Talks have been held about Wagners future

[Fen Canary 829]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is hilarious. 10 games and 2 points and dismissal is bad treatment?

Bonkers.

Webber's judged on the net position over his tenure, which is that on the pitch we're pretty much back to where we started. If Farke had run the whole season then he'd have been back to where he started as well.

Great guy, but the level of fawning is getting to the point where you should maybe give up supporting Norwich and just support whatever club Farke is at.

Farke was lucky we sacked him when we did, it allowed him to walk away with his reputation intact.

I believe if we had given him the chance to try and get promoted a third time but without Emi and an ageing Pukki we’d have been looking at a season closer to his first one rather than the two titles unfortunately. He didn’t get chance for the crowd to turn like Worthy 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Fen Canary

[lake district canary 4,533]

4 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

8 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is hilarious. 10 games and 2 points and dismissal is bad treatment?

Bonkers.

Webber's judged on the net position over his tenure, which is that on the pitch we're pretty much back to where we started. If Farke had run the whole season then he'd have been back to where he started as well.

Great guy, but the level of fawning is getting to the point where you should maybe give up supporting Norwich and just support whatever club Farke is at.

Farke was lucky we sacked him when we did, it allowed him to walk away with his reputation intact.

I believe if we had given him the chance to try and get promoted a third time but without Emi and an ageing Pukki we’d have been looking at a season closer to his first one rather than the two titles unfortunately. He didn’t get chance for the crowd to turn like Worthy 

It's a view, I suppose, but sacking him really helped, didn't it......I mean we've been so much better since he left.......

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It's a view, I suppose, but sacking him really helped, didn't it......I mean we've been so much better since he left.......

Pretty football has its limits for clubs of our resources, as Farke's tenure proved, in keeping with what Parma said. We tried something different with Smith to develop something less pretty but more durable and better suited to premier League survival. People were too impatient to give it a chance, so now we have poor man's Farke.

Farke was sacked. Smith was sacked. Wagner should be sacked. What we don't need is more pretty football that falls short in the Premier League because we can't afford the players. If people want Norwich to be a premier League club then f*k style and f*k pretty. Wins should be king until we're finally able to string together more than one season in the Premier League. Then will be the time to start thinking about pretty again.

Edited November 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarybubbles 1,923]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I think people are reading too much into “vision” and “identity”. I just want a manager who can get the best out of the players we can afford. Football tactics and playing styles come and go with the fashion of the time (target men, sweepers, diamonds, defensive midfielders, pressing game etc) and they last as long as it takes enough opponents to figure out a way to beat it.

Having the whole club welded to a particular playing style may be ok for Man City with infinite money to buy the exact players to fit it, but at our level there will always be compromises on who we get so it won’t always be possible

Isn't this what Dean Smith's 'pragmatism' was supposed to be all about? 

Farke's ideological purity may have failed at Premier League level (Burnley are currently having the same problem, which suggests it wasn't just Farke). But at least it succeeded at Championship level.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

11 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Isn't this what Dean Smith's 'pragmatism' was supposed to be all about? 

Farke's ideological purity may have failed at Premier League level (Burnley are currently having the same problem, which suggests it wasn't just Farke). But at least it succeeded at Championship level.

So what do you want? Was pretty championship football that failed at premier League level good enough for you? It's fine if it is. You just need to make sure you're clear on the point the next time we have a manager who does pretty football in the championship that's torn apart in the Premier League.

Regardless of what people think of Smith personally and whether he personally was the right person, it was the right approach if Premier League survival is the ultimate goal.

But anyway, priority should be getting rid of a manager who's flirting with League 1.

Edited November 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Petriix 2,840]

16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What we don't need is more pretty football that falls short in the Premier League because we can't afford the players.

This attitude is exactly why we're in free fall now. We had a good thing. Winning the Championship in style two out of three seasons was a huge success in comparison to the plight of most clubs of our stature.

I'd say I 100% disagree with you. What we need is to recreate the excellent football we played under Farke by building a skillful squad of the kind of quirky players who we can afford, then drilling them on how to play an effective style of attacking football.

What we don't need is journeymen picking up £40k per week.

Just because a vocal minority clamoured for "giving it a go" AKA "bankrupting the club" doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

15 minutes ago, Petriix said:

This attitude is exactly why we're in free fall now. We had a good thing. Winning the Championship in style two out of three seasons was a huge success in comparison to the plight of most clubs of our stature.

I'd say I 100% disagree with you. What we need is to recreate the excellent football we played under Farke by building a skillful squad of the kind of quirky players who we can afford, then drilling them on how to play an effective style of attacking football.

What we don't need is journeymen picking up £40k per week.

