Still no links to defensive midfielders

[Jim Smith 2,610]

I just don’t get it. I find it inconceivable that anyone can watch our opening two games (and indeed last three seasons) and not see that this is an absolute priority for us. Just look at the pathetic tackling  for the first goal and at various other times through t the first half snd how it left our defence way too exposed. Any time we give the ball away the opposition are straight in at our defence. 

Failing to recruit in this position will in my view be total incompetence. Kenny and Nunez are not strong and positionally disciplined enough to do it. 

Edited August 18 by Jim Smith

[Soldier on 290]

During the match vlog Connor said we aren’t looking to sign one.

seems odd when we were linked with Varane soon after he arrived.

[Yellow and Green 352]

19 minutes ago, Soldier on said:

During the match vlog Connor said we aren’t looking to sign one.

seems odd when we were linked with Varane soon after he arrived.

That was when Wagner was in charge, who played with one midfielder dropping deep, in between the centre halves. 

I guess Thorup hasn't made it a priority - instead preferring players who are flexible and play multiple roles. 

You'd hope it would be a priority, if we were to ever get in the PL.

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

It's odd as any football manager fan can see we are screaming for one but the professional coach doesn't feel the same.

Like I can forgive smith and Wagner for being clueless but maybe Hoff feels someone can already do it? 

[Danke bitte 1,155]

19 minutes ago, Yellow and Green said:

I guess Thorup hasn't made it a priority - instead preferring players who are flexible and play multiple roles. 

This is the kind of idealism that shafted us last time we were promoted - believing we could move to a 433 under Webber. I understand the stance of not looking for an out and out DM sweeper but the chat about at least having a player that adds ballast to the centre has been going on for years. 

I said before, is a DM within our price range just unobtainable owing to the fact it’s a position every team wants to fill? Maybe there’s data to suggest football is moving away from this atypical position and we’re trying to get ahead of the curve?

So many people’s observations remain true though - who is providing that bite in the centre?

[Badger 2,745]

I thought the idea was that one of the full backs takes this CDM role when we are in possession, so that the CMs can play higher up?

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

I thought the idea was that one of the full backs takes this CDM role when we are in possession, so that the CMs can play higher up?

Well yes - seems people don’t appear to understand that a) Wagner’s system didn’t specifically need one and b) Hoff’s doesn’t appear to either.  

[CardiffCanary 163]

Wagner made it clear that his system didn’t need one … a flawed one at that.

I still think that a midfielder with a bit more defensive nous is needed even if it’s not your typical CDM

[Channon’s Windmill 416]

I keep reading that tradition CDMs are out of fashion, no one plays them, we don’t need one and anyone who thinks we do is an old fossil.

OK let’s call it something different then, we still need a midfielder who can hold position, pre empt and break up play and put the odd tackle in when out of possession….. we don’t have one and 4 goals against (plus 3 in the cup) suggests that maybe the case. 

Our midfield is wide open so many times and our CBs suffer for that.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Exemplified further by bringing on the club's 'hatchet man' Liam Gibbs yesterday to try and close out a game.

Even the biggest clubs know the importance of this role in the likes of Rhodi or will break the bank for them in Rice and Caicedo.

We for some reason, think we're either above that, or mistakenly believe we already have players here to perform that role effectively

Throrup can spent as much time as he likes implementing whatever style he is attempting to but without screening midfielders who can spot danger in midfield in the way Skipp used to , we will continue to be played through our midfield too easily

[BigFish 2,283]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I just don’t get it. I find it inconceivable that anyone can watch our opening two games (and indeed last three seasons) and not see that this is an absolute priority for us. Just look at the pathetic tackling  for the first goal and at various other times through t the first half snd how it left our defence way too exposed. Any time we give the ball away the opposition are straight in at our defence. 

Failing to recruit in this position will in my view be total incompetence. Kenny and Nunez are not strong and positionally disciplined enough to do it. 

We all know you don't get it Jim.

