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We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

No. And it’s not the same question. If you think Wagner, Knapper and this board can last to the summer without seriously damaging relationships and generating huge levels of toxicity based on current trajectory you’re delusional IMO. It’s 5+ months. Wagners a dead man walking and arguably has been for weeks. Whatever the long term plan is it’s increasing obvious the short term one can’t be do nothing.

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him.

I find it incredible (but not surprised) that Wagner hasn’t been sacked, not just for the run of defeats, but for last night’s performance & for the lack of football identity. I genuinely don’t think Wagner has a clue what style of football he thinks is best suited for the players at the club, he keeps chopping & changing players, trying to put square peg’s into round holes, sure he can mention that we’ve picked up injuries, but which team hasn’t. Apart from the squad which was relegated to League 1, I can’t remember a Norwich team so disorganised, clueless of what they should do with the ball in so many situations during games. Why wait for the obvious inevitable, just get rid of Wagner.

Sunak roasted today by Starmer in PMQs. Nice link to Cleverly today as well and sharp humour by Starmer.😃

Definitely not. But how he stayed on for 90 minutes is beyond me. He's a decent impact player as a late sub, but should never be a starter.

The Elgin Marbles. It absurd Sunak is playing petty politics with this. Even the British Museum is happy to come to some arrangement with the Greeks from where they were 'pinched' in the late 19th century. They surely belong today with the Acropolis!

Standing at Vicarage Road on one of those cold, wet and miserable Tuesday nights in November was not my idea of a fun night out but hey ho myself and a couple of friends were there. You know the time is up for the head coach/manager when our loyal away fans sing the thread title but no such rendition was heard as we all know it won't happen. However Wagner was subjected to......David Wagner your football is $hit, We want Wagner out and you don't know what you are doing plus of course the customary boos every few minutes in the second half especially. David please do the honourable thing and fall on your sword before we fall into complete and utter disarray. MOTM for me was Sara for putting his kit on.

Ultimately Wagner has abandoned all his principles in a desperate attempt at results and we saw us get a result vs QPR. We were decent to begin with yesterday but the 2-0 lead was obviously down to a big of magic from Hwang so a bit fortuitous. At that point when Hwang was injured it is almost inconceivable to me that Wagner would look at the match situation and think a not-quite-fit Ashley Barnes was the right substitution. Gibbs or Nunez and a bit of retention of the ball should have been obvious. We scored 2 goals away from home and not one player had a good game. Always worth assessing risk / reward when changing players / managers / owners. I can't see how a change of manager is any sort of risk.

Nope but I do think giving a manager as much time as possible to get his style/philosophy across ahead of next season would be beneficial.

Sadly, this was my concern pre-season when we were placing priority on physicality. It's ok when you've got your tails up, squad is fit and you can be applying the press to force a turnover in play when you're the aggressors. However, It's not ok when you're unable to buy yourself time on the ball outside of nervously knocking the ball around between two CBs and the keeper when the opponent is the aggressor. We struggle with basic passing, and another factor is that our off the ball movement is shocking too - Onel really is pitiful in both those departments, and he's not the only one either. If I was Knapper, after watching a few games live, i'd really be questioning the coaching at the club at this point as what's seen on field is way below standard. I don't know if it's lack of ability, nerves or confidence issues amongst the squad, either way it's inexcusable to be earning 10's of thousands a week, have access to all those facilities, all those hours of training, tactical and mental coaching and still kick the ball straight out of play several times a match. What makes this worse is that despite the priority placed on physicality, we're not even fitter than most opponents we face each week, I swear that we're easily worn down due to the inability to retain the ball that it affects us mentally, you can see the drop off in games where we just appear to be zapped of energy as momentum shifts, it's in those moments where a bit more class is required.

No he’s not but he is the new scapegoat

Went to the recent Stanley v Wrexham game. All 3 loanees played. Hills was a dominant figure in the defence and was wrestled to the ground at a corner for the penalty that opened the scoring. At a break in play he was geeing up his teammates to keep a clean sheet- a leader. The locals really rate him. Shipley had a solid game, particularly the second half. McCracken, apart from a couple of kicking alarms, showed a safe pair of hands. A good day all round for them, a clean sheet against a good team. Great atmosphere with half the ground filled with Wrexham fans. Exciting full blooded game- puts recent NCFC games to shame.

should of been the first sub on and told to sit in the midfield and put his foot on the ball and slow the game down instead of Bringing on Barnes

The problem last night was keeping hold of the ball. In the Farke second title win, we used to get in front and then pass teams to death. Last night we kept giving it back to them. That is nothing to do with physicality and everything to do with ability.

Wonder whether this year will mark the last Tory Christmas for a good while?