Just because a vocal minority clamoured for "giving it a go" AKA "bankrupting the club" doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. 

Don't get me wrong, I was happy with the Farke approach. I argued to keep him precisely because I was okay with yoyoing. I actually argued for this until I was blue in the face on here, to much ridicule. I've given up on that because ultimately there were very few vocal voices supporting it. LDC whines about the outcome of Farke being sacked, but he was pretty useless at arguing for why being a yo-yo club had its plus side. You can't complain about a vocal minority winning out if you're part of the silent majority who's perfectly capable of speaking and chooses not to with any enthusiasm.

The fans told the club not surviving in the premier League wasn't good enough, so they tried to change. Some other fans complained it was no longer pretty enough so we changed again. Now we're lost.

The club does its best to please the fans. The problem the club has is the fans aren't agreed whether ambition is more important or whether having fun is and won't form a consensus for either. That's why we're failing.

Edited November 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[......and Smith must score. 1,345]

11 hours ago, Badger said:

Agree completely. If you stop going you are irrelevant (except as "experts" pontificating on social media).

I would hope you might look more kindly on people who have always gone but for age/ health reasons can no longer attend ?

[......and Smith must score. 1,345]

13 hours ago, hogesar said:

I mean, I get your point but ultimately he could just resign.

He has given 100%, tried to get the fans onside etc.

Equally he has seriously underperformed in his job for months and won't resign because he'll want an extra payoff for not performing.

If he doesn't want all the flak he has a real easy way out...

He’d be mad to resign at this point. He’s on the trapdoor with the rope round his neck. A few more weeks grief before it’s sprung then he’ll get a nice little compo package in his back pocket and he can ride off into the sunset.

No brainer.

[......and Smith must score. 1,345]

11 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Don’t get me wrong I love my mum but she shouldn’t be allowed to make any decisions on football. She’s the type who falls for all the fake posts on Facebook and shares them like they are from the BBC. 😂

In fairness you did say she was a complete moron on football views. There’s plenty like that on here.

I’m sure in life in general she’s a lovely woman, your Mum.

 

[Badger 2,406]

1 minute ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I would hope you might look more kindly on people who have always gone but for age/ health reasons can no longer attend ?

I certainly would - it happened to my Grandfather, mum and dad, and, in time, it will happen to me. They are a very different category from the group of "fans" that "love" the club so much that they refuse to go and take every opportunity to attack the club and dismiss those that still go as "stupid sheep."

There is much to be unhappy about at the moment as there have been in our past and there will be in the future - it goes with the territory of supporting a club "outside the superleague in waiting" group. Some just don't have the stomach for it and have voted with their feet, as is their right, but when they contribute nothing but bile, we are better off without them, because they will be just as petulant the next time things go wrong.

[......and Smith must score. 1,345]

Just now, Badger said:

I certainly would - it happened to my Grandfather, mum and dad, and, in time, it will happen to me. They are a very different category from the group of "fans" that "love" the club so much that they refuse to go and take every opportunity to attack the club and dismiss those that still go as "stupid sheep."

There is much to be unhappy about at the moment as there have been in our past and there will be in the future - it goes with the territory of supporting a club "outside the superleague in waiting" group. Some just don't have the stomach for it and have voted with their feet, as is their right, but when they contribute nothing but bile, we are better off without them, because they will be just as petulant the next time things go wrong.

Glad to here this and I agree. If that had been clear in the original post I wouldn’t have responded.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

2 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

In fairness you did say she was a complete moron on football views. There’s plenty like that on here.

I’m sure in life in general she’s a lovely woman, your Mum.

 

Absolutely there’s plenty of things in life I’d happily take her advice on. Listening to her about football though would be like asking an electrician about a lump you’ve suddenly found on your balls rather than a doctor. 

[The Bristol Nest 516]

I am happy to be irrelevant in your limited view. I was planning to attend the Cardiff game but have decided to watch my son play rugby on Saturday instead. This is entirely due to our dismal performances. If DW had been moved on I would have gone to the match. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

This attitude is exactly why we're in free fall now. We had a good thing. Winning the Championship in style two out of three seasons was a huge success in comparison to the plight of most clubs of our stature.

I'd say I 100% disagree with you. What we need is to recreate the excellent football we played under Farke by building a skillful squad of the kind of quirky players who we can afford, then drilling them on how to play an effective style of attacking football.

What we don't need is journeymen picking up £40k per week.

Just because a vocal minority clamoured for "giving it a go" AKA "bankrupting the club" doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. 

I think why we were successful under Farke was obviously the brand of football but also we brought in players who did the job as well to support the stars. That they were German or eastern european might well have helped as well. And he played the players in their right positions. 

