Wagner has gone nuclear

[Six Pack 93]

4 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

They didn’t think we were a Prem club, but it was worth a roll of the dice in an attempt to stay up. Farke was hopeless in the top flight with Norwich so I’ve no problem with his sacking, we just didn’t get the replacement right.

Without Buendia there’s no guarantee Farke would have done any better than Smith or Wagner in the last two years anyway. Our record without him was abysmal even when we walked the league 

Farke's doing perfectly fine without Buendia. We could have as well - no way should he have been sacked !

[Google Bot 3,278]

34 minutes ago, S_81 said:

I don’t have a season ticket currently. I went tonight though. Your rudeness is needless. Grow up 

No offence, but the thought of you sat in the stand posting negative opinions on your phone as the rest of the ground were celebrating a goal is really quite comical:

It's almost unbelievable, in fact.

[Fen Canary 828]

Just now, Six Pack said:

Farke's doing perfectly fine without Buendia. We could have as well - no way should he have been sacked !

Along with Leicester Farke has the strongest squad in the league by a country mile. Anything less than automatic promotion would be an abject failure on his part this time around.

However have a look at his second tier record at Norwich with and without Buendia. With Buendia we would be looking at finishing well in excess of 100 points over a season, whereas without him we’d have finished in the relegation spots. I loved Farke when he was here, but I think it’s wrong to say he was hard done by with his sacking 

[norwich canary 73]

The booing wasn’t just about that game but a whole year of below par performances, baffling decision making and a growing disconnect between the fans and the club.

i couldn’t make it last night and am damn annoyed I missed a right good boo 

[LaUnionCanary 86]

Booing a substitution decision is in fact booing a player. You are indirectly booing the player coming on, maybe directly in some cases.

[Six Pack 93]

13 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Along with Leicester Farke has the strongest squad in the league by a country mile. Anything less than automatic promotion would be an abject failure on his part this time around.

However have a look at his second tier record at Norwich with and without Buendia. With Buendia we would be looking at finishing well in excess of 100 points over a season, whereas without him we’d have finished in the relegation spots. I loved Farke when he was here, but I think it’s wrong to say he was hard done by with his sacking 

You're entitled to your opinion Fen Canary - I thought the way he was treated was deplorable !

[Mr.Carrow 376]

5 hours ago, percy varco said:

Wouldn’t expect him to say anything else. 
 

Dave’s got a lot of convincing to do

Well being on about the best run of form in the division doesn't seem to be enough. Seems he has to be a cross between Mother Teresa and Alex Ferguson to pacify the arrogant clowns in our fanbase. He is right, they are wrong. And they really can't take it. 

[S_81 798]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

No offence, but the thought of you sat in the stand posting negative opinions on your phone as the rest of the ground were celebrating a goal is really quite comical:

It's almost unbelievable, in fact.

Wagner being carried by a handful of our talented players isn’t just a fair conclusion, it’s an obvious conclusion. He got out of jail, again. 

[canarybubbles 1,919]

I went to bed happy after a crazy game which we won 4-2 after I had made gloomy predictions following the line-up. I wake up and I find this thread and I've gone through all the posts. It feels like we are determined to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Majority opinion on here seems to be against the people who booed, and I understand that, but I agree most with the posters who have said that the disconnect exists and it's no use pretending it doesn't. We're not a happy club at the moment. We can blame Webber or Delia or the supporters who booed according to our opinion, but doing this just fans the flames even more.

It's a mess and who knows how it can be sorted out.

 

[Virtual reality 709]

Seems a section of the fan base have turned into idiots. We’ve a real chance of getting into the play offs 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

The boos were a reaction of frustration because at 2-0 up the team stopped playing and DW went negative in his subs and tactics. That they later rallied again and saw the game off is tremendous- but be honest - the period after 2-0 and up to 2-2 was pretty dire. It also was typical of some of the worst of this season. Hence the boos. Bottom line - a manager who regularly plays people out of position whilst leaving those who play that position on the bench- and who makes erratic subs and has used 11 different CB pairings this season- shouldn’t be surprised by fans not getting what’s going on. 

the boos began before kick off when Sorensen was in cb and Nunez dropped. Strange calls which made people question - when things turned a bit sour there was then an outpouring. That’s my take anyway 

Edited February 14 by Dean Coneys boots

[MC_NCFC 67]

The fact is we got very lucky last night. We could have easily have lost the game when Watford were all over us and we were completely chaotic in our play. 
 

