Playing or fannying around at the back?

[Canary Jedi 590]

 

When we were playing Farke-ball in the Champ and dominating lessor teams it was a joy to watch. 

Fast forward to now. Passing the ball sideways at the back, eventually goes back to the keeper who hoofs it long and we loose possession. It really seems like the team don’t know how to break down the opposition. 

Serious question - what is the measure of success with this style of football? Can we really expect to dominate at this level and carve teams open? We don’t have a Hoolahan or Maddison any more to run at teams and carve them open to create chances. What is this style of football realistically hoping to achieve?

What’s our “elevator pitch” to describe the attacking threat we are trying to achieve?

I’m hoping it’s just me that’s lost my way. Right now it seems like the team has lost its way also 😢

[The Bunny 314]

 

Quote

We don’t have a Hoolahan or Maddison any more to run at teams and carve them open to create chances

If a player displays talent like that, they have to be sold. "The model" necessitates it, apparently. 

[Jimmy Raggatip 61]

I don't think we can expect to dominate but we should be at least trying to take the game to teams at home

Edited March 6, 2022 by Jimmy Raggatip

[Yellow and Green 335]

3 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

When we were playing Farke-ball in the Champ and dominating lessor teams it was a joy to watch. 

Fast forward to now. Passing the ball sideways at the back, eventually goes back to the keeper who hoofs it long and we loose possession. It really seems like the team don’t know how to break down the opposition. 

Serious question - what is the measure of success with this style of football? Can we really expect to dominate at this level and carve teams open? We don’t have a Hoolahan or Maddison any more to run at teams and carve them open to create chances. What is this style of football realistically hoping to achieve?

What’s our “elevator pitch” to describe the attacking threat we are trying to achieve?

I’m hoping it’s just me that’s lost my way. Right now it seems like the team has lost its way also 😢

Dean Smith has said that he wants his teams to play out from the back but, if we can't break through the opposition's press, then they can hoof it long. 'Fannying around with it at the back' isn't worth the risk.

The problem is that we don't have the players who can do either. Our midfield has been exposed as being well below the required quality at this level and, without Idah up top, we have no one who can win headers or hold up the play. 

Our only threats are:

- If someone can play a through ball for Pukki to run onto (something that has rarely happened since Buendia left).

- If we manage to get Rashica on the ball in a counter attacking situation.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

When Krul  has the ball at his feet and you watch Gilmour in that space between their front line and their midfield he often positions himself at half way point between the two. He therefore always looking back towards Krul pointing either to his left or right for ball into space. Gilmour is at his best running forward with the ball looking for runners and space. I would like to see him almost behind their front player and invite a  20 yard pass from Krul into that space between the lines so that Gilmour has time and space to run onto it and to bring the ball out of defence and look for support rather than when we are losing possession by Krul kicking long when defence are under pressure.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,836]

'Farke ball was a joy to watch'

 

Yes, but only in the championship. Seems like people have short memories.

 

Farke ball works when you are the better team. When you can keep 60 to 70 percent possession all match. When the opposition respects you and let's you pass it around. Let's you keep the ball, and steps off of you.

 

Now, what happened when we tried that in the Prem against much stronger, better, faster and less respectful teams? We got bullied, tossed off the ball and got tonked.

[Mengo 825]

24 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

'Farke ball was a joy to watch'

 

Yes, but only in the championship. Seems like people have short memories.

 

Farke ball works when you are the better team. When you can keep 60 to 70 percent possession all match. When the opposition respects you and let's you pass it around. Let's you keep the ball, and steps off of you.

 

Now, what happened when we tried that in the Prem against much stronger, better, faster and less respectful teams? We got bullied, tossed off the ball and got tonked.

Reality . It's sometimes hard to take. But this is the reality of the here and now. So many living in the past. How we build into a premiership team is a debate in itself. So many experts with ideas. For me and I'm no expert it's all about the way we do our business.  We basically cannot compete at this level because of financial restraints. How this is rectified is another debate.

Premiership or championship . 🤔 

 

 

 

[lake district canary 4,552]

For me it was about sticking to the path - sticking with the style of football that Farke instigated, but gradually getting better at it so it could cope with PL football.  That may have taken much more time than we gave him.  We had a horrendous start to this season in many ways which ruined any plans we had - and we simply had to change from Farkeball to a defensive mode, simply to try and get points on the board. For the away Brentford game Farke said we needed to retirn a bit more to what we were used to - and it worked to the extent we got our first win.

