Monty13 2,234 Posted December 29, 2021 Recently there’s been a lot of criticism of our summer work, and on evidence and in hindsight quite rightly IMO. I was personally mainly cautiously optimistic in the summer, but the more I think about our ins and outs the more I think there’s glaring issues with not only who we let leave and got in but who we chose to keep in the squad. The thing that really stands out to me is if you look at each decision individually you can argue it was a decent to good decision, I think the issue is collectively the overall strategy has failed badly. Personally for me there’s four main issues with our business: 1. We didn’t replace Skipp and Tettey. Normann went part way to fill the gap but he was late in and not a like for like replacement for either. 2. We let Buendia go and didn’t replace him with another similar player who can get on the ball and make us tick. Buendia and Wes have done this for Norwich sides for the last 10 years, now there’s no one, we put faith in a 20 year old loanee to do this and he’s unsurprisingly struggling to fulfil that ask. 3. We turned over more of the playing squad than we needed to and spent money on players that were a luxury when finances are tight. Gunn being the obvious example for me. But Tzolis and Sargent I think are arguably in the same camp. 4. We brought in far too many young players with potential into an already young squad. Not enough signings were ready to go. Most had to not only adapt to the league and new country, but also fulfill their potential in a young team. That was always going to be a struggle at this level, a ridiculously tough ask. For me I’d have done certain things differently now looking at what’s occurred: Let’s assume Emi had to go (I still don’t 100% agree but I’ll just go with it for the benefit of the exercise) and let’s also assume players that had been loaned out last season like Klose, Drmic, Trybull etc. we’re never going to return to the squad. Also that we had to sign Giannoulis and Gibson. I think I’d have done the following: 1. Kept Vrancic, Hugill, Hernandez and Nyland. Possibly Stiepermann depending on what exactly was going on there, he’s played 9 times this season. I don’t think we massively upgraded on any and having more players from the same squad would have been better for cohesion in my opinion and let money be spent in a more focussed way. 2. Loaned out Idah, of all our players he looks the most desperately in need of a run of games at Championship level to build confidence and develop. 3. Signed Rashica. Signed Normann (and paid a bit more to get him in earlier if possible). 4. Probably still loaned Williams, I think he’s done ok, offers good cover and may have done better if the team was. 5. Signed a journeyman experienced CB as cover for Gibson/Hanley/Omabamidele 6. Prioritised only three more signings either loan or permanent but all experienced/performing at Championship+ level. A strong DM, a midfield playmaker and a Striker and focussed all remaining resources on these. Basically take the fees from Kabak, Gilmour, Tzolis, Sargent, Lees-Melou and Gunn and get in 4 players not 6. One or two 30+ and/or frees to keep fees down. It wouldn’t have given us many assets to grow in value but I think it would have been far more likely to keep us up. What about you guys? I know it’s the benefit of hindsight but how would you have approached Webber’s work differently? In: Christos Tzolis Left Winger 19 PAOK Salonika Super League 1 £9.90m Milot Rashica Right Winger 25 Werder Bremen 2. Bundesliga £9.90m Josh Sargent Centre-Forward 21 Werder Bremen 2. Bundesliga £8.55m Ben Gibson Centre-Back 28 Burnley Premier League £8.37m Dimitrios Giannoulis Left-Back 25 PAOK Salonika Super League 1 £6.75m Pierre Lees-Melou Central Midfield 28 OGC Nice Ligue 1 £5.40m Angus Gunn Goalkeeper 25 Southampton Premier League £5.27m Ozan Kabak Centre-Back 21 FC Schalke 04 2. Bundesliga Loan fee:£3.60m Mathias Normann Defensive Midfield 25 Rostov Premier Liga Loan fee:£1.80m Billy Gilmour Central Midfield 20 Chelsea Premier League loan transfer Brandon Williams Left-Back 20 Man Utd Premier League loan transfer Flynn Clarke Attacking Midfield 18 Peterborough Championship ? Out: Emiliano Buendía Right Winger 24 Aston Villa Premier League £34.56m Tom Trybull Defensive Midfield 28 Hannover 96 2. Bundesliga free transfer Mario Vrancic Central Midfield 32 Stoke City Championship free transfer Marco Stiepermann Attacking Midfield 30 SC Paderborn 2. Bundesliga free transfer Örjan Nyland Goalkeeper 30 Bournemouth Championship free transfer Moritz Leitner Central Midfield 28 FC Zürich Super League free transfer Philip Heise Left-Back 30 Karlsruher SC 2. Bundesliga free transfer Louis Thompson Defensive Midfield 26 Portsmouth League One free transfer Sam McCallum