However we are not getting one because the systems the coaching staff want to deploy don't need one. That is not to say we don't need to add quality to our midfield but it won't be a CDM. It could well be an 8 who is disciplined, holds position and will press, an 8 if you like, but it won't be a CDM. You might as well save your breath.

Edited August 18 by BigFish

[Badger 2,745]

19 minutes ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

I keep reading that tradition CDMs are out of fashion, no one plays them, we don’t need one and anyone who thinks we do is an old fossil.

OK let’s call it something different then, we still need a midfielder who can hold position, pre empt and break up play and put the odd tackle in when out of possession….. we don’t have one and 4 goals against (plus 3 in the cup) suggests that maybe the case. 

Our midfield is wide open so many times and our CBs suffer for that.

It's the natural concomitant of the high-press game, which is very much en vogue in modern football.

If the opposition "beats the press" teams do look very open, not just City. If one of your midfield players does not press, it makes it less effective, so modern coaches tend not to have a midfielder holding space as it makes the pressing less effective.

[Paul101 191]

1 hour ago, Nexus_Canary said:

It's odd as any football manager fan can see we are screaming for one but the professional coach doesn't feel the same.

Like I can forgive smith and Wagner for being clueless but maybe Hoff feels someone can already do it? 

they both brought in a defensive player , both turned out to be rubbish this did bring players in

[BigFish 2,283]

37 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Exemplified further by bringing on the club's 'hatchet man' Liam Gibbs yesterday to try and close out a game.

Even the biggest clubs know the importance of this role in the likes of Rhodi or will break the bank for them in Rice and Caicedo.

We for some reason, think we're either above that, or mistakenly believe we already have players here to perform that role effectively

Throrup can spent as much time as he likes implementing whatever style he is attempting to but without screening midfielders who can spot danger in midfield in the way Skipp used to , we will continue to be played through our midfield too easily

None of these players mentioned are CDM, or are asked to play as such.

[Robert N. LiM 6,299]

I think CDM is now being used to mean 'midfielder with positional sense' or 'midfielder who can tackle'. Would be happy if we signed one of those.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

37 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think CDM is now being used to mean 'midfielder with positional sense' or 'midfielder who can tackle'. Would be happy if we signed one of those.

Indeed....chuck Villa spending £50m on Onana to my above list too, which somehow a poster on this thread denies are players perfoming this role?!

Yesterday we see McLean playing as the deepest midfielder in the team, so somebody 'is' playing in that area of the pitch, but despite his best efforts and that he may currently be the best we have at ball winning, spotting danger, breaking up play (versus a very low bar) ultimately , it isnt enough, we need somebody who is better at that role

Edited August 18 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,791]

We had two midfield players sitting in front of the CB’s -Nunez and McLean. Blackburn pressed them both . Not allowing them to play through the lines . Conversely they had 6 and 27 who in possession were unmarked . It was the key factor . 
This doesn’t answer the defensive question but it stood out a mile to me. 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

5 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

We had two midfield players sitting in front of the CB’s -Nunez and McLean. Blackburn pressed them both . Not allowing them to play through the lines . Conversely they had 6 and 27 who in possession were unmarked . It was the key factor . 
This doesn’t answer the defensive question but it stood out a mile to me. 

I mean it should be pretty obvious that neither Nunez or McLean are defensive midfielders. Nunez is your technical passing set piece specialist with a hint of attacking flair and Mclean is your jack of all but master of none (except pointing).

 

Should be pretty clear to anybody whos watching our team that we don't really have a classic proper, strong, brickhousing defensive midfielder in our side.

Edited August 18 by cambridgeshire canary

[Mason 47 1,925]

47 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think CDM is now being used to mean 'midfielder with positional sense' or 'midfielder who can tackle'. Would be happy if we signed one of those.

Hammer, nail and head

[shefcanary 2,955]

With Cordoba and Doyle both left footed CB's, could one of them do the "CDM" role? 