It is my opinion that in that match we got rid of the thing that was holding us back - that first elusive win. That gave the players something to build on - and that Farke would have taken confidence from that to get us on track. We had to stick with it - for me there was no choice, so was amazed at what happened.

Sticking to the path was key - and we stepped away from it.  Yes, we probably would still go down, but we are in a new era with SAS and we will see what happens next season with them in charge - and presuming we go down, can they get us playing top of the table football like Farke did?  I'd be much more confident if DF was still in charge.

 

[ricardo 7,416]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

For me it was about sticking to the path - sticking with the style of football that Farke instigated, but gradually getting better at it so it could cope with PL football.  That may have taken much more time than we gave him.  We had a horrendous start to this season in many ways which ruined any plans we had - and we simply had to change from Farkeball to a defensive mode, simply to try and get points on the board. For the away Brentford game Farke said we needed to retirn a bit more to what we were used to - and it worked to the extent we got our first win.

It is my opinion that in that match we got rid of the thing that was holding us back - that first elusive win. That gave the players something to build on - and that Farke would have taken confidence from that to get us on track. We had to stick with it - for me there was no choice, so was amazed at what happened.

Sticking to the path was key - and we stepped away from it.  Yes, we probably would still go down, but we are in a new era with SAS and we will see what happens next season with them in charge - and presuming we go down, can they get us playing top of the table football like Farke did?  I'd be much more confident if DF was still in charge.

 

I somewhat agree. I feel we've lost the thing that made us different and reverted to the "sack and hope for the best crowd". We almost certainly weren't good enough but at least we had a style, an identity that made us unique. Sadly that has gone in a pointless and joyless quest to be better than we can ever possibly afford to be under the prevailing ownership. The hard question now is whether we can even maintain the "top 26" ambition. As always, time will tell.

[Mr Angry 1,571]

10 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

 

When we were playing Farke-ball in the Champ and dominating lessor teams it was a joy to watch. 

Fast forward to now. Passing the ball sideways at the back, eventually goes back to the keeper who hoofs it long and we loose possession. It really seems like the team don’t know how to break down the opposition. 

Serious question - what is the measure of success with this style of football? Can we really expect to dominate at this level and carve teams open? We don’t have a Hoolahan or Maddison any more to run at teams and carve them open to create chances. What is this style of football realistically hoping to achieve?

What’s our “elevator pitch” to describe the attacking threat we are trying to achieve?

I’m hoping it’s just me that’s lost my way. Right now it seems like the team has lost its way also 😢

Did you watch the start of this season under DF? Trying to play the same way as last season, trying to pass it out from the back and losing it time after time within 30 yards of our goal? The only difference if we lose it after hoofing it up the field is that we're losing it further away from our goal.

[Canary Jedi 590]

Today’s performance reminded me of this post. Sadly, still relevant and unanswered.

For me it’s about the trend … are we seeing in gradual improvements over time?

[astro 371]

10 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

Today’s performance reminded me of this post. Sadly, still relevant and unanswered.

For me it’s about the trend … are we seeing in gradual improvements over time?

There has been no improvement. 

[Badger 2,413]

On 06/03/2022 at 01:38, The Bunny said:

 

If a player displays talent like that, they have to be sold. "The model" necessitates it, apparently. 

😴

[Mella Yella 40]

Have we gone forward? we dont have a better team now despite all the money spent than those free transfers & third rate germans. We dont have a better manager now. We dont have a better style. And we dont seem to have the supporters on side either.

You dont walk well if you shoot yourself in the foot.

I'm trying to find one single positive, & I cant.  We had an exciting championship team, we had an excited crowd that was rocking, & we had a manager that loved it here. Once upon a time at Carra Rud.

Be careful what you wish for. Cannon fodder for a league that is dripping with blood money down the tables of the Casino of the super rich, where human rights are being flaunted by those owners, where goals are decided or disallowed by Var, & the road to the premiership is littered with the carcasses of once famous clubs while vultures circle overhead. Disappointed maybe, but the championship is more exciting than Manchester City.

[Nexus_Canary 1,028]

All I see is wobbly passes which build up into a set of hospital passes and a hoof or worse an opposition goal.

