David Wagner

[repman 635]

4 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Awful football manager. Surely there was better than this guy available when we were searching

It's become clear over Webber's time at the club that he doesn't really value the role of the head coach to improve teams. That's not to say he'd appoint literally anyone but with all 3 of his appointments here there feels like an element of laziness to them. In one of his first interviews after joining he mentioned what the difference was between his 2 years at Huddersfield, where they'd gone from bottom half to the playoffs. He said it was down to the fact they'd signed 15 new players. There's no doubt that having a good squad will help a lot, but I think most Norwich fans would agree that the impact of the coach is clear and to minimise that role is silly. 

[Big Vince 319]

20 hours ago, ricardo said:

We will do nothing with this defence. Conceding far too many shots on goal to be contenders. Free scoring earlier in the season just hid the obvious failing.

Norwich have never been a club for resolute defending, have they? Ever since John Bond came in and introduced "the Norwich Way" they have always been generous at the back. You can probably count on one hand the occasions when they haven't - Watson-Bruce; Mackay-Fleming? But even then, the former were relegated in '85.

Defending always seems a afterthought at this club. Whenever have they thought about building a team from the back? And to bring in a new sporting director called Knapper is a recipe for disaster. Caught knapping at the back will become a familiar refrain.

[S_81 838]

11 minutes ago, repman said:

I don't know who I'd want but all of those names you've mentioned would be a hard no from me. The truth is I don't see any manager who will be able to turn things around quickly enough to make it worth it. The last 2 seasons have been characterised by us trying to get promoted at all costs and it turns out we're nowhere near, it'd be foolish to keep chasing that goal when we know it's not sustainable. It's popular on here to say we're back to where we were when Webber took over but it's basically true. The squad needs rebuilding and trying to do that along with chasing promotion is a tough task. 

In my view, the next manager would be a young coach who is on an upward trajectory, instead of an experienced head who, like Wagner and Smith before him, has seen their career dip and is trying to arrest their own personal slide. 

I agree with you. But that will almost certainly require the club to buy someone out of contract elsewhere. It’s the logical thing to do though when you look at who is out of work and available. But they should have done that instead of appointing Wagner. But seemingly didn’t want to stump up. 

[repman 635]

2 minutes ago, S_81 said:

I agree with you. But that will almost certainly require the club to buy someone out of contract elsewhere. It’s the logical thing to do though when you look at who is out of work and available. But they should have done that instead of appointing Wagner. But seemingly didn’t want to stump up. 

I think it's linked once again to our refusal to press the reset button the last few years, you could argue we should've done it every year since 2020. There's a number of reasons I'm sure why we didn't but not doing it the last few years has been inexcusable. Hopefully there's an understanding from the board that there's no quick fix now with this squad, this last summer was a huge gamble going for experienced 'win-now' players and it doesn't look like it has paid off. It's hard to imagine any of the lads over 30 being key parts of the next successful Norwich team, but the reality is that a number of them are contracted here for at least the next 2 seasons. With the wages they collect it will be hard for us to move them on without paying a good chunk regardless.

[yellowrider120 782]

This quote from Wagner is truly worrying...................................

I was very pleased with how the players executed our idea to give Coventry a little bit of possession and make sure we defend from a lower block and be a threat on the transition. They put in real shift.

So the blatant negativity (some would even call it 'time wasting') from very early on in the match WAS deliberate then!! My God, if ever there was a 'red rag to a bull' this is it. If Wagner persists with these ridiculous tactics the natives will rebel big time well before Christmas and probably before Bonfire Night!

[Daz Sparks 1,180]

54 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Norwich have never been a club for resolute defending, have they? Ever since John Bond came in and introduced "the Norwich Way" they have always been generous at the back. You can probably count on one hand the occasions when they haven't - Watson-Bruce; Mackay-Fleming? But even then, the former were relegated in '85.

Defending always seems a afterthought at this club. Whenever have they thought about building a team from the back? And to bring in a new sporting director called Knapper is a recipe for disaster. Caught knapping at the back will become a familiar refrain.

A good analysis, not too wide of the mark I would say. 

Interesting that you refer to us as "they" more than once...

[FCC 77]

11 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

This quote from Wagner is truly worrying...................................

