventional defensive forward now in the zeitgeist); and Rashica (a tricky wide forward that can run with the ball and presumably score goals, think Salah et. al). All undervalued (and thus affordable to Norwich). But the difference to the above should be obvious in that Norwich did not possess nor create a system whereby the reasons they were affordable to Norwich could be overcome. We tried to play a system that other clubs with a lot more money, and thus better players, used. The club used first-order thinking in a second-order game. Being somewhat unfair to them, Dean Smith and Craig Shakespeare are the personifications of this. To close these somewhat unstructured thoughts out, I want to refer to a mental model used by a famous hedge fund manager Howard Marks (coincidentally he is a contemporary and, in some sense, a rival to Mark Attanasio, both being investors in the distressed debt market). Mr Marks says, to achieve the possibility of superior returns one must use unconventional behaviour and make superior judgements. The first promotion under Farke was such an example, Norwich did unconventional things and did those excellently, the clube achieved a huge, unexpected, positive outcome. In the first premier league season Norwich also did unconventional things but neither did them well nor had favourable outcomes. Fast forward to now, the club are making conventional decisions with non-superior judgements. Norwich spent a club record on wages, sacked an unconventional manager for a very much conventional one and gave both a first-order thinking team (with none of Parma's weapons) rather than a second-order one. The club are doing the same things other clubs are doing, executing them at a lower level, yet expecting to outperform. A change in thinking is required.

We have no idea about the "stuff" other than rumors. Personally I think it's a load of b*llocks. I think he was just the victim of the inexplicable switch to 4-3-3. His position in the team was effectively removed: he's not a winger or a central midfielder and Rashica and Sargent were brought in at great expense to fill those two places. Without the minutes on the pitch and trying to adapt to the new system (which was totally shambolic and in which everyone else was struggling), Todd ended up falling out with Farke. He was probably upset about the above and maybe said something wrong. Then he probably had a bit of a bad attitude simply because he was in the dog house. There was no obvious path back into contention and he just wanted to move on to continue his career elsewhere. He's coming to the end of his contract and clearly didn't think we were offering him enough money to stay on. This season he has generally looked excellent whenever he has played, but he didn't seem to be doing the things that Smith was looking for: not athletic enough maybe? He was notably substituted in the QPR game when I thought he was the best player on the pitch. We haven't seen him since. In my opinion Cantwell is the second most important player at the club (behind Pukki). He's been totally mismanaged and wasted as an asset. We absolutely need his flair and creativity - it's everything that's been missing under Smith. The problem is that he will be short of confidence and match fitness. It's hard to hit the ground running without a consistent run in the team. Sadly I think his time here is fading out. But I think we'll look pretty stupid when his career takes off again, probably at a bigger club.

For one of the very few times this season, and in particular second half, I saw what looked like a player in Sara. A central midfielder with athleticism and some quality on the ball who showed for the ball and spread play well, with good energy.

Really? Sack the coach, put some backroom staff in charge and expect a revolution? Blimey. Get a grip posters.

And your evidence for this is what? You're falling for the utterly disingenuous right-wing distraction tactic of claiming that those who raise issues about race equality (etc) must de facto be ignoring the claims of the white working class. It is nothing more than far right wing recruiting propaganda to pretend that there has to be some kind of war between the needs of various under privileged groups, that there is only so much social justice to go round, and that white under privileged kids aren't getting their fair share because middle class lefty do-gooders are only interested in ethnic minorities. There are huge numbers of groups campaigning on issues that affect white working class kids. For example, the many groups acting on poverty do not distinguish between the needs of the poor on any kind of racial or ethnic ground. When Marcus Rashford began his campaign for free school meals I don't remember him saying that white kids were to be excluded. When education charities enter schools to help children with reading or learning difficulties they do not exclude white kids from that help. The problem is not that the needs of white working class kids are being ignored. The problem is that they are being preyed upon by disgusting right wing racists who tell them that their impoverished situation is being caused by the attention given to other ethnic minorities. It is a (racist) divide and rule tactic used by the unscrupulous as old as civilisation itself: "It's not those in power who are responsible for your plight, it's that group over there who are stealing what is rightly yours". So Hitler blamed the Jews for the poverty of the German working class, and right wingers blame lefty do-gooders for the impoverishment of white working class kids in modern day Britain. Strange, because I've yet to meet a lefty do-gooder who doesn't want social justice for white working class kids as much as they want it for any other under privileged child of whatever identity. All underprivileged kids deserve social justice.

Shame, looked soft on Sky, undeserved equaliser!

I like people who are brave enough to say their piece and not wait, sit on the fence and join the winning team.

Well, that's gonna make a few look foolish on here. Go Adam!