Left-Back 20 QPR Championship loan transfer Jordan Hugill Centre-Forward 29 West Brom Championship loan transfer Onel Hernández Right Winger 28 Middlesbrough Championship loan transfer Josh Martin Left Winger 19 MK Dons League One loan transfer Danel Sinani Attacking Midfield 24 Huddersfield Championship loan transfer Sebastian Soto Centre-Forward 20 FC Porto B Liga Sabseg loan transfer Daniel Barden Goalkeeper 20 Livingston FC Premiership loan transfer Daniel Adshead Central Midfield 19 Gillingham FC League One loan transfer Aston Oxborough Goalkeeper 23 Barnet National League loan transfer Akin Famewo Centre-Back 22 Charlton League One loan transfer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,415 Posted December 29, 2021 Id have done it the same as everyone on here - with Hindsight. That always works! Seriously though, maybe we signed too many new players, so a few less, but more quality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nora's Ghost 157 Posted December 29, 2021 Four good, PL experienced players instead of virtually an entire squad of untried and untested no names. Webber was trying to be smart and got caught out. Again. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danke bitte 965 Posted December 29, 2021 I don’t think anyones said this lately but they say the definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time. We didn’t bring in a solid DM, and we brought in lightweight midfielders… again. This is what baffles me. Until we’ve got a squad consisting of solid, physical players down the centre we’re always going to flop in the Premier League. Man.. I feel so jaded right now… 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmy Raggatip 60 Posted December 29, 2021 Gilmour has been poor but he was an exciting signing at the time coming off his Euros, it's very results oriented to say you wouldn't have taken him at the start of the season. the mistake maybe is not having a more physical presence next to him, that is the error that maybe we could have done differently I think I'd have challenged Southampton for Adam Armstrong, perhaps we'd have come off 2nd best, but he would be someone in the correct mould, has resale value, and if we go down is a proven EFL striker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted December 29, 2021 I dunno re. Gunn being a luxury - I think people are really forgetting how much some of the fan base were crapping their kecks when McGovern had to go in goal for a bit in the Championship, let alone when Barden stepped in. A younger goalie with potential to become a number one was very much needed, IMO. Agree that the Skipp/Tettey replacement was the real hole that went missing. I'll always argue there was an argument for putting Sörensen in late in the season when promotion was assured, but Skipp played so well there was no way Sörensen was getting past Skipp on performance-based merit. I do think Farke thought a deep-lying playmaker and two box-to-box sorts would solve the press problem from better sides, but that's been debunked so far. Disagree with keeping Vrancic. He and Stiepermann were the classic examples of lads who were good in the Champs, but were not able to step up. Throw in both their ages and Stiepermann's long Covid and Epstein-Barr issues and the time had come for both to go IMO. Those two being mentioned are more an indicator that Gilmour and Lees-Melou haven't settled in yet. I think most of the outbound loan business was pretty good, although I'd have kept Hugill and sent Idah. That said, Hugill was apparently knocking on the door asking for some loan action so my preference could be moot. Wouldn't have loaned Gilmour and Williams, I think the journeyman was needed more at LB as in theory we had five centre-halves this time with Hanley, Gibson, Kabak on loan, Zimmermann, and Omobamidele. Lees-Melou has disappointed me the most. He looked pretty decent in pre-season, looked like the all-action box-to-box guy we needed who could put a foot in at one end and drive hard to the other. And his credentials have looked really decent, he's not stepped up so far. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 4,746 Posted December 29, 2021 Werder Bremen mugged us off for £20 million that is for sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dean Coneys boots 1,400 Posted December 29, 2021 I said last summer what I felt we should do. 1.Offer emi a massive wage increase to stay- you don’t sell your best player on promotion. 