[Samwam27 606]

4 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

We had two midfield players sitting in front of the CB’s -Nunez and McLean. Blackburn pressed them both . Not allowing them to play through the lines . Conversely they had 6 and 27 who in possession were unmarked . It was the key factor . 
This doesn’t answer the defensive question but it stood out a mile to me. 

Hasnt it been standing out to all.us fans for several years now!

[jaberry2 769]

Patience. We have said we wanted another midfielder. Perhaps just wait until the next midfielder is signed. Potentially we might not play with a CDM, albeit some peopl can't comprehend a tactic without a CDM. If you had two competent highly mobile midfielders this might not even be necessary 

Edited August 18 by jaberry2

[hogesar 10,766]

4 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think CDM is now being used to mean 'midfielder with positional sense' or 'midfielder who can tackle'. Would be happy if we signed one of those.

I suspect that's what people mean, yes.

The problem for us of course, and probably why Thorup hasn't even mentioned the idea of signing one, is if you want an at-least Championship quality midfielder with positional sense and the timing to tackle, but also play on the half turn and distribute play as Thorup wants, then you're looking at a very expensive price tag / a huge risk for anyone at this level.

[Robert N. LiM 6,299]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

you're looking at a very expensive price tag / a huge risk for anyone at this level.

I guess the trick is to find one before anyone has realised how good they are. But that's the risk you mention.

Not exactly sure what, but feels to me our midfield is missing something at the moment. At the very least,  want another option there. 

[ged in the onion bag 961]

6 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

It's odd as any football manager fan can see we are screaming for one but the professional coach doesn't feel the same.

Like I can forgive smith and Wagner for being clueless but maybe Hoff feels someone can already do it? 

No idea about FM but it’s quite telling that we’ve never had any adequate defence since Kenny has been here.    It’s not all his fault but he has not offered an adequate screen ever.    He doesn’t react like a natural defender either and is often too late to close down opponents.

Last season he didn’t get POTS for playing the deeper midfielder… he got it for his improved distribution and because the rest were pretty ropey most of the season.   Why the improved distribution, well Wagner played him deeper so he had more time on the ball, time to pick passes.    In the big games or when he’s closed down, he’s not effective at all but everyone loves him.    Nice bloke clearly but while he’s on our teamsheet in midfield, the defence is going to struggle.   

[baldy09 196]

I believe we will in the end obtain a DM , we are weak in that area and letting to many goals in, plus has soon has we loose the ball high up the pitch any opposition player(s) with speed causes so many problems and goals conceded 

[TheBaldOne66 768]

Playing 4-3-3 will not require a defensive midfielder it seems, so it’s time we stopped banging on about it

[rock bus 1,059]

47 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Playing 4-3-3 will not require a defensive midfielder it seems, so it’s time we stopped banging on about it

I think you're probably right on this - with a 3 and the type of players that I think Thorup wants the key is flexibility, rather than fixed position/capabilities.

I think Nunez is pretty close to this as he can tackle and get stuck in but also has a decent pass and an ability to bring the ball forward. (McLean should be the same but he has a tendency to run back with players but not actually put a tackle in!)

What we desperately need (and what I think sometime gets confused with a DCM) is a player who can stamp his authority on a game. This is as much about having a presence on the pitch and the capability to dictate the pace of the game. That means slowing it down and regaining control when we are being over run or alternatively really pushing the team on when we are looking for a goal. 

When was the last time you watched a game and thought X really 'grabbed that game by the scruff of its neck'?

None of our existing players seem able to do this.

[Captain Holt 580]

It's the defenders seemingly unable to perform basic defensive duties (Doyle tucking in when he went to left back leaving the Blackburn player with a free run down the right to get the cross in for the equaliser). We need a right footed centre back far more than a midfielder. 

Edited August 19 by Captain Holt

[ged in the onion bag 961]

1 hour ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Playing 4-3-3 will not require a defensive midfielder it seems, so it’s time we stopped banging on about it

I'd suggest it needs one more even so!