That midfield terrifies me. Zero physicality or defensive nous in there.

You're bang on here, the problem is the poverty of so many of our communities, and their insular nature which comes from decades of abandonment. This is what is being exploited by the far right, and I totally agree about the obfuscation and subterfuge employed to turn it into a dividing mechanism for society.

To be fair to LYB - I don't think he is arguing in favour of them, just saying that if the issues of this group are never addressed by political discourse then they are a fertile breeding ground for alternative viewpoints. He's not wrong in that regard. The problem here is conflating it with left and right wings of politics. These are communities (at least in my area - Nottinghamshire) that were largely left behind by Thatcher shutting the mines and everybody since then on both sides of the fence has totally ignored. That's why you get so much traction in these areas for UKIP, and idiots like Lee Anderson and his ilk. They aren't interested in Westminster, they're interested in people who look like them, and sound like them and tell them what they want to hear, because there is a fundamnetal distrust of all politicians who have done FA for these communities for more than a generation. Dennis Skinner is another example on the other side of the divide - demographics of his constituency were almost identical to Lee Anderson's and about 10/15 miles separated geographically - people in these communities aren't interested in political nuances and intricacies of policy,.... it's not about left and right, its about communities being left behind and looking for personalities rather than policies. Andrew Tate and his popularity in these communities is a symptom of a wider malaise, and LYB was righ in that respect. Blaming it on the left and identity politics, when the Tories have been in charge for the vast majority of the last 40 years is where his argument falls down.

Fashionable minorities like women?

Anyone playing RWNJ bingo can tick off this square.

If we win tonight we could go 4th. Will that be a false position or a realistic one? I'm confused.

I work in the private sector, and in no way have received a pay rise to match inflation. The following is about all I can do about it.

Lol apparently in his reply video he gave his location away to Romanian police who have now arrested him for child trafficking!

So pumped for the game tonight! Free from the shackles of Deanoball, let's get behind the boys from the first minute and turn FCR into a cauldron of noise. It's so good to be going to the game with a spring in my step and a song in my heart. YEEEEEELLOOOOOWS!

No. We should be beating teams like Reading. We would have beaten a team like Reading if the referee hadn't decided he wouldn't allow it to happen.

CC; I’ll readily admit to being critical of him. I also loved the role he played in those games last season against West Ham & Everton. For every battering ram performance there’ll be two ‘namby-pamby side-footed passes to their keeper/the stand behind the goal’ type of performances. Like everyone, I want the lad to come good. But it’s clear that had he not been homegrown, he’d be taking pelters like Sinani or Hugill have of late. Fair play to him, he took that chance beautifully just now. But he’s a pro footballer, it’s no more than should be expected.

Why does it have to be that the players are crap? Why not that they are low on confidence, lacking a bit of belief, in a bit of a rut? We have good players FFS. Very good players at this level. OTBC!!!

Nice.

He actually looked pretty good in his last few games in the PL before he was injured, but let’s not let that stop everyone having a moan because he doesn’t play like Haaland in his first few games. Edit: (something about told you so?)

Actual footage of Dean Smith after hearing the atmosphere.....

My usual source just took me to a documentary about serial killers on Austrian TV... Should I put some money on Hasenhuttl?

Have I got this right that we can make changes of personnel during the game? Asking for a friend currently cowering behind a sofa.

Absolute ****ing madness. The whole "Youtuber/influencer" culture is one of the worst things that has ever happened to society. People are literally stupid enough to fight over a chemical and sugar laden monstrosity because whatever lab created it were smart enough to do a deal with the talentless ****wits who *** about doing **** all of any use to anyone. KSI didn't create it, he endorsed it because he was paid to do so. Wtf is wrong with people? Humanity is now at a point where survival of the fittest unfortunately means we're heading for mass extinction because the majority of the world are thick as ****.

Can't believe I'm getting involved in this increasingly toxic thread, but the question is not "will the new coach do better in the second half of the season than Dean Smith did in the first half?". The question is whether a new coach would do better in the second half of the season than Smith would have done if we'd kept him on. Obviously, by definition, this can never be known for sure. But most of us on this site, and clearly the board, came to the conclusion that we wouldn't stay in the top six with Smith as coach. We'd certainly have needed to improve to do so: and the evidence suggests that, far from improving, we were getting worse. Based on the games I've seen and the quality of the other teams, I would say that the squad of players we have should finish in the top six. I don't believe we would have done so under Smith, and I would expect a decent coaching appointment to help us do that.