2. replace Skipp - the most obvious and important task. I got shot down for perpetually banging on about this one- but the need for physicality was self evident. We didnt 3. sign a couple more BIG athletic players with some experience that is it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cambridgeshire canary 6,718 Posted December 29, 2021 (edited) Giannoulis, Rashica and Normann were good buys. However I would much have prefered us to spend to bring in some older, experinced heads whos been in the top divison before rather than say Gilmour and Williams. Still feel unsure about Kabak and I still feel Omi is a bit of a better prospect than him. Keeping Emi would have been nice but as we know he throw a huge fit and walked into Webbers office and told him to his face he wanted to leave and never wanted to play another game for us ever again so.. Edited December 29, 2021 by cambridgeshire canary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtopia 517 Posted December 29, 2021 (edited) I am happy with the approach, Rashica replacing Buendia, Gilmour for Skipp seemed decent, then Sargent, and Tzolis were bought for the future, and finally Normann, Melou, and Kabak to improve the squad it looked like tidy pieces of business. For me the mistake was changing structure. Edited December 29, 2021 by Newtopia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Angry 1,561 Posted December 29, 2021 I can’t find my post suggesting that we should sign Emmanuel Dennis and Moussa Sissoko but I did, honest 🤣 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted December 29, 2021 I would not have signed anyone else until we had one, possibly two defensive midfielders in the building both of whom were physically strong. I would not have loaned Williams. I would have used one loan to get some pace up front. I would not have signed 2 from Sargent, Tzolis and Gunn and used the funds for higher priority positions, maybe resigning the keeper we had last season for another year to save money. I would also have tried a lot harder to keep Buendia. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted December 29, 2021 I would have fought hard to keep Buendia. Did he want to go just for the money? Well offer more. I would not have gone for quantity. For £49M I would have gone for two maybe three players. A CDM obviously top of the wanted list. Another striker. And another No 10. And probably gone for someone like Cahill on a year contract. Ending up with cheaper alternatives hasn't worked. Is PLM any better than Vrancic for instance? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sgncfc 1,228 Posted December 29, 2021 It's very easy to say "buy a CDM", buy a striker", "buy a PL quality old hand". Give me names. It's well known we wanted Billing, Armstrong and Cahill. We couldn't get them, either because we couldn't compete financially or they didn't want to come. Our financial level for the PL is currently £9-10m value with £30-40k a week in wages (ish). You simply can't get the players we needed for those sums. If we'd paid £20m each for 3 players we still might be where we are. It made a lot of sense at the time to spread that money around more players and the chance of 3 or 4 of those working out well was high. Getting rid of older players who had not proved good enough for the PL the year before also made a lot of sense. Kabak, Gilmour, Rashica, Gunn and Tzolis all looked like great signings at the time. Unfortunately, only one of those (Rashica) has looked even average at the moment; the rest look like they've never kicked a ball at this level. For me, Kabak has been a particular disappointment; I thought we'd got a young Van Dijk - instead we got a less mobile version of Gibson. Last season in the Championship we defended better as a team, but we still let in loads of goals we shouldn't have. Skipp helped that process but we actually needed two CDM's to make any real difference and we couldn't even source or afford one. I personally think our style change has proved a bigger problem than the personnel. We do not have bad players. We just do not have good enough players for the game we are trying to play. Some are not performing at even 4 out of 10 on a regular basis, let alone the 7 or 8 which we needed from everyone to have a chance of staying up. I expect Smith to recruit 3 or 4 in January and I expect a couple to leave. I don't think we have a hope of staying up now, but I also don't think we will end up being embarrassing. And finally, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that we will finish in the top 6 of the Championship next season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Segura 84 Posted December 29, 2021 1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said: I dunno re. Gunn being a luxury - I think people are really forgetting how much some of the fan base were crapping their kecks when McGovern had to go in goal for a bit in the Championship, let alone when Barden stepped in. A younger goalie with potential to become a number one was very much needed, IMO. Agree that the Skipp/Tettey