Wagner similar to Delia and Webber needs to learn to read the room and work hard to build the relationship back with the fans.

Boo Boys stay at home he says…. Would be interesting if the Snakepit and Barclay decide to hold back for the first 10 minutes and not enter the stadium. That’ll send a proper message to those that think the fans voices dont matter.

[Sufyellow 222]

37 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

Seems a section of the fan base have turned into idiots. We’ve a real chance of getting into the play offs 

Then what? That's the problem and the huge thing to get over. That's the problem in the ground. This team and the way it is set up would be ripped apart every week in the prem. But there isn't no answer at the moment.  

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

The booing last night was silly because both players substituted were clearly unable to carry on. But it wasn't just those substitutions, it was a culmination of more than a season of strange decisions.

Perhaps the strangest of those decisions is to persist with Sara as a holding midfielder. He's a brilliant player but he's no good at it. He's very good at playing in the middle of an attacking 3 so Wagner has continually weakened the team in 2 positions. Nunez is no worse than Sara defensively and played well against Coventry only to be dropped against QPR. I could understand that decision if Nunez was being replaced with a reliable defensive midfielder but he wasn't.

Wagner's biggest problem is that he appears completely uninspiring and he's poor with the press. He didn't handle the situation well last night and he's driven a bigger wedge between himself and the fans. 

I do feel sorry for him because we have had a terrible run of injuries to key players. If we'd had a full squad of players available all season we would be as good as in the play offs already, although that's mainly down to a division with 4 good teams and little else. 

 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,319]

5 hours ago, Six Pack said:

Farke's doing perfectly fine without Buendia. We could have as well - no way should he have been sacked !

That may be, but he has summerville who is probably the best attacking midfielder in the league 🤷

[Jim Smith 2,321]

The club has created this situation by refusing to remove a coach that the fans have zero faith or confidence in when they should have done. Wagner is a squatter in most fans eyes and supporters are fed up with his ropey selections and tactics and iffy performances. 

[Mr Tea 105]

As perhaps one of the older posters on the forum im kinda trying to get my head around what these boo boys and girls want.

im guessing they think we have a legal right to boss the league like we did for a few years with DF ?

 God only knows  what they would think if they came back in time and watched some of the crap I’ve seen over the years !!!!

 

[AJ 1,222]

1 hour ago, Virtual reality said:

Seems a section of the fan base have turned into idiots. We’ve a real chance of getting into the play offs 

But if he continues making inept tactical decisions (substitutions) then we'll keep dropping points. We were lucky to get 3 last night after dropping a two goal lead, again.

 

Will you boo if we don't make the playoffs?

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,319]

So many people saying we were lucky last night, hopefully we'll be that lucky every game if scoring 4 is lucky 🤷🤷 

Wagner has his issues sure, his subs can sometimes baffle but even the greats have moments of madness with subs, some work, some don't, is it frustrating when it backfires? Sure. But the other team is allowed to make changes and try and get something too. 

Sure at times this season I've been of the opinion he should go, but he's doing all that can be expected at this moment in time, we're currently in the play offs, with a very good chance of finishing there if this form continues, players are clearly playing for the man and all that in spite of a very fragile atmosphere, if you'd have given me that at the start of the season I'd of bitten your hand off! 

 

[Jim Smith 2,321]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

This trust thing, like respect, is false. It's a false argument. Not only that, but in this situation, it can sound very entitled.

Trust/respect isn't just earned. When you first meet someone, if you are a decent human being you don't give them zero trust/respect.

Yes, you don't give them 100% but you certainly don't give them zero.

Unfortunately that is exactly what some fans do. Wagner started out being 'the easy option', in other words with zero.