I was very pleased with how the players executed our idea to give Coventry a little bit of possession and make sure we defend from a lower block and be a threat on the transition. They put in real shift.

So the blatant negativity (some would even call it 'time wasting') from very early on in the match WAS deliberate then!! My God, if ever there was a 'red rag to a bull' this is it. If Wagner persists with these ridiculous tactics the natives will rebel big time well before Christmas and probably before Bonfire Night!

As we can’t tackle, is the transition when we kick off after they have scored?

[Corbs1 90]

6 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

The groupies ? 

"Adored celebrity?

Category B intelligence I’m afraid if you think support for current custodians has anything to do with “celebrity”. Your “Group” is scerortic. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,476]

8 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

t is clear that Wagner's days are numbered and that we are going nowhere with him at the helm.

Webber should take the task of wielding the axe upon his own shoulders. Neil Adams would be the ideal caretaker (performances might actually improve) giving the new man ample time to appoint his own man.

Have had a think about this. I certainly take the point and it has its merits, but I think (only think!) that on balance I disagree.

It does seem at the moment that we're going nowhere under Wagner, but not many would have said that after the first few games. Probably fair to see what happens when Barnes and Sargent are back - or to see whether Wagner can respond better to their absence. As a rule I don't like sacking coaches at the first sign of trouble (though given the end of last season you could obviously argue this isn't the first sign).

I think my other objection is that getting a caretaker in would just exacerbate the sense of drift - it's basically saying 'we've given up on this season'. I think sticking with Wagner for now gives him the opportunity to turn things around as a best-case scenario, and in the worst-case scenario you're basically using him as the caretaker, until Knapper has been here long enough to decide how we want to approach the next few years.

[shefcanary 2,446]

6 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

I think mr Warnock, sure he hates the colin nickname godlyO! - and rightfully so- btw! So let's give him respect.

I think he would make a good fist of this group and id fancy him to get us playoffs.what a way for him to sign off and end leave it there. Wagner only has to jan on paper so either a minimal pay off or just sit it out. Warncok in by xmas, time to assess and get his own people in seems like he would be great at then getting us prompted to me. His style okay, not to everyone's taste BUT he gets them drilled, hard to beat and focused and motivated, and with the quality (supposedly) we have on paper that would all be too much for this league to handle and promotion would have to be odds on. A good go. He would do likely a end of year deal, it assesses the players, the new man coming in can swing himself about and start a fresh as such, sw doesnt care as it it fails it wasnt him and he goes and if it works he is on a ray of light. 

The new man can lay claim to it being him and then summer comes, hopefully prompted, confidence High, warnock has done his bit, retires properly on another high and is let go -possibly upstairs, and the new man upstairs knows the lay of the land has full grip, prem money and can get his own new man with how he wants it to go.

Even if that plan was to be delayed a year, if - but i dont think it would- then i think its hard to see winners.

 

Thoughts?

@GodlyOtsemobor

Colin can **** off! Its only ever all about himself. Even if he got us to the EPL, I'd still hate him. Colin by name, Colin by Business, Colin by Nature.

[canarybubbles 1,938]

42 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Have had a think about this. I certainly take the point and it has its merits, but I think (only think!) that on balance I disagree.

It does seem at the moment that we're going nowhere under Wagner, but not many would have said that after the first few games. Probably fair to see what happens when Barnes and Sargent are back - or to see whether Wagner can respond better to their absence. As a rule I don't like sacking coaches at the first sign of trouble (though given the end of last season you could obviously argue this isn't the first sign).

I think my other objection is that getting a caretaker in would just exacerbate the sense of drift - it's basically saying 'we've given up on this season'. I think sticking with Wagner for now gives him the opportunity to turn things around as a best-case scenario, and in the worst-case scenario you're basically using him as the caretaker, until Knapper has been here long enough to decide how we want to approach the next few years.

I tend to agree, unless the next few games are a disaster (which considering the teams we are due to play is not unlikely). And despite all my doubts about Wagner's substitutions and the way he is setting the team up, how much blame can be laid at his door alone? It's not his fault his choice of strikers is now the eternal under-performer Idah and the truly woeful Hwang - there was at least a week after Sargent's injury when we could have got someone better in. And he has been unlucky with injuries, although Coventry, for example, are suffering from injuries just as much as we are at the moment and Robins seems to be making a better fist of it judging by yesterday's game.

