How would you have done our Summer business differently?

[Monty13 2,234]

Recently there’s been a lot of criticism of our summer work, and on evidence and in hindsight quite rightly IMO.

I was personally mainly cautiously optimistic in the summer, but the more I think about our ins and outs the more I think there’s glaring issues with not only who we let leave and got in but who we chose to keep in the squad.

The thing that really stands out to me is if you look at each decision individually you can argue it was a decent to good decision, I think the issue is collectively the overall strategy has failed badly.

Personally for me there’s four main issues with our business:

1. We didn’t replace Skipp and Tettey. Normann went part way to fill the gap but he was late in and not a like for like replacement for either.

2. We let Buendia go and didn’t replace him with another similar player who can get on the ball and make us tick. Buendia and Wes have done this for Norwich sides for the last 10 years, now there’s no one, we put faith in a 20 year old loanee to do this and he’s unsurprisingly struggling to fulfil that ask.

3. We turned over more of the playing squad than we needed to and spent money on players that were a luxury when finances are tight. Gunn being the obvious example for me. But Tzolis and Sargent I think are arguably in the same camp.

4. We brought in far too many young players with potential into an already young squad. Not enough signings were ready to go. Most had to not only adapt to the league and new country, but also fulfill their potential in a young team. That was always going to be a struggle at this level, a ridiculously tough ask.

For me I’d have done certain things differently now looking at what’s occurred:

Let’s assume Emi had to go (I still don’t 100% agree but I’ll just go with it for the benefit of the exercise) and let’s also assume players that had been loaned out last season like Klose, Drmic, Trybull etc. we’re never going to return to the squad. Also that we had to sign Giannoulis and Gibson.

I think I’d have done the following:

1. Kept Vrancic, Hugill, Hernandez and Nyland. Possibly Stiepermann depending on what exactly was going on there, he’s played 9 times this season. I don’t think we massively upgraded on any and having more players from the same squad would have been better for cohesion in my opinion and let money be spent in a more focussed way.

2. Loaned out Idah, of all our players he looks the most desperately in need of a run of games at Championship level to build confidence and develop.

3. Signed Rashica. Signed Normann (and paid a bit more to get him in earlier if possible).

4. Probably still loaned Williams, I think he’s done ok, offers good cover and may have done better if the team was.

5. Signed a journeyman experienced CB as cover for Gibson/Hanley/Omabamidele

6. Prioritised only three more signings either loan or permanent but all experienced/performing at Championship+ level. A strong DM, a midfield playmaker and a Striker and focussed all remaining resources on these.

Basically take the fees from Kabak, Gilmour, Tzolis, Sargent, Lees-Melou and Gunn and get in 4 players not 6. One or two 30+ and/or frees to keep fees down.

It wouldn’t have given us many assets to grow in value but I think it would have been far more likely to keep us up.

What about you guys? I know it’s the benefit of hindsight but how would you have approached Webber’s work differently?

In:

Christos Tzolis Left Winger	19	PAOK Salonika  Super League 1	£9.90m
Milot Rashica Right Winger	25	Werder Bremen  2. Bundesliga	£9.90m
Josh Sargent Centre-Forward	21	Werder Bremen  2. Bundesliga	£8.55m
Ben Gibson Centre-Back	28	Burnley  Premier League	£8.37m
Dimitrios Giannoulis Left-Back	25	PAOK Salonika  Super League 1	£6.75m
Pierre Lees-Melou Central Midfield	28	OGC Nice  Ligue 1	£5.40m
Angus Gunn Goalkeeper	25	Southampton  Premier League	£5.27m
Ozan Kabak Centre-Back	21	FC Schalke 04  2. Bundesliga	Loan fee: £3.60m
Mathias Normann Defensive Midfield	25	Rostov  Premier Liga	Loan fee: £1.80m
Billy Gilmour Central Midfield	20	Chelsea  Premier League	loan transfer
Brandon Williams Left-Back	20	Man Utd  Premier League	loan transfer
Flynn Clarke Attacking Midfield	18	Peterborough  Championship	?