The demand was more attacking football than Smith, he largely delivered. It was clear our squad of mainly youngsters needed experience. We added that. But it had to be on a budget.

The chap has been on an absolute hiding to nothing from some folks and never given the respect of a clean slate.

Now we're in the play-offs and the players are clearly playing for him?

I'm not sure suggesting he needs to earn your trust or respect is putting across the message you should be wanting to put across.

I don’t think that correct. He’s generally been respected for being a good guy and yes it’s true the players are playing for him but it’s also the case that we’ve seen enough of his football now to realise he’s really not very good and that his decision making is highly questionable. Ironically I actually didn’t mind the subs last night in the sense that he was shifting us into the formation we should have played from the start and yet he refuses to put us out in. They came at the end of a very, very poor 25 minutes of play where we nearly managed to throw the game away.

Ultimately this situation became inevitable when they took the cowardly decision not to sack him and decided to limp on til the summer. Nobody expects him to be there next season. Very few seem to want him there next season. We are treading water and a very large chunk of the fanbase has no faith in his judgment so situations like last night will occur.

im not sure telling 5000 people to stay away in the eve of season ticket price rises being announced is ideal. 

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,343]

That was a bonkers game. 

After what happened at QPR I can understand our supporters uneasiness with Wagner’s subs. At 2-2 it looked for all the world that Watford would go on to win and I think most would agree at that point they didn’t expect us to win. It’ll be interesting if he does the same thing against Cardiff. I suspect he won’t.

I’m not sure Wagner’s post-match criticism of the fans has gone down well with the bean counters. As someone pointed out to me it’s less than helpful when the official launch for season ticket renewals is due today.

[canarybubbles 1,919]

Like many fans, I like Wagner as a person, but I have doubts about aspects of his managerial abilities. Having said that, I think we have to be realistic. Just as we can't expect our full backs to be peak-Maldini or our forwards to be peak-Messi, we have to accept that our managers will not be peak-Ferguson or Wenger. Wagner seems very good at the human side of his job with the players, but IMO badly overthinks things tactically at times. Like almost all head coaches, he's a mixed bag.

Almost certainly he is going to be here until the end of this season at the very least, so I think we should get behind him. This does not mean refusing to criticise or call out decisions which we think are poor ones, but just accepting that he's not perfect and giving him some leeway and recognising the improvements in our recent results and performances. Whoever is to blame for the split between the fans and the club, it's certainly not Wagner. Until last night his behaviour towards the fans has been exemplary - unlike his predecessor or our ex-SD - and I hope this latest development doesn't sour the relationship even further. Dean Smith and Webber have gone, and both we fans and the club have to try to rebuild goodwill. We've got no chance of the playoffs if Connor Southwell's 'civil war' continues. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Let's face it, the club, again, have had a PR nightmare on the eve of the ticket renewal. Rather than play on the positives, Wagner choose to go to war on the people that paid and had the cheek to show their frustrations at, what they see as poor game management. 

It's split the fan base and will make it harder for him to succeed. 

Just get on with the job and if the results are there the boos will go.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

 

2 hours ago, S_81 said:

Wagner being carried by a handful of our talented players isn’t just a fair conclusion, it’s an obvious conclusion. He got out of jail, again. 

How stupid.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

9 hours ago, RobJames said:

Only it wasn't  ''the whole...", it was a few spotty Herberts. Much the same age as those young binlets, seen on another thread. Kids who have no idea of the game other than they need to ape the behaviour of fans elsewhere. I assume KH you were in the River End so unable to see who were booing. 

When substitutions are made things are generally quite so stuff like this carries.  I wonder how many of these cretins will sign 'the pledge'. Refusing to attend any play off semi final or final games. We are now 6th (momentarily), and are heading in the right direction. This from what is am almost 'scratch team' when compared to the money of some of the other clubs. Genuine supporters know this and recognise where we are, compared to where we have been for much of our existence.

It is only the wretched glory hunters who have suddenly discovered that supporting a club, involves support - and it is not all open top buses and winning games every week. I suspect that should we not go up this season they will melt away. Probably not as much as our income, but they will be no loss, whatsoever.