One problem of having a striker as good as Pukki is that it becomes difficult to develop anyone else. I think Idah has suffered from this, and we now have the Pukki/Sargent dilemma. It might be easier if the young player had a similar playing style to Pukki, because perhaps then he could replace Pukki and come on at the end of games if we weren't chasing them, but that's never been the case. Sargent can't do what Pukki can (and vice-versa), so we almost need two playing styles/formations according to which striker is on the pitch. I just want to stress this is not in any way a criticism of Pukki. It's a problem we have simply because he is so good.

This is going to be a long post even by my standards, so strap in if you're really keen. The notion of being "incel" is some of the most toxic bovine excrement I've ever heard. It's contradictory beyond belief. It's misogynistic as all hell, but it also hits fundamentally sound men quite hard. If celibacy pissed these guys off so much, they'd hire an escort. If they're getting the ick at that, it's not a lack of sex that bothers them. If it's illegal in the country they live in, they'd get their passport. We already know loads went to the Netherlands just for sex and drugs. Hell, we know Irish women came to the UK in their hundreds to get abortions. The dating market is the freest market around. Any hetero guy can wander up to ANY hetero woman he fancies and ask for her companionship. If she's taken or whatever, no matter - the point is that any guy can ask. What these guys really don't understand is that if you have free access to all parts of a market, everyone also has - or should have - the right to say no. They can ask any girl they like. By the same token, the intended target can also say yes or no for whatever reason they like. And if these guys consistently get "no" then by definition, the issue lies with them. Amongst other things, they're looking in the wrong circles or are so unappealing in some way or another that they have no option but to work on it. Refusing to work on it is voluntary acceptance of their position. So, the "involuntary" aspect is therefore SOFA KING WEE TARRED HEAD!! It is a thinly veiled way of saying "we're not to blame, women won't give us a chance". It is refusing responsibility for their actions and blaming women for their own toxicity. Simple as that. These guys are not just after sex. They want a doormat with breasts and a minge. The particularly stupid then complain about "feminism" when in reality, the issue is primarily due to demented social norms that put romance and sex over honest, platonic friendship (the notion of a "friendzone" being a "second prize" is another highly toxic piece of nonsense that deserves ridicule) and a flawed perception of women that they're there for sex first or, as these PUAs would essentially try to have impressionable young men believe, they are "puzzles" to be solved and convinced to say "yes" instead of being fully autonomous. I wonder how many divorces were started off by relationships that essentially started on such similar lines?? I also like to quip that any imbecile who ever uses the term "cat lady" is too stupid and lacking in self-awareness to see that they've literally admitted that the cat is better company than they are. And as for those who say a person is being "too picky"...my eyes generally roll so hard I can see the previous night's dinner. We have so many issues because people are NOT BEING PICKY ENOUGH! If you're looking for a partner to share intimacy, your life, and - hopefully - the very rest of your life with then WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU BE PICKY!!??? And men and women the world over are doing themselves down by chasing tail and thinking they've got to be in certain positions by certain ages. Criticise the prevailing norms that men and women have to follow, not men or women in general.

Robin Sainty: It's not mission impossible for Norwich City now As Boxing Days go, I think I may have reached rock bottom this year. Having reluctantly left my poorly wife at home, I made the trek to Kenilworth Road, a ground that would disgrace League Two, only to find myself living through a particularly horrific remake of The Fly. However, instead of Jeff Goldblum morphing into an insect I had to experience Norwich City turning into late Mick McCarthy-era Ipswich Town with a team that looked like total strangers, away fans trading punches and any lingering shred of respect between manager and supporters irrevocably torn asunder. It was made worse by the fact that Ipswich are currently riding high, having apparently learnt from all the things that City used to get right; a sense of unity, a young manager playing attractive football and supporters being made to feel valued. Meanwhile, back at Luton, Dean Smith’s response to losing to a team with 10 men was to completely blank the thousand or so fans who’d given up our Boxing Day to support his team and then tell Sky Sports that he had no idea why fans were negative towards him. His sacking the following day surprised no one. On the pitch, City plumbed new depths and should have been dead in the water by half-time had Luton been more clinical in converting clear-cut chances or Angus Gunn not been on top form, but what was really worrying was the number of times players either went for the same ball or left it to each other. It really did look as if they’d been introduced to each other in the dressing room before the game, and none looked more lost than Gabriel Sara. I really feel for the Brazilian, who is clearly talented but seems to be struggling to understand what his role is, having been played all over midfield. On Monday, he was given the number 10 role, but with City unable to keep possession and being consistently outbattled in midfield, despite a back three giving them five players there, he was rarely able to get on the ball in areas where he could hurt Luton and was ignominiously withdrawn at half-time. Apart from a late flurry it was tough to watch as, even with three strikers on the pitch after half-time, City were unable to pose a significant threat to Luton’s goal. Has the sacking come too late? For the automatic spots it would seem that it has, but a new man who can galvanise a squad that isn’t short of talent should still be able to secure a play-off spot, given the inconsistency of most teams in the top half. What is certain is that the team that walks out in yellow and green tonight will have the whole crowd behind them. Fans may moan and criticise but when the chips are down, they deliver because this is THEIR club, and they love it. When the club needed to raise money via a share issue the fans put their money where their mouths were and when it needed to upgrade the Academy but lacked capital the fans stepped up again and subscribed the required amount to a bond issue within a few hours. The fact that Smith appeared to go out of his way to antagonise them over the last couple of weeks certainly made his position even more untenable, but it is hard to believe that his attitude didn’t reflect a wider and deep-seated feeling within the club that fans should be seen but not heard. There is clearly work to be done to rebuild the feeling of togetherness that made the majority of Daniel Farke’s time at the club so enjoyable, but it is far from impossible, and a good start would be finding a manager who can produce attractive football with a clear sense of identity that everyone can buy into.