Sunday, my son and I deliberately watched Sara. On many occasions he was deeper on the pitch than Warner or Duffy. He wass picking the ball up from Long in his own area. He cannot tackle properly and is very unaware of positioning when defending and Blackburn split us wide ipen down the middle every time they attacked. Sara is a half decent player going forward. He is not Emi or even close. Emi could tackle back and had the grit to get stuck in.

Sara is a decent player around the opposition penalty area. But if he has to run 60 yards every time to get there, he is wasted. He seems to score when he does get in the opposition box. If I can spot that why can't Wagner?

But back to the players themselves. Stieppermann was ideal and I don't know why he left. He covered the middle and also supported Teemu and scored his fair share of goals. Vrancic strolled around the middle looking to link play and then chose his moments to strike. What does Nunez do? Leitner and Trybull added balance to the Emi and Todd flair in the middle. And even players who are looking awful like Onel and Kenny had their moments in that setup. Onel looks clueless at the moment.

What is Rowe supposed to do at the .moment? He makes runs at the opposition defence and has nobody to pass to. So now he ends up going on his own and losing it as he is surrounded.

We could get relegated this season by a point or even goal difference. Yet the board which is resembling a Monty Python sketch, dithers and allows a completely lost coach at least another game. Of course he would have told them he can turn it around. Who wouldn't say that? 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think why we were successful under Farke was obviously the brand of football but also we brought in players who did the job as well to support the stars. That they were German or eastern european might well have helped as well. And he played the players in their right positions. 

Sunday, my son and I deliberately watched Sara. On many occasions he was deeper on the pitch than Warner or Duffy. He wass picking the ball up from Long in his own area. He cannot tackle properly and is very unaware of positioning when defending and Blackburn split us wide ipen down the middle every time they attacked. Sara is a half decent player going forward. He is not Emi or even close. Emi could tackle back and had the grit to get stuck in.

Sara is a decent player around the opposition penalty area. But if he has to run 60 yards every time to get there, he is wasted. He seems to score when he does get in the opposition box. If I can spot that why can't Wagner?

But back to the players themselves. Stieppermann was ideal and I don't know why he left. He covered the middle and also supported Teemu and scored his fair share of goals. Vrancic strolled around the middle looking to link play and then chose his moments to strike. What does Nunez do? Leitner and Trybull added balance to the Emi and Todd flair in the middle. And even players who are looking awful like Onel and Kenny had their moments in that setup. Onel looks clueless at the moment.

What is Rowe supposed to do at the .moment? He makes runs at the opposition defence and has nobody to pass to. So now he ends up going on his own and losing it as he is surrounded.

We could get relegated this season by a point or even goal difference. Yet the board which is resembling a Monty Python sketch, dithers and allows a completely lost coach at least another game. Of course he would have told them he can turn it around. Who wouldn't say that? 

Re. Stiepermann, he had a wonderful season in Farke's first Championship-winning run, but didn't get going in the Premier, got Epstein-Barr syndrome and was really just a shadow of himself after that, unfortunately. He actually asked for his contract to be terminated so he could get treated properly.

As much as I loved him as a quirky underdog sort, he wasn't the solution and it was right for him to go.

[Sufyellow 222]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Pretty football has its limits for clubs of our resources, as Farke's tenure proved, in keeping with what Parma said. We tried something different with Smith to develop something less pretty but more durable and better suited to premier League survival. People were too impatient to give it a chance, so now we have poor man's Farke.

Farke was sacked. Smith was sacked. Wagner should be sacked. What we don't need is more pretty football that falls short in the Premier League because we can't afford the players. If people want Norwich to be a premier League club then f*k style and f*k pretty. Wins should be king until we're finally able to string together more than one season in the Premier League. Then will be the time to start thinking about pretty again.

You still need Premiership players,  what ever way you play. We could never afford them. 

[S_81 802]

1 hour ago, The Bristol Nest said:

I am happy to be irrelevant in your limited view. I was planning to attend the Cardiff game but have decided to watch my son play rugby on Saturday instead. This is entirely due to our dismal performances. If DW had been moved on I would have gone to the match. 

Good on you. Some on here will never understand such protest. 

[shefcanary 2,410]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Football tactics and playing styles come and go with the fashion of the time

You are already seeing a move away from the "deep provocation to create space further forward, coupled with a high energetic press" tactics that Wagner has been trying to play already. In the EPL quite a few clubs have ditched this and are starting to play the ball longer. As you say, tactics are only as good as long as the opposition don't counter it. However, a playing style needn't necessarily be aligned to just one tactical framework. We have a tactical framework under Wagner, but our style of play is a total mish mash. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

Webber out and Knapper starting monday morning!