At the moment we just feel like a team in unstoppable decline and whatever we do will be wrong. But surely we can't give up on this season just yet when we are one of a pack of teams any of which could end up in the top six.

[hogesar 9,732]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I tend to agree, unless the next few games are a disaster (which considering the teams we are due to play is not unlikely). And despite all my doubts about Wagner's substitutions and the way he is setting the team up, how much blame can be laid at his door alone? It's not his fault his choice of strikers is now the eternal under-performer Idah and the truly woeful Hwang - there was at least a week after Sargent's injury when we could have got someone better in. And he has been unlucky with injuries, although Coventry, for example, are suffering from injuries just as much as we are at the moment and Robins seems to be making a better fist of it judging by yesterday's game.

At the moment we just feel like a team in unstoppable decline and whatever we do will be wrong. But surely we can't give up on this season just yet when we are one of a pack of teams any of which could end up in the top six.

For me, personally, its too early but whether I like it or not Leeds has the chance to be pivotal.

Win it and the confidence alongside our home form could be a massive and a boost to players and fans.

Lose it badly and I can see the crowd turning easy especially with Farke in the opposition dugout.

[canarybubbles 1,938]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

For me, personally, its too early but whether I like it or not Leeds has the chance to be pivotal.

Win it and the confidence alongside our home form could be a massive and a boost to players and fans.

Lose it badly and I can see the crowd turning easy especially with Farke in the opposition dugout.

Well, if we lose it badly, it would be the perfect demonstration of how steep the decline has been over the last two and a bit seasons, and there will obviously be many voices saying what a disastrous decision it was to sack Farke. But there'll be no point aiming anger at Webber because he's going, so Wagner, I think, would become the obvious proxy.

I don't think we would sack him, but the atmosphere at CR would probably turn as poisonous as it was under the final days of Dean Smith. 

[Monty13 2,247]

13 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Happy to be corrected, but I understand that Knapper doesn't start till 27 November. There doesn't seem to be any point in Webber making a coaching change when he is leaving so soon: surely it makes more sense for the new SD to make that decision.

This is going to be frustrating for fans, but I suspect this is going to be a nothing season while Knapper (and the Attanasios) get their feet under the table. If I were a betting person, I'd have my money on a coaching change in the summer, but no sooner.

I think you’re right. Bar some massive uptick in form I imagine we will at some point this season, post Knappers arrival, see Wagner go, an interim put in place (Pelach?) and then an inevitable rebuild next summer.

This whole project needs a rethink and you’d expect with the share situation sorted and a new Sporting Director in place that’s the time for things to properly change.

I feel a bit sorry for Wagner, he feels a hopeful punt by Webber that hasn’t worked out. Doesn’t excuse his performance, but he’s also been unlucky with injuries, what genuine quality there is in this squad is mostly injured.

[king canary 7,664]

51 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I think you’re right. Bar some massive uptick in form I imagine we will at some point this season, post Knappers arrival, see Wagner go, an interim put in place (Pelach?) and then an inevitable rebuild next summer.

This whole project needs a rethink and you’d expect with the share situation sorted and a new Sporting Director in place that’s the time for things to properly change.

I feel a bit sorry for Wagner, he feels a hopeful punt by Webber that hasn’t worked out. Doesn’t excuse his performance, but he’s also been unlucky with injuries, what genuine quality there is in this squad is mostly injured.

Wagner felt like the biggest indicator that Webber was out of ideas. He'd had zero success since Huddersfield and it very much felt like an appointment based on 'I know this guy' rather than any vision for what Norwich should look like for the next 3 or 4 years.

I don't feel sorry for Wagner though- I think to be honest he was pretty lucky a team with Premier League promotion ambitions were looking at him considering his record in his last two jobs. I doubt any non Webber ran teams were considering him.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

Some of Wagner's team and selections and substitutions are questionable however there has to be some mitigation for losing both his strikers , Sargent after 4 games and the Barnes after 7, fof lengthy spells.

The first 4 games up to Sargents goal/injury at Huddersfield were showing encouring signs.