We are massively lacking creativity. Cantwell could be that person IF he can play to the potential he showed in his debut premier league season.

Like Wagner, if this is genuinely our sort of interest level then it's an automatic admittance from Webber that he got it wrong and should have stuck with Farke or at least a Farke - like Character...

I've wondered for some time whether those players who've already been promoted once or twice with City really deep down have the appetite for another season of being thumped week after week. They know there's very little money in the kitty to strengthen the squad and even if we did have the money look at Nottingham Forest. Yes, they'll earn more in the Premier League but these young men are already wealthy by most standards and do the increased wages really make up for just a handful of wins a season?

He's a one man case for why social media is a bad thing. Pre twitter/insta etc he's a total nobody.

I know some of you question the premise that selling Buendia deeply affected the remaining players (because of its timing)…. ….an insight into why some things have far deeper resonance for players - and even though it is rarely talked about - is hinted at today by Iwan Roberts in his Pink Un column. Iwan is in full lads-in-the-dressing-room mode, suggesting-tagging his mates for roles he knows they’d never get, but also pulling back the curtain a little on what players really think: ’If Steve Weaver walks in….I’m like ‘who is this bloke?’….’ ’A set piece coach?…(is that the best you’ve got?..).what does the manager do?’ ’…maybe the squad ISN’T good enough (after all)’ Rather simplistic, superficial, judgmental…and very, very common…… Now imagine 22 young men like Iwan, at the point of promotion, having been relegated unceremoniously a couple of years before, having been promised that pain was ‘to be set up this time’, having given everything to achieve a historical feat, knowing how important Buendia (and Skipp) are to what comes next…do you feel-judge (as Iwan does here) that the club is on the up or the down…?….this is the everyday currency of players. . Parma

We now look like we are sat in our actual deserved league position. Been sat in a false position for weeks.

For me, the GOAT. Forget the recent love in with Messi, this man scored two in a WC Final at 17. Can you imagine. The greatest player in the world at 17! He called football the beautiful game and he was the reason it was. And he was a great ambassador for the game and his country. Long may his memory last.

Can't be true. There were still pies available at half time.

I'm not saying we need to forget about Promotion but could you imagine this side in the top flight? Now that's scary

No problem with him in the team, but slight reservations about him being (presumably) the sole defensive midfielder.

Well, Dean Smith's mum can safely attend again, so that's one extra

Great to see you back. It will obviously take time to process and heal- but know that everyone on here is rooting for you.

I find your argument 100% persuasive @Parma Ham's gone mouldy, it would be difficult not to when we sit managerless & mid-table champs. We did what we did and it failed, although the success of the counter factuals are unknowable. I take the point that Buendia was more effective on results in the Championship. However Maddison just looks like he belongs at the top end of the Prem and higher while the little Argentine seems more of a flat track bully to mix sport metaphors.

i have MY own thought on what is going on with Cantwell and as it is a guess i will not post it BUT Cantwell can not pick and choose which manager he wants to to play for it is a shame as the boy has talent and can play his next step is up to Todd

Or was it that we were in the true position for weeks? And I think you will find it was months, during that unbeaten run. "False position" has to be this season cr@ppest saying. "We're in a false position" - win, stay top 6. October. "We're in a false position" - draw, stay top 6. November. "We're in a false position" - win, stay top 6. December. Dec 29th. "Been sat in a false position for weeks!". New manager comes in, gets some results. "We've turned it around". Back in top six "We deserve to be there now". We are where the points we get put us, it is simply that simple. There is no such thing as a false position - it's a faux pas. The only very possible application is if teams have games in hand, but even then, it's only false in that the true position will be established when all teams have played the same number of games, so it doesn't make it false, just not secure. Smith has gone, please can we just drop the absolutely awful attempts at arguments that have absolutely no merit now?