The board have finally woken up and realised the seriousness of the situation

[hogesar 9,676]

2 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

He’d be mad to resign at this point. He’s on the trapdoor with the rope round his neck. A few more weeks grief before it’s sprung then he’ll get a nice little compo package in his back pocket and he can ride off into the sunset.

No brainer.

100% agree but then I don't think we should then, as per the post I was quoting, feel too sympathetic for Wagner.

[MORDENCANARY 71]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Pretty football has its limits for clubs of our resources, as Farke's tenure proved, in keeping with what Parma said. We tried something different with Smith to develop something less pretty but more durable and better suited to premier League survival. People were too impatient to give it a chance, so now we have poor man's Farke.

Farke was sacked. Smith was sacked. Wagner should be sacked. What we don't need is more pretty football that falls short in the Premier League because we can't afford the players. If people want Norwich to be a premier League club then f*k style and f*k pretty. Wins should be king until we're finally able to string together more than one season in the Premier League. Then will be the time to start thinking about pretty again.

Absolutely agree. Farke's football worked in the Championship but we didn't have the players to make it work in the Prem. The same situation is now happening with Wagner, he's trying to impose a style that's not working . Smith was a change in philosophy but he fell between two stools . City need to get ugly for a while ......just to survive. 

[Captain Holt 522]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

100% agree but then I don't think we should then, as per the post I was quoting, feel too sympathetic for Wagner.

Absolutely not. He'll have a period of time off enjoying the money then walk into another job and the cycle begins again.

[vos 155]

40 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Webber out and Knapper starting monday morning!

The board have finally woken up and realised the seriousness of the situation

Wagner will not be sacked until Webber has gone. Reason, it will not look good on Webber's CV to sack in a fairly short time, three managers he  recruited

[Mason 47 1,383]

I've been thinking recently that the change in style has been rushed, and this is why it's been so unsuccessful.

Farke had 2 pre seasons either side of a first season with a prototype version of what he wanted, really building the foundations in. We had to rely on regular magic from Maddison to keep us ticking in mid table, but it was at least a MVP of what we eventually got.

Both Smith & Wagner have essentially had no mid-season transfer window, one fraught half-season trying to manage someone else's players and a single pre season to try and set in a complete identity change. Smith probably got closer than Wagner- I don't think the guy after Farke was ever going to be a great success, especially with his disconnected demeanour. Wagner may have had a shot, but I think the ferocious start blew up fan expectations to instant-promotion again; there is no escaping however that his squad is a muddle, in a system that makes them all worse, and it has been found out. He needed first to work in a version of his system that at least worked, then refine over time. I think there was at least partial acceptance of this, as multi-year contracts for the likes of Duffy + Barnes were not with playing in the PL in mind.

My conclusion is that we should not look to a promotion on the horizon this season, nor next. The club requires a fall and a total reset- wonky Wagner building on the ill-fitting Smith has left us in a thick overgrowth of incongruent threads and projects that is not easily trimmed.

All is not lost. I don't believe the current crop of players is irredeemable. But patience is going to be key.

[DraytonBoy 152]

18 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

I don't believe the current crop of players is irredeemable.

It depends on the level of expectation, the squad (once fully fit) is good enough to challenge for a play-off spot but nothing more.

The club needs a complete reset which will hopefully happen once Wagner and Webber are gone and Attanasio is in total control provided of course the latter is willing to pump in the required investment.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Well that is one bit of good news. Webber gone by Saturday tea time. I hope Knapper is at the game. 

Now we just need some more good news. Either Wagner is going or he is resigning.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

Just put a caretaker in charge on Saturday...then Knapper has the 2 week break to appoint someone

...by sending Wagner there, we may aswell just give Cardiff a 3-0 walkover

[The Bristol Nest 516]

It feels like we are giving up 3 points next weekend.

I hope that I am wrong and that I regret missing the game of the year.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

On 06/11/2023 at 23:29, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is hilarious. 10 games and 2 points and dismissal is bad treatment?

Bonkers.

Webber's judged on the net position over his tenure, which is that on the pitch we're pretty much back to where we started. If Farke had run the whole season then he'd have been back to where he started as well.

Great guy, but the level of fawning is getting to the point where you should maybe give up supporting Norwich and just support whatever club Farke is at.

The point is rather that Farke should have had a lot of credit in the bank that might have seen him shown more faith - on the back of his successes.

Smith had no credit in the bank, neither has Wagner, because neither of them have achieved anything at the club. But both have been shown more loyalty than Farke was. Such a brutal ending to what remains a highly successful period in the clubs recent history.

None of his successes mattered when it came to ending his tenure. And yet faith is being shown to managers who have achieved nothing.