Wouldn’t it be awful if they were absolutely true to their word ‘never to take a penny out’ though a successor benefited, used the unclaimed provisions you identify as a precedent, then also simply hoovered the generous (externally unseen) legacy bequeathed to him? Should we not ask such questions as shareholders? Couldn’t it be considered as part of our fiduciary duty in the exceptional circumstances we find ourselves of new owners we don’t really know or understand? Parma

I liked the opening comment.... He says the PM spent this week arguing about an ancient relic which a tiny amount of the British public have interest in, referring to the row over the Parthenon Sculptures, or Elgin Marbles. "That’s enough about the Tory Party," Starmer jokes.

Ok so, seems a bit pointless now but QPR: Let's dispel the myth that QPR created lots. They didn't. They had a lot of the ball, we were rubbish but relatively compact - very little came through the middle which has been our weak point. We forced them out wide and generally dealt with crosses. That's as good as it gets and of course the argument is any manager can make you (more) solid if you surrender all attacking intent. Now the pain of last night. We took a 2-0 lead. Not "undeservedly" so, but with fortune and luck involved. We had little of the ball but Watford gave it away in dangerous areas and we were pretty incisive. The corner goal was good to see, Watford are one of the worst at defending set pieces this season. Hwang's goal was a great strike and Sara's quick thought of playing it first time into his path gave him the opportunity. So, 2 assists for Sara (I mention that, because that's all he generally offered). We were 2-0 up from just 0.36 xG - we hadn't created loads but we'd taken one corner chance and Hwang's strike is just "one of those" (equally similar to Rotherham away and their first goal - they happen). At 2-0 up but having not had control of the match (although we'd pressed wide areas pretty well Sara was still wandering and the gaps between Mclean and Sara were far too large) the Hwang injury was a shame but the opportunity to try and change the flow of the game. Watford were poor on the ball but still better than us and having plenty of it - why we didn't opt for a midfielder who can collect the ball in spaces and play simple passes to retain possession is beyond me - Gibbs / Nunez seemed ideal. Instead we opted for un-fit Barnes. Despite being 2-0 up and Sara having two assists, both of them were having poor games. Mclean had a dreadful one. And when that happens, we invariably have no out - Mclean is tasked with both somehow covering the back 4 and the gaps when our Fullbacks push all whilst on the ball expecting to drive past or beat the first press to open a passing opportunity. This is why my view that just replacing him with a natural CDM doesn't solve our problems. It needs a change from the manager where we either discipline Sara into playing closer to Mclean and not drifting or we play 3 midfielders centrally either with a CDM and double-pivot in front or an alternative. The most concerning thing is our two central midfielders lost possession 22 times between them (12 Mclean, 10 Sara). Comparatively, Livermore lost possession 5 times (the only really comparable midfielder as Kaymebe and Kone offered an attacking intent / threat that our midfielders don't). My personal view is I don't see how this changes without a change of manager. Injuries are a problem but we are making it far more of one than we need to.

I think I can see the risks as alluded to by LYB. Namely that the next appointment needs to be a meaningful one. I'd be totally against a Championship shock-jock like Warnock as it would only ever be a short-term jerry rig. Promotion ceased to be a viable aim for me weeks ago, as I realised we are in the midst of a total rebuild and kicking the can down the road fitfully chasing the top 6 at all costs doesn't benefit us. And LYB is quite right, meaningful candidates probably aren't plentiful at this exact moment. However, I think the damaging effect to the intangibles by persisting with Wagner at this point is something that needs to be stemmed and fast. Things like reputation are vital for a club like ours. The next move needs to be an admission by the club that mistakes have been made, we're way off where we should be, and a younger + motivated head coach appointed for the rebuild. If that isn't available now, then pay a steady hand what it takes for the rest of the season to at least stop the bleed. But the communication from the club needs to be crystal clear. Knapper wanted the big job. I look forward to seeing if he has what it takes 👍

Any where else and a Manager with (a) his recent record at other Clubs, (b) his record at Norwich City and (c) the poor quality of football being served up, would have been out the door 2 months ago. How long are we give this guy before serious damage is done to our Club? Every week we wait is one week nearer to dropping through trap door to League One.

A big problem maybe that it's obvious sooner or later Wagner is getting the boot, we as fans know it, the media knows it, Wagner probably knows it and you can guarantee the players know it. This must have a destabilising effect on the squad, lead to a massive feeling of lack of leadership, and ultimately when the going gets tough in a game nobody seems to want to take responsibility and get stuck in, they all just accept that they are going to lose and go missing. If Knapper fails to act fast, the fans will soon turn on him, that's for sure.

