Are we in a spin

[Canaries north 155]

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,797]

You spin me right round..

[Gordon Bennett 914]

Personally I'm quite philosophical about the big name departures as they've gone to massive clubs and while some will disagree I think we've got really good money for them all things considered. Sara had outgrown the Championship and Rowe being a plank forced our hand a little bit. As a general rule though I'd never keep a player who isn't 100% committed and wants to be elsewhere, the desire to be here is the foundation upon which everything else is built IMO.

It's never nice losing good players but I think the fact they've gone abroad and we won't face them, and that we are signing multiple players as part of the rebuild has softened the blow. People can see a clear strategy too which hasn't been the case in the past. The Kamara situation is a bit odd, the fact he's not prepared to roll his sleeves up and work hard to get into the team is a big red flag for me. Again IF the money is right then he can go IMO.

All that said if Sarge and/or Gunn also depart in the next week or so then I suspect the general mood will be very different.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,423]

I’m not exactly happy about Sara going but I’m realistic about it. I’m not happy about Rowe going but with his actions and attitude I’m thrilled at the price we’ve extracted. I’m ambivalent to Idah going but with his Celtic connection and the deal with done I’m happy with the business side of it.

We’ve sold one player for a large profit who was going to go regardless of our wishes, one want away academy player for almost £10m pure profit, and another want away academy player for top whack.

We’ve bought young talent for a decent price and done a far bigger squad overhaul than we thought possible before the window. Just need a McLean upgrade after the Dutch lad signs and we’re golden. Of course I’m happy!

[BigEars 29]

I think there are positives and negatives.  The debt swap for equity puts us in a much better position financially and while i guess we are overspending by about £10m per year, we have more money to spend from the transfers than we could have done, despite the delayed receipts.  I’m not so sure the Rowe deal was as good as pumped up to be, probably £12m price next year plus add ons, and the money we have bet on Crnac looks very high.

I am content to back Knapper for now.  We have spent big on young players in the hope they develop.  If they do, the model will work.  If not we will be struggling.  That comes down to Knappers judgement and the training.  All champs clubs are in the same boat and picking winners isnt easy.  

But we have better resources now, although we will still need to lose Gunn, Hanley, Duffy, Stacey, Sarge and Barnes before we can balance the income, probably next year for most.  In the meantime we need to win some games, buying from overseas when young and cheap inevitably means there will be some knock back as the season progresses.

[Icecream Snow 777]

I'm reserving judgement till the window closes. We've signed some players with promise Cordoba, Crnac, Forson (and Chrisene to a lesser extent) but honesty feels like it could go either way.

[Yobocop 1,444]

38 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

I’ll try and sum it up in less than 3 sentences. 

We knew very early on that this would be the plan when Wagner was booted out and we bought a manager in who would be willing to play youth players, therefore opening the door for some big departures. 

also we have seen this before when we’ve sold heavily then actually ended up being stronger for it

not forgetting In 2/3 of the cases of our transfers out, the players made it pertinently clear they didn’t want to be here so that straight away tells you how ‘happy’ some fans are to have seen them depart 

I think rather than the term happy you should’ve have put ‘have grown accustomed too’ 

[Mason 47 1,924]

I think the 'relaxed' perception comes from those in charge backing up their words with actions.

Pretty much everything Knapper has said he would do, we've seen evidence of thus far. It's still an uneasy truce IMO but for now it's moving in the right direction

Long may it continue

[JonnyJonnyRowe 972]

1 hour ago, Canaries north said:

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

I was contemplating this just yesterday.

Robert Chase sells a player for a BRITISH RECORD transfer fee, and he's hated.

Current regime flogs Jonny Rowe for probably somewhere around the lower end of what we thought his value was, and everybody saying its great business.

I don't really know what the answer is, other than perhaps that the fans were harsh on Chase and the economic realities of trying to balance the books at a club of this size.

[chicken 3,084]

11 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I was contemplating this just yesterday.

Robert Chase sells a player for a BRITISH RECORD transfer fee, and he's hated.

Current regime flogs Jonny Rowe for probably somewhere around the lower end of what we thought his value was, and everybody saying its great business.

I don't really know what the answer is, other than perhaps that the fans were harsh on Chase and the economic realities of trying to balance the books at a club of this size.

The sale of Sutton is veeery different to the sale of Rowe. Sutton is Norfolk through and through. Chase held a press conference where he lied to fans and the media which led to the famous picture of the Sutton glare. Sutton had been sold.