replacement was the real hole that went missing. I'll always argue there was an argument for putting Sörensen in late in the season when promotion was assured, but Skipp played so well there was no way Sörensen was getting past Skipp on performance-based merit. I do think Farke thought a deep-lying playmaker and two box-to-box sorts would solve the press problem from better sides, but that's been debunked so far. Disagree with keeping Vrancic. He and Stiepermann were the classic examples of lads who were good in the Champs, but were not able to step up. Throw in both their ages and Stiepermann's long Covid and Epstein-Barr issues and the time had come for both to go IMO. Those two being mentioned are more an indicator that Gilmour and Lees-Melou haven't settled in yet. I think most of the outbound loan business was pretty good, although I'd have kept Hugill and sent Idah. That said, Hugill was apparently knocking on the door asking for some loan action so my preference could be moot. Wouldn't have loaned Gilmour and Williams, I think the journeyman was needed more at LB as in theory we had five centre-halves this time with Hanley, Gibson, Kabak on loan, Zimmermann, and Omobamidele. Lees-Melou has disappointed me the most. He looked pretty decent in pre-season, looked like the all-action box-to-box guy we needed who could put a foot in at one end and drive hard to the other. And his credentials have looked really decent, he's not stepped up so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Segura 84 Posted December 29, 2021 Agree re Lees Melou thought he would be the most 'oven ready' of all the signings, but hes been a passenger really too slow in thought and deed. I hold my hands up here and say I was pretty happy with our summer signings, goes to show how much I know. The only one I would really have liked was Billing, does anyone more in the know than me know what happened there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,753 Posted December 29, 2021 (edited) We probably needed 3 x £20m signings ...not 11 signings totalling £65m+ It was was quality not quantity required. And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11 We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it. If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible. We needed players for the here and now Edited December 29, 2021 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danbury Yellow 126 Posted December 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: Why probably needed 3 x £20m signings ...not 11 signings totalling £65m+ It was was quality not quantity required. And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11 We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it. If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible. We needed players for the here and now Agree. But it’s difficult to predict. I thought we had signed some great players in the summer and was impressed with the ambition. But when you identify your targets, Ajer and Billing as you note, you have to make it happen and I think we could have, but the numbers started getting big for NCFC and we bottled it. I think we would be better off with both in our squad and potentially less likely to go down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smooth 114 Posted December 29, 2021 What you need is consistency in partnerships, cohesion and luck. Doesn't matter where you are in the football pyramid, as we know we lucked out with Pukki for example. As football fans we have seen Norwich have a number of relegations and promotions; which means we have done a lot right but not been able to then take that next step. As fans we have seen it more than players and management. As many have said the Defensive midfield position has not been addressed for over 7 years. We brought in Tettey from Rennes and he fitted the build but needed a little more of an engine and as we saw he did have fitness issues. He needed competition in that position and in fact an upgrade, it never came. Skipp came in and we all saw many of the traits we had been waiting for. We have needed at least 2 DM and never filled that position. We needed to solidify the centre of our midfield this season meaning we were hard to break down. This is before the self funding model which is here to stay and means we have high turnover and solid pros who will make new partnerships almost every season with new additions. Goals were needed and Dowell, Cantwell, Buendia needed help. Second striker was needed who could push on beyond Pukki this and next year. With Buendia moving on we needed these 2 to step up and new additions, rashica and tzolis are here with promise but I would have hoped Dowell and Cantwell showed more. Could they work with Gilmour maybe but we needed that solid defence