I'm inclined to agree, however I also think it comes back to the base system. I was saying to a friend last night that it's amazing we can have 11 players in our own half but still such massive distances in between them. A player like Fassnacht, who is a well-respected Swiss international, doesn't just become crap overnight. But playing him as a winger, which he doesn't seem to be, isolated against 2-3 defenders is going to severely reduce his usefulness to us. Hernandez, too, has his uses but if he's being relied on as a primary player in our build-up then it's bad for both us and the player.

As an ex-goalkeeper and goalkeeping coach myself, being a fully paid up member of the goalkeeper's union, had I conceded those three goals tonight I would be blaming myself for goals 1 and 3 and be thinking I could have reacted better to the deflection for the second had my positioning been slightly better.

He's on poor form but he's better than he looks currently. McLean is a worse regular starter than Onel.

To me this is a bizarrely backwards way of looking at Sara. Everything we see from him stats wise shows a highly creative player who is central to everything we do going forward. He's clearly a cut above anyone else in the team in these aspects of the game. To use a parma term, he's a weapon at this level. So it falls on the coach and the sporting director to put our best player in a position to succeed. So that means giving him less to do off the ball, less defensive work, more cover in behind etc etc. We have to prioritise that. Even if it means moving others around or even shifting formation. To be getting annoyed at Sara for not doing enough tracking back and defending is to entirely miss the point of having that sort of player. Kenny can be shoehorned into defensive midfield because, to be blunt, he isn't special in his natural position, he's just fine. Sara shouldn't be being shoved into the role he's in because he absolutely can be special when given the correct platform. I really hope that the second the January window opens up we've got something lined up to make this happen, otherwise its just a waste of a very good player.

Fair. And same. But it still hurts me to be second best to them. I could stomach being second best if we were also performing well, or perhaps we were both in the EPL. That’s the frustrating thing, they should still be catching us, preparing to meet us in the EPL.. but instead we’ve wasted opportunities and just capitulated over the last 18 months and surrendered East Anglian supremacy without a fight.

Sara is a great player but I don’t think he’s the type of player that just gets his foot on the ball and makes us tick in the way a Hoolahan did for years or Maddison or an Emi. I think he needs that player around him just as much as the others. I’ve come to hate Wagner’s philosophy and style personally. As much as I quite like Barnes I think 442 isn’t us and I’d just like to see a decent ball playing 10 again and decent AMs rather than poor wingers.

i have a Feeling MA might not hang around to long might be totally wrong But Delia & MWJ would only sell to someone they thought was right , ( their choice their shares ) that made the potential market a lot smaller , MA might not think like that he has the whole world to choose who to sell it to if he wants , i do not know him but he might not care about selling it to someone on a camel riding down carrow road as long as there is a good profit in it for him ,

Wagner reminds me so much of Lambert had success at one club and will never reach those heights again Every club who hired him wanted the Norwich city Paul Lambert but he just could not repeat it , Wagner is the same had success at Huddersfield and since then Nothing in fact long l runs without winning are becoming common 18 at schalke ! he will bounce about clubs when he leaves here just like Lambert has done all wanting that Huddersfield Wagner

All this nostalgia for Farke is well wide of the mark. In the pantheon of Canary managers he would be well down the pecking order behind Ron Saunders, Dave Stringer, Ken Brown, John Bond, Mike Walker 1.

Is the correct answer. Especially the bit I've put in bold.

I’ve read a few posts suggestioning Knapper needs more time to settle in and assess the situation before sacking Wagner. Initially I agreed with this, mainly because he is inexperienced in the role and I have concerns if he has the contacts needed to attract a decent manager. But the reality is we can’t just keep stumbling on with Wagner, throwing away another 2 goal lead at least partly due to his inadequacies as a coach means he needs to go now. It is hard to believe that the players still have faith in him and his ability to turn things around, and the fans certainly don’t. I don’t think that Knapper has to rush into appointing the new permanent manager before Christmas as we need to get the right person. But at this stage I struggle to see how any caretaker (such as Neil Adam’s or….and I can’t believe I’m saying this Andy Hughes!) could do any worse than Wagner. Who knows we might even unveil a Gary Oneil caretaker who does enough to earn the job permanently. we definitely need a n immediate change though.

I forgot to mention the chant of you're just a poor Daniel Farke.

There are 3 teams that have less points today (I'm excluding Everton for obvious reasons) than Farke had at this point his first season in the premier league (10). The gap gets bigger each year.

At the moment, the fewer games are available the more you should have to pay.

A new manager would get a free hit for 6 months to implement his ideas and has two transfer windows before have a serious push next season, a new manager lifts the dire atmosphere and the ground, a new manager gives a clean slate to everyone. What strategic plan is in play keeping a manager who we all know, and the players know is dead man walking? Your comments are far too short term, we need to assess the longer term plan.