They did it with farkeball as well but the difference seems to be there is more reverse passing going on as there seems no other options.

It's like a strange hybrid of farkeball and hoootan defence.

In that we pass it around a bit then look totally bereft of any option or thought so tap it backwards as there is no forward option.

It's frustrating and not fun to watch 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,155]

Playing it around at the back is what you do if you don't have any passing options going forward or are looking to control a game when you're winning or are drawing against a better team, it shouldn't be used to build every attack because it doesn't lead to very good chances being created unless you have really top quality players who can create things out of nothing. It gives teams time to get back into shape and if you're playing a pressing side can lead to mistakes being made, especially if your defenders aren't great with the ball at their feet or strong and technical enough to hold off players who challenge them. 

We seem to fall into the same trap that a lot of teams do which is to overuse it because it feels safer and is less risky than playing a ball forward. A lot of managers seem to think that having your defenders pass the ball around to each other is the whole point of passing/possession based football when it really isn't, it's more important to control the game higher up the pitch and pin teams back, your defenders playing the ball between each other should only be used when no other options are available and it's better than just brainlessly hoofing it up the pitch, but if no passing options are available then questions need to be asked about the structure and tactical approach of the team because if you're going to play passing football there should always be at least 2 options available. 

In our case we pass the ball around at the back way too much and way too slowly which gives opposition teams time to get into shape, to start marking our players and to start pressing which is why we often end up passing it around then playing it long. We need to look for the forward pass much earlier and we really, really need (and have ever since Webber came to the club) some physically stronger and faster midfielders with the ability to hold onto/shield the ball when under pressure and run at players to make that forward pass less risky. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[yellowrider120 793]

9 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Playing it around at the back is what you do if you don't have any passing options going forward or are looking to control a game when you're winning or are drawing against a better team, it shouldn't be used to build every attack because it doesn't lead to very good chances being created unless you have really top quality players who can create things out of nothing. It gives teams time to get back into shape and if you're playing a pressing side can lead to mistakes being made, especially if your defenders aren't great with the ball at their feet or strong and technical enough to hold off players who challenge them. 

We seem to fall into the same trap that a lot of teams do which is to overuse it because it feels safer and is less risky than playing a ball forward. A lot of managers seem to think that having your defenders pass the ball around to each other is the whole point of passing/possession based football when it really isn't, it's more important to control the game higher up the pitch and pin teams back, your defenders playing the ball between each other should only be used when no other options are available and it's better than just brainlessly hoofing it up the pitch, but if no passing options are available then questions need to be asked about the structure and tactical approach of the team because if you're going to play passing football there should always be at least 2 options available. 

In our case we pass the ball around at the back way too much and way too slowly which gives opposition teams time to get into shape, to start marking our players and to start pressing which is why we often end up passing it around then playing it long. We need to look for the forward pass much earlier and we really, really need (and have ever since Webber came to the club) some physically stronger and faster midfielders with the ability to hold onto/shield the ball when under pressure and run at players to make that forward pass less risky. 

Your final paragraphs sums it up neatly. One can only hope that Sara gets up to speed with regular game time and operates in a deeper role thus allowing Nunez to push up and create some havoc. At the moment if this team does get promoted, the embarrassment of last season will be as nothing compared to the thrashings we will receive next season!  

[shefcanary 2,496]

2 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Playing it around at the back is what you do if you don't have any passing options going forward or are looking to control a game when you're winning or are drawing against a better team, it shouldn't be used to build every attack because it doesn't lead to very good chances being created unless you have really top quality players who can create things out of nothing. It gives teams time to get back into shape and if you're playing a pressing side can lead to mistakes being made, especially if your defenders aren't great with the ball at their feet or strong and technical enough to hold off players who challenge them. 

We seem to fall into the same trap that a lot of teams do which is to overuse it because it feels safer and is less risky than playing a ball forward. A lot of managers seem to think that having your defenders pass the ball around to each other is the whole point of passing/possession based football when it really isn't, it's more important to control the game higher up the pitch and pin teams back, your defenders playing the ball between each other should only be used when no other options are available and it's better than just brainlessly hoofing it up the pitch, but if no passing options are available then questions need to be asked about the structure and tactical approach of the team because if you're going to play passing football there should always be at least 2 options available. 