Out:

Emiliano Buendía Right Winger	24	Aston Villa  Premier League	£34.56m
Tom Trybull Defensive Midfield	28	Hannover 96  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Mario Vrancic Central Midfield	32	Stoke City  Championship	free transfer
Marco Stiepermann Attacking Midfield	30	SC Paderborn  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Örjan Nyland Goalkeeper	30	Bournemouth  Championship	free transfer
Moritz Leitner Central Midfield	28	FC Zürich  Super League	free transfer
Philip Heise Left-Back	30	Karlsruher SC  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Louis Thompson Defensive Midfield	26	Portsmouth  League One	free transfer
Sam McCallum Left-Back	20	QPR  Championship	loan transfer
Jordan Hugill Centre-Forward	29	West Brom  Championship	loan transfer
Onel Hernández Right Winger	28	Middlesbrough  Championship	loan transfer
Josh Martin Left Winger	19	MK Dons  League One	loan transfer
Danel Sinani Attacking Midfield	24	Huddersfield  Championship	loan transfer
Sebastian Soto Centre-Forward	20	FC Porto B  Liga Sabseg	loan transfer
Daniel Barden Goalkeeper	20	Livingston FC  Premiership	loan transfer
Daniel Adshead Central Midfield	19	Gillingham FC  League One	loan transfer
Aston Oxborough Goalkeeper	23	Barnet  National League	loan transfer
Akin Famewo Centre-Back	22	Charlton  League One	loan transfer

[Greavsy 2,415]

Id have done it the same as everyone on here - with Hindsight. That always works! 

Seriously though, maybe we signed too many new players, so a few less, but more quality. 

 

[Nora's Ghost 157]

Four good, PL experienced players instead of virtually an entire squad of untried and untested no names.

 

Webber was trying to be smart and got caught out. Again.

[Danke bitte 965]

I don’t think anyones said this lately but they say the definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time. 

We didn’t bring in a solid DM, and we brought in lightweight midfielders… again. This is what baffles me.

Until we’ve got a squad consisting of solid, physical players down the centre we’re always going to flop in the Premier League. 

Man.. I feel so jaded right now… 

[Jimmy Raggatip 60]

Gilmour has been poor but he was an exciting signing at the time coming off his Euros, it's very results oriented to say you wouldn't have taken him at the start of the season.

the mistake maybe is not having a more physical presence next to him, that is the error that maybe we could have done differently

I think I'd have challenged Southampton for Adam Armstrong, perhaps we'd have come off 2nd best, but he would be someone in the correct mould, has resale value, and if we go down is a proven EFL striker

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

I dunno re. Gunn being a luxury - I think people are really forgetting how much some of the fan base were crapping their kecks when McGovern had to go in goal for a bit in the Championship, let alone when Barden stepped in. A younger goalie with potential to become a number one was very much needed, IMO.

Agree that the Skipp/Tettey replacement was the real hole that went missing. I'll always argue there was an argument for putting Sörensen in late in the season when promotion was assured, but Skipp played so well there was no way Sörensen was getting past Skipp on performance-based merit. I do think Farke thought a deep-lying playmaker and two box-to-box sorts would solve the press problem from better sides, but that's been debunked so far.

Disagree with keeping Vrancic. He and Stiepermann were the classic examples of lads who were good in the Champs, but were not able to step up. Throw in both their ages and Stiepermann's long Covid and Epstein-Barr issues and the time had come for both to go IMO. Those two being mentioned are more an indicator that Gilmour and Lees-Melou haven't settled in yet.

I think most of the outbound loan business was pretty good, although I'd have kept Hugill and sent Idah. That said, Hugill was apparently knocking on the door asking for some loan action so my preference could be moot. Wouldn't have loaned Gilmour and Williams, I think the journeyman was needed more at LB as in theory we had five centre-halves this time with Hanley, Gibson, Kabak on loan, Zimmermann, and Omobamidele. 

Lees-Melou has disappointed me the most. He looked pretty decent in pre-season, looked like the all-action box-to-box guy we needed who could put a foot in at one end and drive hard to the other. And his credentials have looked really decent, he's not stepped up so far.

 

[TIL 1010 4,746]

Werder Bremen mugged us off for £20 million that is for sure.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

I said last summer what I felt we should do.

1.Offer emi a massive wage increase to stay- you don’t sell your best player on promotion. 
 

2. replace Skipp - the most obvious and important task. I got shot down for perpetually banging on about this one- but the need for physicality was self evident. We didnt

3. sign a couple more BIG athletic players with some experience

that is it. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

Giannoulis, Rashica and Normann were good buys. However I would much have prefered us to spend to bring in some older, experinced heads whos been in the top divison before rather than say Gilmour and Williams. Still feel unsure about Kabak and I still feel Omi is a bit of a better prospect than him. Keeping Emi would have been nice but as we know he throw a huge fit and walked into Webbers office and told him to his face he wanted to leave and never wanted to play another game for us ever again so..

Edited December 29, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary

[Newtopia 517]

I am happy with the approach, Rashica replacing Buendia, Gilmour for Skipp seemed decent, then Sargent, and Tzolis were bought for the future, and finally Normann, Melou, and Kabak to improve the squad it looked like tidy pieces of business.

For me the mistake was changing structure.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Newtopia

[Mr Angry 1,561]

I can’t find my post suggesting that we should sign Emmanuel Dennis and Moussa Sissoko but I did, honest 🤣

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I would not have signed anyone else until we had one, possibly two defensive midfielders in the building both of whom were physically strong. I would not have loaned Williams. I would have used one loan to get some pace up front. I would not have signed 2 from Sargent, Tzolis and Gunn and used the funds for higher priority positions, maybe resigning the keeper we had last season for another year to save money. 
 

I would also have tried a lot harder to keep Buendia. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I would have fought hard to keep Buendia. Did he want to go just for the money? Well offer more.

I would not have gone for quantity. For £49M I would have gone for two maybe three players. A CDM obviously top of the wanted list. Another striker. And another No 10. And probably gone for someone like Cahill on a year contract.

Ending up with cheaper alternatives hasn't worked. Is PLM any better than Vrancic for instance?

[sgncfc 1,228]

It's very easy to say "buy a CDM", buy a striker", "buy a PL quality old hand".

Give me names.

It's well known we wanted Billing, Armstrong and Cahill. We couldn't get them, either because we couldn't compete financially or they didn't want to come. Our financial level for the PL is currently £9-10m value with £30-40k a week in wages (ish). You simply can't get the players we needed for those sums. If we'd paid £20m each for 3 players we still might be where we are. It made a lot of sense at the time to spread that money around more players and the chance of 3 or 4 of those working out well was high.

Getting rid of older players who had not proved good enough for the PL the year before also made a lot of sense.

Kabak, Gilmour, Rashica, Gunn and Tzolis all looked like great signings at the time. Unfortunately, only one of those (Rashica) has looked even average at the moment; the rest look like they've never kicked a ball at this level. For me, Kabak has been a particular disappointment; I thought we'd got a young Van Dijk - instead we got a less mobile version of Gibson.

Last season in the Championship we defended better as a team, but we still let in loads of goals we shouldn't have. Skipp helped that process but we actually needed two CDM's to make any real difference and we couldn't even source or afford one.

I personally think our style change has proved a bigger problem than the personnel. We do not have bad players. We just do not have good enough players for the game we are trying to play. Some are not performing at even 4 out of 10 on a regular basis, let alone the 7 or 8 which we needed from everyone to have a chance of staying up.

I expect Smith to recruit 3 or 4 in January and I expect a couple to leave. I don't think we have a hope of staying up now, but I also don't think we will end up being embarrassing.

And finally, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that we will finish in the top 6 of the Championship next season. 

[Segura 84]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

I dunno re. Gunn being a luxury - I think people are really forgetting how much some of the fan base were crapping their kecks when McGovern had to go in goal for a bit in the Championship, let alone when Barden stepped in. A younger goalie with potential to become a number one was very much needed, IMO.

Agree that the Skipp/Tettey replacement was the real hole that went missing. I'll always argue there was an argument for putting Sörensen in late in the season when promotion was assured, but Skipp played so well there was no way Sörensen was getting past Skipp on performance-based merit. I do think Farke thought a deep-lying playmaker and two box-to-box sorts would solve the press problem from better sides, but that's been debunked so far.

Disagree with keeping Vrancic. He and Stiepermann were the classic examples of lads who were good in the Champs, but were not able to step up. Throw in both their ages and Stiepermann's long Covid and Epstein-Barr issues and the time had come for both to go IMO. Those two being mentioned are more an indicator that Gilmour and Lees-Melou haven't settled in yet.

I think most of the outbound loan business was pretty good, although I'd have kept Hugill and sent Idah. That said, Hugill was apparently knocking on the door asking for some loan action so my preference could be moot. Wouldn't have loaned Gilmour and Williams, I think the journeyman was needed more at LB as in theory we had five centre-halves this time with Hanley, Gibson, Kabak on loan, Zimmermann, and Omobamidele. 

Lees-Melou has disappointed me the most. He looked pretty decent in pre-season, looked like the all-action box-to-box guy we needed who could put a foot in at one end and drive hard to the other. And his credentials have looked really decent, he's not stepped up so far.

 

 

[Segura 84]

Agree re Lees Melou thought he would be the most 'oven ready' of all the signings, but hes been a passenger really too slow in thought and deed.

I hold my hands up here and say I was pretty happy with our summer signings, goes to show how much I know.

The only one I would really have liked was Billing, does anyone more in the know than me know what happened there?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,753]

We probably needed 3 x £20m signings

...not 11 signings totalling £65m+

It was was quality not quantity required.

And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11

We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it.

If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible.

We needed players for the here and now

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Danbury Yellow 126]

20 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Why probably needed 3 x £20m signings

...not 11 signings totalling £65m+

It was was quality not quantity required.

And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11

We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it.

If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible.

We needed players for the here and now

 

Agree.  But it’s difficult to predict.  I thought we had signed some great players in the summer and was impressed with the ambition.  But when you identify your targets, Ajer and Billing as you note, you have to make it happen and I think we could have, but the numbers started getting big for NCFC and we bottled it.  I think we would be better off with both in our squad and potentially less likely to go down.  

[smooth 114]

What you need is consistency in partnerships, cohesion and luck.

Doesn't matter where you are in the football pyramid, as we know we lucked out with Pukki for example.

As football fans we have seen Norwich have a number of relegations and promotions; which means we have done a lot right but not been able to then take that next step. As fans we have seen it more than players and management. 

As many have said the Defensive midfield position has not been addressed for over 7 years. We brought in Tettey from Rennes and he fitted the build but needed a little more of an engine and as we saw he did have fitness issues. He needed competition in that position and in fact an upgrade, it never came. Skipp came in and we all saw many of the traits we had been waiting for. We have needed at least 2 DM and never filled that position.

We needed to solidify the centre of our midfield this season meaning we were hard to break down. This is before the self funding model which is here to stay and means we have high turnover and solid pros who will make new partnerships almost every season with new additions.

Goals were needed and Dowell, Cantwell, Buendia needed help. Second striker was needed who could push on beyond Pukki this and next year. With Buendia moving on we needed these 2 to step up and new additions, rashica and tzolis are here with promise but I would have hoped Dowell and Cantwell showed more. Could they work with Gilmour maybe but we needed that solid defence and midfield, never got it and these 3 players have not seen their performances rise. 

A lot of players who we thought would have made a step up, so far haven't and so we have all players performing poorly, we need at least 5-6 to play out of their skins to get results in the Premier league.

Money needs to be made available in Jan for a solidifying defensive midfielder and a goal scorer, recovery of Normann is imperative and our leaders to come forward. Byram really looked like a leader yesterday in amongst a shambles. We need serious grit.

The last prem season needed grit after the restart and we saw a team that was devoid of any grit. We need it now and players back ASAP.

[Big O 225]

I think the power of hindsight tell us we didn’t get the window right however I guess always difficult at the time.

im a bit with Jim Smith on this one, once it was clear that Tettey, Vrancic, Stipermann we’re off and our chances of replacing Skipp were slim, we had to move to strengthen that area as a priority. I think most of our problems in the premier last time were down to an inability to compete in the middle of the park.

Easier said than done of course, but I would have expected the vast majority of our spend to be on 2 strong powerful central midfielders and a Buendia replacement. Once Rashica was in, it should have been all focussed on the two in the middle, gilmour should have been a bonus. If we had 2 quality midfielders, gilmour, McClean and Rupp that would have been good for me.

I understand the logic of a utility full back, back up keeps and then we clearly needed another forward player to compete with Rashica, Pukki, Cantwell and Dowell. 

it’s not necessarily the positions (other than we should have bought in 2 midfielders plus gilmour) we got wrong, more the actual players we ended up with. 

[Fromage Frais 10]

I quite liked the look of most of the signings tbf.

However they did not and still do not address the issues
 

1. We lost Skipp and needed to replace him with a tough physically able DM before skipp we had tetty we now have worse.  The thrashings come from the midfield getting over run.
2. We still do not have an overly strong, great in the air or mega fast striker.  There is no plan B we dont steal goals or set pieces I dont even ask for a wonderful player just someone with a facet that causes havoc.  
3. We need a number 10 I assumed this was to be BG but since we seem to like playing him deeper then we should have signed a number 10 at least someone who can get into the box

 

[king canary 7,606]

Difficult not to be Captain Hindsight here but I think there are three key areas we went wrong. 

1- the central midfield. It was clear to almost everyone that a powerful, athletic defensive midfielder with a bit of bite was needed. This need only increased when we bought Gilmour in, who clearly needs protection. All I can think is that Webber rates Sorenson higher than Farke or Smith seems to and felt he would step up, as neither PLM or Normann fulfilled this massive need. 

2- thinking too much about the future. £15m on Gunn and Tzolis, both of whom seem like players for two or three seasons time, if ever, was madness. You can't spend that sort of money for the future when you've not sorted the present. 