 

 

 

Let's hope it was only a few, I know I can be critical at times 😁, but I did think the booing was poor form.

[Badger 2,405]

24 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

im not sure telling 5000 people to stay away in the eve of season ticket price rises being announced is ideal. 

 

I don't think it is 5,000 Jim. The 20% figure for "boo boys" was always an exaggeration. Many times this season, since the minority shareholders ill-considered statement, a small section of fans in the Snakepit have tried to rally the troops with attempts at "20% you're having a laugh" but with very little response - a couple of hundred if that.

The truth is that the last few seasons have tested the patience of 100% of fans, we have had to endure some dispiriting stuff, but the small hardcore of "boo boys," who boo everything that goes wrong is a far smaller community.

If this group of non fans were to stay away, it would, in my opinion, be the best thing that could happen for the club.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

19 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Let's face it, the club, again, have had a PR nightmare on the eve of the ticket renewal. Rather than play on the positives, Wagner choose to go to war on the people that paid and had the cheek to show their frustrations at, what they see as poor game management. 

It's split the fan base and will make it harder for him to succeed. 

Just get on with the job and if the results are there the boos will go.

No he didn't. He rebuked a portion of fans arrogant enough to behave abusively to manager and players alike on the back of taking off a tired player and bringing on a fresh one.

It's one thing questioning decisions after the game and after you've seen the outcome; it's another to actively undermine the decision, the managers authority, and the players confidence during the game.

I think the fans who clearly could see how damaging it was and started being more supportive in the face of it even while we were still on the back foot deserve credit. I don't believe there's any way they were the same people who started leading booing as soon as it was clear Sarge was coming off.

Edited February 14 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,300]

10 hours ago, S_81 said:

Supporters don’t boo. 
Those that do need to stay at home. 
 

Doesn’t seem to understand it’s his decisions being booed (rightly or wrongly). Not the team. 

The booing last night isn’t about the tactics or Wagner it’s a massive disconnect between the club and its fan base!

Wagners turned thing around and you can’t play expansive football with players we have, the four CB we have  have the highest age combined than any other club! How bad is that! We’re playing Barnes, his game at Burnley was always about fight and ****housery! He’s not going to turn into messi anytime soon! McLean & Sara along with Sainz & Rowe have to support a **** poor defence so can’t get forward as they can, sort out a strong back line with a Tettey type DCM and that front line will be free to play well!

I feel sorry for the situation Wagner finds himself in! The club are hiding behind him and not really supporting him! He’s in a no win situation where results don’t appear to count anymore!

 

[Sufyellow 222]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No he didn't. He rebuked a portion of fans arrogant enough to behave abusively to manager and players alike on the back of taking off a tired player and bringing on a fresh one.

It's one thing questioning decisions after the game and after you've seen the outcome; it's another to actively undermine the decision, the managers authority, and the players confidence during the game.

I think the fans who clearly could see how damaging it was and started being more supportive in the face of it even while we were still on the back foot deserve credit.

Mainly the same fans , or did the other 3 stands start getting vocal? You can disagree with a moment in a game , but still vocally support your team. What players were they abusive too? They didn't like his tactical change, he also had every right to say trust me , look it worked. He had no right to say stay at home, unless you want 19 thousand crowds next season? 

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

17 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

How stupid.

It boils down to which side of the argument you consider to be the case:

Some fans think that Wagner is doing fine considering the tools he has to work with and the injuries that have impeded him. In doing so, they endorse his tactical ability.

Others feel that he, and his management style, are not getting the best from a squad containing a fair number of very gifted players, many with PL experience, some who cost a bit and all amongst the best remunerated in the league. In doing so they question his tactics.

I suppose last night's episode summed it up. Left of field selection that bemused most, fantastic goal by Sara (not in his starting role) and all to regain the lead. Either the points gained were down to the manager or in spite of him?

There is a case for both, I lean fairly heavily towards the latter.

Didn't like the booing. It is clear that Sargent's return needs to be handled sensibly, the player knows this, the fans should know it as he is surely our greatest asset.

Edited February 14 by BroadstairsR