We were selling after a campaign in Europe, in the top tier. At a time when TV money was only starting to bite. Sutton was a first team regular and quality.

Chase spent club money on buying land rather than players to keep us in the premier league. He got greedy. It didn't pay off.

Rowe has been fit for half a season out of two in the championship. He's very young, and it would appear, a bit daft.

I don't see any fans 'ecstatic' with the sales of Sarah or Rowe, it was pretty much an eventuality. We've also been here before. Mostly we cut our cloth accordingly and launch a new project with fresh impetus.

[Canaries north 155]

The only way I can look at it is that we have become so disillusioned over the past few years that we are desperate for something new.

The worry is we are going into the season with Duffy and Hanley being at least one of our central defenders and a manager who plays a style they will really struggle with. At the same time losing some very good players at this level and trying to bed in a number of young players, new to the country and stepping up levels in football terms. This is going to be a long process and I really do hope it works but I do feel a huge amount of patience is going to be needed. After saying that we will probably win 4 0 tomorrow. It's a funny old game. 

[BigEars 29]

5 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

The only way I can look at it is that we have become so disillusioned over the past few years that we are desperate for something new.

The worry is we are going into the season with Duffy and Hanley being at least one of our central defenders and a manager who plays a style they will really struggle with. At the same time losing some very good players at this level and trying to bed in a number of young players, new to the country and stepping up levels in football terms. This is going to be a long process and I really do hope it works but I do feel a huge amount of patience is going to be needed. After saying that we will probably win 4 0 tomorrow. It's a funny old game. 

You touch on my biggest fear right now.  Sheff U and Coventry are tough games, particularly with so much flux in our squad, style etc.  two defeats and I doubt the crowd will be at all accepting let alone ecstatic.  If we go in to the break with 1 point from 4 games, it could hit the confidence of these younger players.  And we could look a bit of a mess given the Rowe and Kamara issues..  Ok, its too early to say tomorrow is must win, but i do think a good performance is a must.

[TheGoogler 604]

I think we have to accept a few things.

1. The past couple of seasons have generally not been good. Outsiders look on and see our sixth place finish and probably think we should be happy. But we know this is a team with considerable issues. You can't keep going, season after season with the same group of players and the same culture at the club expecting the next season to be different. Changing a manger can help - but often when the players are the same, there's only so much a new manager can do. 

2. To make the sort of wholesale changes, you need the money to do it. That means having to sell when the opportunity arises. Last season I think we were severely hampered by our players simply not having the sort of interest that they seem to be commanding this year. It took until Max Aarons was sold to really allow us even the smallest wiggle room. This season we got the money we needed to keep the club running from the sale of Sara - and after that we've seen Idah and now Rowe sold giving us the luxury of funds to actually make some of the changes that Ben Knapper wants to make. 

I don't think anyone is "happy" about what is happening. I think people are intrigued. Interested to see how a new sporting director shapes the squad in his image, particularly armed with a little cash. Interested in how the new head coach can improve, mould and bring along a team. 

[Iwans Big Toe 382]

3 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

There are no clubs in the world that are not selling clubs. We are currently linked with a Real Madrid player.

 

 

[canarybubbles 2,199]

Many of us were originally happy with Webber's summer transfer window that turned out to be a disaster, which shows how impossible it is to judge a window until much later in the season, and perhaps even further ahead.

My own feeling at the moment is that something like this had to happen. We had been on a downward spiral for two seasons, Wagner stabilised us last season but did almost nothing to put us on course for a new beginning, and now we have to make tough decisions, take risks, and hope they come off. 

One thing I like about Knapper is that he had almost instant replacements for the players we lost, which suggests he is a much better forward thinker than Webber. This may come back to bite me in the bum, but I don't see any way we'll have a repeat of the ridiculous handing of a four-year contract to a coach who is fired ten matches later with only the possibility of Lampard as a replacement and then a desperate snatch at Smith when he became available. It seems like Knapper will spend more time getting his head down and doing his job and less time picking fights with fans.

It may all turn to dust if the new signings don't work out or we are very unlucky with injuries, but Knapper is sending out lots of the right signals in my opinion. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

I said a coiple of weeks ago that we're doing the same as Robert Chase was 30 yrs ago and was chastised for

[Jason Shackell’s Limp Tack 134]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I said a coiple of weeks ago that we're doing the same as Robert Chase was 30 yrs ago and was chastised for

I'm not sure it is, as some one else has mentioned above. Chase sold Sutton, a player who had not yet outgrown the club, or expressed a desire to leave,when we were at our zenith. Gabby had outgrown us and Rowe has had his ear bent. We're in a chronic need for a rebuild, we had a competitive squad at the time we sold Sutton. 