Not sure what any manager would do with our current pool of strikers?

Where Wagner isnt helping himself is that in the absence of these 2 strikers , he isnt then deploying our best hope (Rowe aside) of goals from midfield in Sara in an advanced enough position to be an effective goal threat.

As to whether he had any involvement in the signing of Hwang or not ?.....everyone involved in that is culpable

 

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

21 hours ago, repman said:

It's become clear over Webber's time at the club that he doesn't really value the role of the head coach to improve teams. That's not to say he'd appoint literally anyone but with all 3 of his appointments here there feels like an element of laziness to them. In one of his first interviews after joining he mentioned what the difference was between his 2 years at Huddersfield, where they'd gone from bottom half to the playoffs. He said it was down to the fact they'd signed 15 new players. There's no doubt that having a good squad will help a lot, but I think most Norwich fans would agree that the impact of the coach is clear and to minimise that role is silly. 

We don’t have bad players and tbf, he did bring in Farke 

[nutty nigel 7,601]

Was Farke a good appointment? I can think of four occasions when 'Farke Out' was a popular bleat on here.

[ridgeman 135]

I wonder if Wagner has lost the respect of the players. Going  to Coventry to defend for most of the game is pretty poor tactics in my view and listening to the commentary Bradley Johnson was saying they can’t go long because Idah is back helping the midfield out. We have gone from a side that could pass quickly and effectively to one that can’t. Thanks Webber.

 

[BroadstairsR 2,200]

On 08/10/2023 at 17:33, Robert N. LiM said:

Have had a think about this. I certainly take the point and it has its merits, but I think (only think!) that on balance I disagree.

It does seem at the moment that we're going nowhere under Wagner, but not many would have said that after the first few games. Probably fair to see what happens when Barnes and Sargent are back - or to see whether Wagner can respond better to their absence. As a rule I don't like sacking coaches at the first sign of trouble (though given the end of last season you could obviously argue this isn't the first sign).

I think my other objection is that getting a caretaker in would just exacerbate the sense of drift - it's basically saying 'we've given up on this season'. I think sticking with Wagner for now gives him the opportunity to turn things around as a best-case scenario, and in the worst-case scenario you're basically using him as the caretaker, until Knapper has been here long enough to decide how we want to approach the next few years.

A good case, but perhaps you have been less sceptical about Wagner's ability than I have.

I was never particularly armoured with the appointment in the first place quite simply because he had achieved little, apart from his success at Huddersfield. His most recent record of defeat after defeat was alarming to say the least. The fact that the pattern was repeated at Carrow Road in that alarming end of season run was sufficient to confirm his misplacement at our club.

He talks a good game and sufficiently so to convince me that his Summer reparations were sound. Unfortunately I, along with others it seems, was sufficiently duped to the extent that I do not even think that the current injuries can be an adequate excuse for our decline. Quite frankly it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that that particular bubble would have burst even with the Sarge and Barnes available because the man in charge seems such a tactically limited manager. Perhaps 'dinosaur' is too strong a label, perhaps I am influenced by the success of that young forward-thinking coach down the road but nevertheless my confidence in the man being able to produce a promotion winning side from what is, imo, a more than decent squad has become nil.

He needs to go. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[canarycop 209]

If we want to keep the foreign manager idea maybe go for Ralph Hasunhuttl or even that long linked Kjetil Knudsen. Give them a project supported by the new DOF. I think most fans would buy into that for a season or two as long as we had some direction

[Capt. Pants 4,276]

Pretty vital 8 weeks or so coming up for Wagner, as far as the fans are concerned. If there are defeats to Leeds and Ipswich there needs to be a pretty damn fine set of results in other matches.

Wagner's saving grace might be Knapper will barely have his feet under the table.

 

[Samwam27 532]

On 07/10/2023 at 22:22, hogesar said:

It didn't stop him sacking Farke or Smith so don't see that being relevant.