In our case we pass the ball around at the back way too much and way too slowly which gives opposition teams time to get into shape, to start marking our players and to start pressing which is why we often end up passing it around then playing it long. We need to look for the forward pass much earlier and we really, really need (and have ever since Webber came to the club) some physically stronger and faster midfielders with the ability to hold onto/shield the ball when under pressure and run at players to make that forward pass less risky. 

It's because McLean doesn't offer himself for quick 1-2's to change the focus of play at the back and create spaces, like a normal CDM would. It surely isn't beyond McLean to do this but on the evidence recently it is!

[ron obvious 1,517]

Something I've noticed lately is Andy O's willingness to step forward, which is one way out of the dilemma, but obviously has attendant risks if/when he misplaces his final pass or, even worse, loses the ball. I think WBA were ready for this yesterday & closed down his passing options, hence so many poor passes.

Passing around at the back is fine if you're doing it to pull the opposition out of shape & change the angle of attack, but it does require the midfield to move intelligently into space - & create space for each other - else it is indeed a waste of time.

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

Yesterday's attempt was probably our worst ever without actually conceding a goal. However many times did we fanny around only for Krul to hoof it up anyway? We just don't seem to know how to make it work or have the personnel on the pitch to play that way. We need a midfielder who can take the ball off defenders and create something. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Capt. Pants

[sonyc 5,541]

6 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Something I've noticed lately is Andy O's willingness to step forward, which is one way out of the dilemma, but obviously has attendant risks if/when he misplaces his final pass or, even worse, loses the ball. I think WBA were ready for this yesterday & closed down his passing options, hence so many poor passes.

Passing around at the back is fine if you're doing it to pull the opposition out of shape & change the angle of attack, but it does require the midfield to move intelligently into space - & create space for each other - else it is indeed a waste of time.

Agreed. This is definitely an answer to solve the high press. Andrew is more adept at it than Grant Hanley, who sometimes looks scared to make the midfield pass. 

It happens at the best PL teams who pass either directly forward or diagonally with two or three options often (just watching Arsenal earlier today a great example - but then Arteta was a disciple of Guardiola). You might recall our hey days in the early 90s. I'm sure you do. Our triangles all the way up the pitch were a joy to watch and we rediscovered that style under DF.

Gibbs is such a miss in the above regard. He had started to do what Oliver Skipp did so brilliantly before. Always an option. Gibbs has a great positional sense and is very mobile too. Ramsey plays far too far frward to be an effective substitute for that role. Just shows how we are missing a proper central midfielder with the injuries to Hayden and Gibbs at once. Likewise the outlet Giannoulis gives a team.

I suppose the international break on this occasion has come just at the right time! Normally, it's a nuisance.

I'm just hopeful we can be in the top two come 23rd to 30th November. In all my years watching and studying tables, stats etc...then if you occupy these positions at around this date it is an established pattern for the rest of the season. Not 100% nailed but an extremely reliable indicator of the end of season result.  Two points per game also will do it (✔️ for now) of course.

Just need those injured lads back in (Idah too).

In terms of your point on Andy O too, he is getting great experience in the Championship and against such teams as West B yesterday. It will do him no harm. And in him I believe we have one half of a great CB pairing in years to come. I can see him being worth a lot of money but I'm hopeful he stays with us and management continue to play him.

[Canary Jedi 590]

10 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

All I see is wobbly passes which build up into a set of hospital passes and a hoof or worse an opposition goal.

They did it with farkeball as well but the difference seems to be there is more reverse passing going on as there seems no other options. 

Agree. Farkeball wasn’t perfect but seemed a damned sight more effective than Smithball does. 
 

10 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

In our case we pass the ball around at the back way too much and way too slowly which gives opposition teams time to get into shape, to start marking our players and to start pressing which is why we often end up passing it around then playing it long. We need to look for the forward pass much earlier

I’d genuinely like to hear from Smith what our approach/strategy is. Is the way we play actually what he wants or are the players not executing in the way he wants? Either way, what is the style of play we’re trying to achieve? 