[LaUnionCanary 150]

I believe from (probably faulty) memory that Chase made a statement " if Sutton is not here next season, I won't be either" which led later to that stare From Sutton when sold.

[andyc24_uk 79]

The goalposts for what we are trying to achieve have moved as well. Webber's targets were  (1) Self-sufficiency/minimize financial damage and (2) Get us into the Premier League at least once every few seasons to capture the prize money and parachute payments that make (1) possible.
 With the way the ownership has changed over the past 18 months and it becoming increasingly clear that the form of self-sustaining model we were operating to previously is sadly just not possible in this day and age, this is no longer the case. Knapper's targets are more like (1) Develop a player-trading conveyor belt that generates consistent profits to be reinvested in the club (and, potentially, returns for investors down the line depending on how exactly Attanasio's comments about funding signings shake out) and (2) Become the new Brentford or Brighton - A stable, mid-table Premier League club focused on data-driven recruitment.

Could we have achieved Webber's targets by holding onto the squad we had last year? Possibly. We were good enough for 6th; gambling on our finances and adding in maybe one or two more half-decent players would probably have been enough to get us into the playoffs again this season. but that then would mean everything would hinge on promotion and if we failed, we'd likely be looking at a Derby style situation where we spent way above our means, didn't get the financial rewards, and ended up in a very serious financial hole. Sad as I am to see Sara, Idah and Rowe depart, I'm glad that's not the route we've taken. Selling key players now is what allows us to take the next step towards the new targets that I think Knapper is aiming for.

Instead, we've gone for a massive rebuild project not just of the first team squad but honestly of what the club as a whole is as far as I can see. It's clearly what our incoming owners envisioned and Attanasio putting his money where his mouth is with stepping up to majority ownership and clearing the debts means we're working from a solid, stable base and can now afford to implement longer term strategies for building the player trading pathway instead of losing significant parts of any income to pay down debt. This is going to take a season or two to come to fruition, but I think we'll start seeing results by the second half of the year as players begin to click with JHT's style of play/coaching and these young signings start to reach their potential.

[andyc24_uk 79]

Sara's exit hurts because he's one of the best players we've had at the club in a long while and deservedly a fan favorite. Saying that, he absolutely deserves to be playing at a higher level, and I can understand how being one of the leading players in Turkey and playing Champions League football for a decently competitive side is probably a better move for him than going to a Wolves or Fulham or Everton and being a rotation option in the Premier League. We got good money for a player who needed to take the next step in his career, which we weren't able to offer him.
Idah's move also makes sense - there's clearly a good player in there but for various reasons he's not been able to make it work consistently and wasn't going to become the 20-goal-a-season striker we hoped he might be when he first broke through. If he can do that at Celtic, I'll be delighted for him, and the transfer fee we extracted was one of the best bits of business I've ever seen from this club.
Rowe confuses me. I can only think that his agent is a poisonous voice in his ear because he seemed happy enough last season and even in pre-season this year and assuming he stayed fit, he fits the right age profile and potential to have been one of our key players going forward. Going to Marseille, a team with major ethical questions over multiple of their signings, in a one-team league they have no hope of winning, with major financial issues looming over basically every club due to their TV rights chaos, really does seem like a short sighted move. I suspect he's been led up a dead end by his agent and we might see a very promising career stall unfortunately. 
 

The players we've brought in are clearly ones we've been scouting in depth for a good long while. I'm far, far happier seeing us bring in a complete unknown youngster from the Polish leagues who we've evidently been watching for a long time than I was last year when Webber clearly reached into his grab-bag of cheap, aging bargain bin players who struggled to get on the bench at other teams and pulled out Danny Batth with a few hours of deadline day left to go. 

[BigEars 29]

I agree with your comments, Andy, about the Webber model versus the Knapper model.  The Webber model is frankly more risky - when it works it works well because the prem money solves everything.  But the last couple of seasons have shown how fast it crumbles when it diesnt work - we have been completely reliant on MA to bail us out and without his cash injection we would have sold sara, rowe, idah and sarge this summer just to pay off the debts.  I doubt we could have spent any money at all - you could say webber cost Delia the club.

The knapper model is safer but its what every champ club is trying to do.  We have an advantage right now because of the cash injection but we need to make good choices on recruitment if we are to keep any advantage over the other non-parachute clubs.  I doubt our advantage will materialise this season with too many young oversea players to learn the league, but if our choices are good we will have some sales money to go again.