and midfield, never got it and these 3 players have not seen their performances rise. A lot of players who we thought would have made a step up, so far haven't and so we have all players performing poorly, we need at least 5-6 to play out of their skins to get results in the Premier league. Money needs to be made available in Jan for a solidifying defensive midfielder and a goal scorer, recovery of Normann is imperative and our leaders to come forward. Byram really looked like a leader yesterday in amongst a shambles. We need serious grit. The last prem season needed grit after the restart and we saw a team that was devoid of any grit. We need it now and players back ASAP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big O 225 Posted December 29, 2021 I think the power of hindsight tell us we didn’t get the window right however I guess always difficult at the time. im a bit with Jim Smith on this one, once it was clear that Tettey, Vrancic, Stipermann we’re off and our chances of replacing Skipp were slim, we had to move to strengthen that area as a priority. I think most of our problems in the premier last time were down to an inability to compete in the middle of the park. Easier said than done of course, but I would have expected the vast majority of our spend to be on 2 strong powerful central midfielders and a Buendia replacement. Once Rashica was in, it should have been all focussed on the two in the middle, gilmour should have been a bonus. If we had 2 quality midfielders, gilmour, McClean and Rupp that would have been good for me. I understand the logic of a utility full back, back up keeps and then we clearly needed another forward player to compete with Rashica, Pukki, Cantwell and Dowell. it’s not necessarily the positions (other than we should have bought in 2 midfielders plus gilmour) we got wrong, more the actual players we ended up with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fromage Frais 10 Posted December 29, 2021 I quite liked the look of most of the signings tbf. However they did not and still do not address the issues We lost Skipp and needed to replace him with a tough physically able DM before skipp we had tetty we now have worse. The thrashings come from the midfield getting over run. We still do not have an overly strong, great in the air or mega fast striker. There is no plan B we dont steal goals or set pieces I dont even ask for a wonderful player just someone with a facet that causes havoc. We need a number 10 I assumed this was to be BG but since we seem to like playing him deeper then we should have signed a number 10 at least someone who can get into the box Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,606 Posted December 29, 2021 Difficult not to be Captain Hindsight here but I think there are three key areas we went wrong. 1- the central midfield. It was clear to almost everyone that a powerful, athletic defensive midfielder with a bit of bite was needed. This need only increased when we bought Gilmour in, who clearly needs protection. All I can think is that Webber rates Sorenson higher than Farke or Smith seems to and felt he would step up, as neither PLM or Normann fulfilled this massive need. 2- thinking too much about the future. £15m on Gunn and Tzolis, both of whom seem like players for two or three seasons time, if ever, was madness. You can't spend that sort of money for the future when you've not sorted the present. 3- a lack of leadership. Difficult to screen for this but the weak mentality we showed under Farke 2 seasons back remains despite a high player turnover. Our heads drop easily, we lack organisation and we seem incapable of doing basics like keeping it tight to start games. As you the OP says when you go through it player by player you can make a solid case for each signing but as a collective it hasn't worked. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 29, 2021 2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: We probably needed 3 x £20m signings ...not 11 signings totalling £65m+ It was was quality not quantity required. And actually, that would have worked out cheaper as it would have been only 3 wages to pay, not 11 We identified that we needed more height,strength and physicality and didnt really get it. If we indentified Ajer and Billing as players we needed, we should have gone and made sure it happened. If we lost out on targets because we fell short financially because we signed the likes of Tzolis for £10m, who Webber afmitted was a player for the future ,then its reprehensible. We needed players for the here and now This, 1000% Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nora's Ghost 157 Posted December 29, 2021 3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: I would have fought hard to keep Buendia. Did