3- a lack of leadership. Difficult to screen for this but the weak mentality we showed under Farke 2 seasons back remains despite a high player turnover. Our heads drop easily, we lack organisation and we seem incapable of doing basics like keeping it tight to start games. 

As you the OP says when you go through it player by player you can make a solid case for each signing but as a collective it hasn't worked. 

[kirku 1,332]

2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

We probably needed 3 x £20m signings

...not 11 signings totalling £65m+

It was was quality not quantity required.

And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11

We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it.

If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible.

We needed players for the here and now

 

This, 1000%

[Nora's Ghost 157]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I would have fought hard to keep Buendia. Did he want to go just for the money? Well offer more.

I would not have gone for quantity. For £49M I would have gone for two maybe three players. A CDM obviously top of the wanted list. Another striker. And another No 10. And probably gone for someone like Cahill on a year contract.

Ending up with cheaper alternatives hasn't worked. Is PLM any better than Vrancic for instance?

Buendia wanted away from Norwich and he will again soon from Villa.

He's an Argentinian and far too big for his boots.

[daisy 138]

Can't think of any other club which has been promoted to the Premier league who bought players with potential and /or for the future. Clearly we needed players with Premier league experience who could hit the ground running,  sadly we failed.

[Petriix 2,835]

It's pretty simple:

• Replace Buendia and Skipp at £20m apiece
• a £10m McLean upgrade
• a free or loan CB
• One from Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis
• Keep Vrancic, Hugill, Barden, Soto, Hernandez, Martin, McCallum.

That's a net spend of about £30m

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

Naming names is tough without access to the same resources that those in the club have, but the main issue, which I pointed out more than once during the window, was the lack of experience being recruited.

All of our new signings, aside from a backup goalkeeper who was never expected to play much, were either under 21 (Gilmour, Williams), had no Premier League experience (Rashica, Lees-Melou, Normann) or both (Sargent, Tzolis, Kabak). 

I also questioned the need for Lees-Melou when we still needed a defensive midfielder as it looked like a case of quantity over quality, and I also said at the start of the window that we should've signed up Nyland as a cost-effective backup.

However, I do admit that I was quite pleased with the window overall as the deals generally looked good in isolation, but I was always concerned about the business as a whole as it lacked experience and leadership.

 

[Channon’s Windmill 326]

Bought Ajer, bought a proper DM and bought a quality striker. Not bought anyone we did… oh and not sold our best player. Fag packet maths…but maybe double our spend but as everyone has said quality over quantity.

[kirku 1,332]

10 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's pretty simple:

• Replace Buendia and Skipp at £20m apiece
• a £10m McLean upgrade
• a free or loan CB
• One from Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis
• Keep Vrancic, Hugill, Barden, Soto, Hernandez, Martin, McCallum.

That's a net spend of about £30m

This is where we enter the realms of fantasy.

Vrancic, the exact opposite of the type of midfielder we need in this league.

Hugill, who made no impact for us in the Champ and has been widely derided at WBA.

Barden, who's very sadly had medical issues.

Soto, who isn't playing for Porto's B team in the Portuguese whatever tier.

Onel, struggled with form and fitness for the last 3ish years.

Martin, can't get a game in L1 for MK Dons.

McCallum, been ok at Champ level. 

----

If we think the squad currently isn't cut out for the Prem (it isn't), then it's really not credible to suggest those players would remotely improve matters.

 

[DecentLevel 1]

Instead of:

Gilmour -> keep vrancic. Our 2nd most creative player after buendia, serious threat from set pieces and long shots and was strong in the tackle. Massively underrated by some people

Tzolis -> keep Hernandez. Brightest spark during project restart. Didn’t feature much last season but he’s more suited to our style this season, is direct, pacy and already settled in this team. Wouldn’t have done any worse 

Sargent -> King. Experience and quality as he’s showing at Watford. Pay him 60K for 3 years and he’d still cost us less than the £9m + wages we spent on Sargent.

Kabak -> Cahill. Has the leadership and experience we desperately need. Embarrassing to lose out on him to a team in the league below.

Lees-Melou -> a proper physical box-to-box midfielder. Stretch the budget with money saved on Tzolis and go for Billing, will Hughes, sissoko etc 

Rashica, Normann and Williams were decent bits of business. I’d have kept Nyland over Gunn but can see why they went for him. Otherwise that leaves us an extra PL loan to use as well as foreign loans for a dedicated CDM (hamza choudhury?) and a RW.

Overall this helps keep the core of the squad together a bit more and bolsters the spine with some proper PL experience and leadership