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

You have to be pragmatic we were always going to sell this summer.

We kept sarge, gunn and McClean , sainz who were essential. 

We sacrificed Rowe and a big deal came in for Sara 

I'm sounding like mystic meg aka @MC_NCFC but it went exactly the way I predicted at the end of the season.

So in a spin.... Nope 

[hertfordyellow 462]

It all comes down to trust and trust there is an overall strategy. As others have said, when a player has left there seems to be a new one lined up without any fuss or fanfare. The signings all make sense, fit into a club ethos and are signed with JHT's consent.

I'm more relaxed than I thought i'd be, but I guess I've seen enough from Knapper to trust the process and expect a Farke season (transition) anyway so not expecting play-offs. Now is the time to lose characters like Rowe, Idah and Kamara. It will be a season of change and if they don't believe in the clubs direction then see you later, we'll miss you for a bit, but forget you soon.

[kenfoggo 261]

The club is NOT “in a spin”! This is the new normal. The Supporters have come to expect a constant churn of talent as it struggles to balance the books by buying cheap players to develop and sell on at a profit. The only long stay players will be end of career old players like Hanley, McLean, Duffy, Barnes just marking time until retirement, struggling to keep fit, keep up and stay relevant. The younger squad players will always see Norwich City as a stepping stone in their career towards a bigger club. This is the reality of supporting Norwich. We may get excited by watching players like Maddison or Buendia but we know this is only temporary and that they will be moved on when the price is right.

[jaberry2 769]

11 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

I'm spinning around, get out of my way..

[Captain Holt 580]

11 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

Phwoar you must have felt good about that post to make it’s own thread, aye whingebag? 

[Nuff Said 5,960]

3 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I said a coiple of weeks ago that we're doing the same as Robert Chase was 30 yrs ago and was chastised for

That’s like saying recent rioters who threw bricks at the police were only doing the same as Jimmy Anderson.

[Capt. Pants 5,008]

I haven't read all the responses but from my perspective the sales were out of necessity having to cut our cloth accordingly. Knapper may be dressing it up as a 'trading model' but it's nothing new. Neither is a new Head Coach bringing in new players to build his own squad.

I'll reserve judgement until we get to 50 pts.

[Herman 11,136]

20 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

I'm spinning around, get out of my way..

I'm so dizzy, my head is spinning. It's like a whirlpool.

[horsefly 5,301]

11 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I posted this in a previous thread but wondered what the general consensus was. 

 

 

"Under previous owners (not he Americans) this would have been seen as selling the crown jewels. Now fans are ecstatic.

In seasons before we were praising getting early business done and being settled for the new season. Now it's for holding out for the right money even if it leaves us in flux at the start of a season and giving other clubs a few games head start so be it.

We are openly promoting our policy of getting young players in the team and being willing to sell them on as a recruitment tool but when a young player sees an offer from a bigger club turned down gets the hump and we wonder why. 

I am not knocking the club at all. Only a few clubs in the world are not selling clubs in the end and we are definitely not one of them. I am just trying to say, some of the things that are happening at the club have in the past been taken in a very different way. Are we in a honeymoon period. Probably, and if this all works then long may it continue. I hope people have patience as personally I feel this will take 2 or 3 seasons to see any real results. I obviously hope I'm wrong."

 

 

Tonight I went out for a couple of drinks with friends, all of whom support different clubs up and down the pyramid and they are amazed how happy we are. They do to a man agree Idah was a no brainer but are amazed how relaxed we are, and in some cases ecstatic about the transfer business so far. We all try to be positive at the start of every season but I don't think many teams fan base would be this easy going about our better players leaving. 

The club have been upfront about the necessity of this business model for some time. When Maddison was sold (absolutely the crown jewel), I expect many of us felt deflated. Little did we expect that the investment that his sale enabled, into a new scouting system and transfer policy would pay off so brilliantly so quickly. Maddison had left but we ended up playing some of the best football ever seen at CR with a squad of players many had never heard of, or considered to be lower league journeymen. 

I suspect that is why many of us are pretty happy about the current transfer period. Yes we have seen a lot of money come in through sales of our top talent, but that has been necessary to secure the club's financial situation. But we have also invested in some genuinely  exciting prospects. Whether they will pay off remains to be seen, but we have evidence from the past that this has worked very well. Personally I like the look of what Knapper and Thorup are doing, so until proven otherwise I intend to remain optimistic about the current season. It will take at least a couple of months before we can genuinely assess whether we look to be moving in the right direction.