Who do you think wanted Hwang, Wagner or Webber? We had money in the bank at the time to get a Sarg replacement, but to sign an aged someone who had never played a game in england, let alone score was a diabolical decison, on top of hoping Idah would come good

[canarycop 209]

The boy Manning has scored again tonight for the u21s. 5 for the midfielder this season. Anybody think he may get in the first team squad at some stage. After all Wagner says he's not frightened to use youth......or is he. Who knows

[Samwam27 532]

1 minute ago, canarycop said:

The boy Manning has scored again tonight for the u21s. 5 for the midfielder this season. Anybody think he may get in the first team squad at some stage. After all Wagner says he's not frightened to use youth......or is he. Who knows

Doesnt seem to want Warner unfortunately 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

On 08/10/2023 at 23:29, king canary said:

Wagner felt like the biggest indicator that Webber was out of ideas. He'd had zero success since Huddersfield and it very much felt like an appointment based on 'I know this guy' rather than any vision for what Norwich should look like for the next 3 or 4 years.

I don't feel sorry for Wagner though- I think to be honest he was pretty lucky a team with Premier League promotion ambitions were looking at him considering his record in his last two jobs. I doubt any non Webber ran teams were considering him.

 

at the start of this season he seemed to have cracked it but last seasons woes are creeping back ,

we are not super fit , we have not got a system that works after it has been sussed out it seems ,

Some players are putting in terrible performances but still get picked ,

if we were playing really well and not scoring i would say yes strikers injured is the problem but the whole team is playing below their own  standard ,

Defence still weak and slow basic problems that should have been addressed ,

our main goal scoring striker injured we had plenty of time to get a replacement one that scored goals that is what we needed as Idah and Barnes at the time are not prolific ,

but like i said if the rest of the team were playing well but strikers were not then yes injuries can be blamed ,

but injury to strikers can not be blamed for defence errors midfielders putting in a 4 out of 10 performance 

[lake district canary 4,544]

The main way it seems to work under Wagner is if we score loads of goals and then if we let in a few, it doesn't matter as long as we outscore the opposition. Fine when it works, but without the end product of goals, then it inevitably means pressure is on the rest of the team. Wagner's success in the championship with Huddersfield was by putting a good run in after the new year and I would guess that will be the plan again - get the key players fit and confident, then see about pushing up the table. It's a tight league and anything can happen, but at the moment it's about consolidation.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

7 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

The main way it seems to work under Wagner is if we score loads of goals and then if we let in a few, it doesn't matter as long as we outscore the opposition. Fine when it works, but without the end product of goals, then it inevitably means pressure is on the rest of the team. Wagner's success in the championship with Huddersfield was by putting a good run in after the new year and I would guess that will be the plan again - get the key players fit and confident, then see about pushing up the table. It's a tight league and anything can happen, but at the moment it's about consolidation.

4 Really tough games coming up we could on present form lose 3 out of 4 

Leeds well we all know about them and should be strong and Farke ,

Middlesborough really hit form ,

Sunderland doing well jack clarke always a danger should of signed him instead of Rashica or Tzolis ,

Blackburn our hope of some points been in poor form but will give us a game i feel ,

As the league is so tight 4 points between 7th and 17th we could be closer to bottom than top come November 

 

[TheBaldOne66 697]

Reading his interview on the home page it’s clear that Wagner is a first class tool!

Results are not important, it’s about how we play! Really? If we played on the front foot I’m sure results would improve! 
 

Then he says after his subs on Saturday we controlled the game! Not what people who were there said! 
 

He’s clearly a poor coach if he thinks his subs changed the game in our favour.

i really hope Knapper brings in his own Coach and gets rid of this fraud quickly! 

[Google Bot 3,299]

4 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Results are not important, it’s about how we play! Really? If we played on the front foot I’m sure results would improve! 

As a football philosopher, he will always do what he believes in rather than what's necessarily the best short-term results at the club.  That's what you get if you bring in a coach to define a system and method of playing, their number one priority is to successfully coach and deploy a game plan.

Following on from that, If you play well, you get the results, of course is the thinking. 

Those who of hold a differing opinion on 'how' we should play are usually pacified when results are good, and frustrated/disillusioned when bad.

To defend the guy, he's not even had a full season here, he joined at a very turbulent time and successfully turned moral around quickly building a connection to the fans again.

Twice in those short periods he's found himself bereft of key players.   He's stubborn, and not all that dynamic, it's a tricky period right now and we've just got to sail it out and not paint this coach and this squad on the current scars it's trying to hide.