I don’t think we put 4 passes together last night No philosophy can solve that

Worth agreeing with this post as I often disagree with GJL. Shows the problem of having an old lag as your back up with the intention of never playing him. Not really good enough and not getting better. Perhaps Reyes isn't good enough but playing would at least help his development. Long cost us points last night, doubt it could be worse.

No strategic value in replacing a manager that's won 3 in 13 (2 of those wins being lucky to say the least)? Sure. Doesn't need to be a name or an experienced candidate. There are plenty of managers in world football that would jump at the chance to manage this club in the Championship. The only way not replacing him makes sense at this point is if we have a manager lined up that's seeing out his contract somewhere.

It makes a lot of sense for Knapper to take his time and assess the resources we have at the club before making a decision about the coach. In theory I'm happy for him to wait and I'd certainly rather he made the right decision than a quick one. The problem is that Wagner isn't keeping his side of the bargain. If he keeps going on like this - shipping two goals in most games, not being able to hang on to two-goal leads, seeming to have no response to the weakness of our midfield defensively - he's going to have to be sacked, that's just how it is.

We probably couldn't afford him. Besides which, I not sure it would go down too well if Delia's was renamed The Meal Machine.

Of course you're correct, but we could at least be slightly better on the ball if Nunez and / or Gibbs were on the pitch. I'm not saying they're excellent but they can pass. At 2-0 up, a bit fortuitously, and Hwang going off, bringing on a Gibbs or Nunez over an unfit Barnes seemed the obvious option to help us take a bit more care with the ball.

Wagner is playing Supporters, the owners and all the Club for idiots. Whatever he may think of the squad that he has been given by S.Webber it is not correct to spout that it is just the players who lost the game, “ it is the team who cross that white line”. This is the most poorly coached and prepared team trying to enact the most idiotic tactics for Norwich that I can remember. Wagner must think that we are all blind, deaf, idiots. We can all see the woeful motivation , we can all see the lack of fitness and the lack of challenge, the lack of ideas when in possession, the lack of running when off the ball. Shambolic and completely unacceptable at any level. Shameful.

I agree with almost everything you say, but I'd point out that we do have one very skillful player in midfield - Sara - although even he is getting flakier by the week. But we can't even manage to successfully build our team around him. The Dad's Army approach has failed completely. The rationale for it was that it would make us stronger mentally - we're weaker. God knows what we do because we are now stuck with a load of slow, ponderous players on relatively high wages who we won't be able to shift. Webber's final gift to the club.

I agree, he needs to go. Time is up. But do you honestly think that things would improve under a new head coach? This squad is dire and even our best players are no better than average. I honestly believe this club is stuck in this position until there is real change at the top. I.e. Delia and Michael have stood down completely. Until then we’re just going to be stuck on this same path I fear.

Fassnacht was utterly woeful tonight as was onel everyone could see it bar him Holding out for 2-2 was embarrassing

I didn't expect anything this season to be honest. I never thought we had a chance of the top two, and the Playoffs were a big ask while we tried to rebuild/consolidate. I thought that meant we'd blood the youngsters alongside some old stagers to give them a bit of belief and steel. I thought that was what Barnes and Duffy were for. Did we ever think we could miss Josh Sargent this much? I assumed, somewhat naively, that we would actually play our biggest summer signing when he was fit, rather than stick with a player who was deemed not good enough for us in this league 3 seasons ago. Even so, I simply cannot believe the incompetence on display by our manager and coaching staff. The inability to see what is happening in front of their eyes. The lack of understanding on how to set up a team and how to ask players to perform. The stubbornness of sticking to the same format and expecting something different to happen. The fact that Fassnacht, time and time and time again ball watches rather mark or press his man, and no one shouts at him. That doesn't happen on a Sunday morning! David Wagner may well be a lovely bloke. A football manager he is not. He is completely out of his depth. I'd much rather see Reyes in goal than Long if Gunn is still unfit. I'd rather see Fisher, Warner, Sainz and Gibbs starting. I'd rather get Tomkinson and Kamara back from their loans in January and get them in the squad. And finally.................sign a fn**ckign defensive midfielder!!!!!!!!

Quite. Which is why I believe Knapper will tell the board to sack Wagner. As to when depends on whether he has settled on a replacement. All the posters calling for the deed to be done tonight seem to be overlooking that point. As to who it will be, a guess would be that it will be some bright, tactically aware coach few of us have heard of.

Hernandez has had 23 touches tonight but only attempted 6 passes. Of those, literally two of them have been successful. He shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.