For example, Mike Walker used to talk about (during first stint) trying to suck the opposition in then hitting them with a counter-attack. Great, so then we all as players and fans understood the plan! Maybe I missed the memo with the plan of our current team 🤔

[kenfoggo 247]

Walking five passes forward with the ball , then stopping and turning to pass it square or twenty yards backwards IS the Dean Smith order for play. The main practitioner of this system is Grant Hanley and he is the on field representative of the Head Coaches ‘ game plan. Boring, non effective, stultifying tactics originating from the great footballing brain of Dean Smith. I have had more entertainment watching paint dry than the last 90 minutes of Dean Smith’s style of soccer. NCFC will be getting no more of my hard earned until something changes at Carrow Road. That would include getting rid of McLean, Hanley, Dean Smith, Shakespeare and all the others tainted with this negative , boring, style.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

10 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

Agree. Farkeball wasn’t perfect but seemed a damned sight more effective than Smithball does. 
 

I’d genuinely like to hear from Smith what our approach/strategy is. Is the way we play actually what he wants or are the players not executing in the way he wants? Either way, what is the style of play we’re trying to achieve? 

For example, Mike Walker used to talk about (during first stint) trying to suck the opposition in then hitting them with a counter-attack. Great, so then we all as players and fans understood the plan! Maybe I missed the memo with the plan of our current team 🤔

Pretty sure Smith has said he wants us to a pressing team that look to exploit the transition through speed. It’s looked ok at times but I’d agree it’s not clicking. Injuries hamper this somewhat and inevitably the system works differently against different set ups. It’s less pretty than Farkeball but it’s not a system devoid of entertainment when working, neither is it hoof ball. Farkeball had the distinct issue of being ineffective in the top league without the world class players to deliver it. It took him a season to establish it in the championship too. Smith has got us winning earlier so hopefully there’s more chance to establish it for the players plus some additions that can already play it to come so we can have a bash at staying up next season with a different tactic 

Edited September 19, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[Ian 1,136]

I feel like I am living in a parallel universe here - does nobody remember us struggling to break teams down when Buendia was missing from the squad?

At the moment I don't think we quite have that same level of quality as he offered.

 

 

 

 

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

Essentially, the idea of playing around at the back involves trying to bring the opposition up so a counter can stick. However, what you're often seeing is an opposition team not taking the bait and sitting deep.

[tea total 79]

In the second half the cb's, especially AO, tried to initiate something by bringing the ball into midfield areas. Apart from that there was no success at trying to get the West Brom defence disorganised. Not too many options at times for the FB's apart from playing backwards or down the line which played into WBA hands.

[hogesar 9,776]

Why are we using one game as the pointer? Why the West Brom game?

Why not Coventry? 61% possession, 3 goals, clean sheet, 650 odd passes with 88% passing accuracy.

That's actually better than most performances under Farkes earlier championship games.

We played through the lines very well at times in that game, still without a proper left back or midfield.

We can't really press how Smith wants us to until we have a recognised DM who's disciplined enough for the role. However at times this season our counter pressing showed an area where we were significantly lacking under Farke and what may have been a real help in the Prem.

[Felixfan 53]

The best teams always have someone who can run with the ball and whether or not there is always an end product it does raise the crowd. Onel does this on the wing but that’s about all.

[canarybubbles 1,952]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Why are we using one game as the pointer? Why the West Brom game?

Why not Coventry? 61% possession, 3 goals, clean sheet, 650 odd passes with 88% passing accuracy.

That's actually better than most performances under Farkes earlier championship games.

We played through the lines very well at times in that game, still without a proper left back or midfield.

We can't really press how Smith wants us to until we have a recognised DM who's disciplined enough for the role. However at times this season our counter pressing showed an area where we were significantly lacking under Farke and what may have been a real help in the Prem.

You're right. Why not pick Coventry? Or Millwall? But equally, why not pick West Brom or Cardiff?

You have excellent rhetorical skills, Hogesar. You are very good at using statistics which support your case and ignoring those which don't.

For example, a couple of your recent posts have pointed out that we won 'more points' under Smith than under Farke. One point, actually. Singular, not plural. Post after post talking about six wins in a row. Perfectly true, but no mention of how those wins were achieved. Similarly, your eulogies about his time at Brentford. Never any mention of where he actually finished three seasons in a row (midtable).

That makes you a good rhetorician. But at some point both you and I are going to have to face reality. Either Smith gets us up at the end of the season or he doesn't. And no amount of rhetorical skill will be able to argue for or against that.

Edited September 19, 2022 by canarybubbles