he want to go just for the money? Well offer more. I would not have gone for quantity. For £49M I would have gone for two maybe three players. A CDM obviously top of the wanted list. Another striker. And another No 10. And probably gone for someone like Cahill on a year contract. Ending up with cheaper alternatives hasn't worked. Is PLM any better than Vrancic for instance? Buendia wanted away from Norwich and he will again soon from Villa. He's an Argentinian and far too big for his boots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daisy 138 Posted December 29, 2021 Can't think of any other club which has been promoted to the Premier league who bought players with potential and /or for the future. Clearly we needed players with Premier league experience who could hit the ground running, sadly we failed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Petriix 2,835 Posted December 29, 2021 It's pretty simple: Replace Buendia and Skipp at £20m apiece a £10m McLean upgrade a free or loan CB One from Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis Keep Vrancic, Hugill, Barden, Soto, Hernandez, Martin, McCallum. That's a net spend of about £30m Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820 Posted December 29, 2021 Naming names is tough without access to the same resources that those in the club have, but the main issue, which I pointed out more than once during the window, was the lack of experience being recruited. All of our new signings, aside from a backup goalkeeper who was never expected to play much, were either under 21 (Gilmour, Williams), had no Premier League experience (Rashica, Lees-Melou, Normann) or both (Sargent, Tzolis, Kabak). I also questioned the need for Lees-Melou when we still needed a defensive midfielder as it looked like a case of quantity over quality, and I also said at the start of the window that we should've signed up Nyland as a cost-effective backup. However, I do admit that I was quite pleased with the window overall as the deals generally looked good in isolation, but I was always concerned about the business as a whole as it lacked experience and leadership. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channon’s Windmill 326 Posted December 29, 2021 Bought Ajer, bought a proper DM and bought a quality striker. Not bought anyone we did… oh and not sold our best player. Fag packet maths…but maybe double our spend but as everyone has said quality over quantity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Petriix said: It's pretty simple: Replace Buendia and Skipp at £20m apiece a £10m McLean upgrade a free or loan CB One from Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis Keep Vrancic, Hugill, Barden, Soto, Hernandez, Martin, McCallum. That's a net spend of about £30m This is where we enter the realms of fantasy. Vrancic, the exact opposite of the type of midfielder we need in this league. Hugill, who made no impact for us in the Champ and has been widely derided at WBA. Barden, who's very sadly had medical issues. Soto, who isn't playing for Porto's B team in the Portuguese whatever tier. Onel, struggled with form and fitness for the last 3ish years. Martin, can't get a game in L1 for MK Dons. McCallum, been ok at Champ level. ---- If we think the squad currently isn't cut out for the Prem (it isn't), then it's really not credible to suggest those players would remotely improve matters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DecentLevel 1 Posted December 29, 2021 Instead of: Gilmour -> keep vrancic. Our 2nd most creative player after buendia, serious threat from set pieces and long shots and was strong in the tackle. Massively underrated by some people Tzolis -> keep Hernandez. Brightest spark during project restart. Didn’t feature much last season but he’s more suited to our style this season, is direct, pacy and already settled in this team. Wouldn’t have done any worse Sargent -> King. Experience and quality as he’s showing at Watford. Pay him 60K for 3 years and he’d still cost us less than the £9m + wages we spent on Sargent. Kabak -> Cahill. Has the leadership and experience we desperately need. Embarrassing to lose out on him to a team in the league below. Lees-Melou -> a proper physical box-to-box midfielder. Stretch the budget with money saved on Tzolis and go for Billing, will Hughes, sissoko etc Rashica, Normann and Williams were decent bits of business. I’d have kept Nyland over Gunn but can see why they went for him. Otherwise that leaves us an extra PL loan to use as well as foreign loans for a dedicated CDM (hamza choudhury?) and a RW. Overall this helps keep the core of the squad together a bit more and bolsters the spine with some proper PL experience and leadership 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites