Taking the knee

[Badger 2,406]

27 minutes ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

Charlton, Millwall... It's all the same to the out-of-touch middle class. 

Millwall has a history with racist fans though.

 

e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/01/millwall-fined-10000-for-supporters-racist-chanting-at-everton-fa-cup-tie

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/8289363/millwall-racist-stadium-closure-fa-everton/

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenham-hotspur/story/3081457/tottenham-strongly-condemn-alleged-racist-chanting-by-millwall-fans?device=featurephone

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/dec/28/millwall-fans-racist-abuse-allegations-wolves-kick-it-out-fa

 

Oh and homophobic abuse too - presumably they were Marxists as well?

https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/18184721.police-appealing-witnesses-homophobic-abuse-millwalls-win-reading/

But presumably some on here will go on supporting these "champions of free speech" standing up against the far left? 🤦‍♂️

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Badger
Added link

[The Real Buh 3,440]

28 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

This is actually the whole point. And the proof it’s got NOTHING to do with the BLM group despite some posters curiously still trying to make this all about politics 🤔

For some inexplicable reason there are a handful of people that still can’t grasp why the players are taking a knee. And you have to wonder why when it’s been spelt out to them LOUD and CLEAR that it is not about a political group but simply an anti racism gesture, why is it that they still oppose the gesture and keep banging on about something different entirely? There can be no excuses at all. They’re refusing to accept it for the simple and crystal clear message that it is. So it’s no wonder that leaves one final conclusion, does it?

 

Calling them all racist is all about your own experience. It’s an indulgent act. You are doing it for your own self satisfaction. It’s a white and black view of a complex issue. If you keep branding people racist for absolutely everything you cheapen the whole issue and produce a drag factor on genuine efforts to confront the issue.

[kirku 1,334]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

I'm also a white person born in Norwich. I also read History at University and I did a full module on black history, taught by a black visiting professor from the US. Everybody's experience is different, but it all comes down to parenting and education. When both of those are good, racism, culturalism, feminism, North/South divides, class wars and differences in general all disappear. 

Over time, as a society develops and becomes more homogenous, perceptions alter. Many of the things once accepted as "normal" become unacceptable. Historical events are reported differently. Social issues change and different things become important. That's life. Some people struggle with those changes, others don't. Those who struggle feel marginalised and the stronger ones speak out and are made to look silly and out of touch, when all they are doing really is asking the same questions in a different way. They are also questioning whether everything they ever learned; all their experiences and memories; were they all somehow wrong or unfair?

We have to be careful about how we exclude large parts of our society by insisting on change. The stats given can probably equally be applied to many other categories of difference - male/female; age groups; sexuality; even down to apparently insignificant details like hair colour or height and weight. All this does is emphasise division, rather than seek to include and gently remould attitudes.

For this reason I don't think initiatives like BLM or Kick it Out actually work. What they do is polarise already existing feelings. There has to be an educational inclusion - all ism's are learned behaviours and we have to stop them being learned - but teaching white guilt is as bad as not teaching slavery.

 

It's good that you were given the opportunity to study black history, but it does somewhat underline the point I was making that you had to attend university, read history, and then have a chance encounter with a visiting professor. Does it also not speak volumes that this professor was an African American? 

Sticking to the education point, I've not seen anyone advocate for teaching "white guilt". White people are no more "guilty" by the lottery of birth than any other ethnic group. As a society, we shouldn't shy away from teaching immutable truths.

While I agree about resistance to change and the evolution of societal norms, they've not, for example, shifted enough in living memory towards Colston slaving and murdering his way towards unimaginable wealth and social prominence.

Change has to happen, be that gradually or otherwise. Where else would we be if it didn't?

Edited December 12, 2020 by kirku

[Naturalcynic 631]

44 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

This is actually the whole point. And the proof it’s got NOTHING to do with the BLM group despite some posters curiously still trying to make this all about politics 🤔

But it’s easy to see why some people do associate the symbolism with BLM:

 

[K Lo 224]

On 11/12/2020 at 13:48, NFN FC said:

But no one is supporting BLM, ffs

 

 

No, I wonder why I thought that they were supporting BLM....
 

[Orly 277]

I'm not touching the emotive subject matter within this thread with a bargepole because it's not worth the hassle, I will however state my belief that no-one should be banned for booing (regardless of whether they boo taking the knee, or an opponent diving).

It's a non-violent way to voice dissent, and if you remove the ability to dissent, then you are asking for much MUCH bigger problems from the potential 'mindless few' than a few disgruntled jeers.  

[Alex Moss 2,165]

6 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

But it’s easy to see why some people do associate the symbolism with BLM:

 

Now post this seasons shirt 👍

People are still defending the booing of taking a knee even though it’s CRYSTAL CLEAR this is about racism and NOT politics. The likes of yourselves have been told this so you know full well, yet you still defend it 🤔

[Naturalcynic 631]

5 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Now post this seasons shirt 👍

People are still defending the booing of taking a knee even though it’s CRYSTAL CLEAR this is about racism and NOT politics. The likes of yourselves have been told this so you know full well, yet you still defend it 🤔

You’re clutching at straws now.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

My girlfriend and three nieces are part of a non-white demographic which, on average, is one of the top performers educationally and financially within the UK. I'm looking for one of you highly educated and morally enlightened folk to come round to teach them about how they are unfairly advantaged by their "something privilege" within our, errrrr "racist white supremacy". Any takers?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

9 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

You’re clutching at straws now.

My flat earther chum, this entire thread you’ve been clutching at more straws than Worzel Gummidge having a w@nk 👍

[Mello Yello 2,296]

Oh look.....a Strawman argument.....

[Herman 9,777]

 

[daly 504]

Taking the knee before England games is easier for our players, watching the passion they put in mouthing the words of The National Anthem that a small proportion of the team know is embarrassing 

[Bovril 219]

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

[Fuzzar 1,702]

2 minutes ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

Yes, he stood. But, it's a long way down for him. 

[Indy 3,300]

2 hours ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

Yep his choice, to be honest like someone said today, I’d much rather that football goes back to the anti racist kick it out campaign as there are other cultural footballers who suffer racist abuse, it’s not just a black campaign for me. Everyone is important in sport.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Indy

[Taylor324 36]

2 hours ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

Well done Zimbo! - The first footballer I've seen take a stand - Like Les Ferdinand said .... "A lot of people have been fooled out there"

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

2 hours ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

German + white + not taking the knee = Fascist

2 + 2 + 2 = 71

 

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

9 minutes ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

German + white + not taking the knee = Fascist

2 + 2 + 2 = 71

 

 

Whereas in reality nobody on here has had a go at him. 

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

3 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Whereas in reality nobody on here has had a go at him. 

Which they shouldn't.

And neither should anybody on here 'have a go' at those that use hyperbole to point out the stupidity of their argument.

 

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

43 minutes ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Which they shouldn't.

And neither should anybody on here 'have a go' at those that use hyperbole to point out the stupidity of their argument.

 

 

And nobody should 'have a go' at players for taking the knee. But unfortunately that was what happened at Millwall last week (and one moron at Carrow Road in the week). 

[Jim Smith 2,322]

3 hours ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

He did on Wednesday too. As did one of the (black) Nottingham Forest strikers. 

[Taylor324 36]

18 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

He did on Wednesday too. As did one of the (black) Nottingham Forest strikers. 

I think players are slowly beginning to wake up, at least the more intelligent players are - It's better to support anti-racism through actions and holding an honest belief in tackling the problems through genuine channels - Not via an organisation with an extreme ideology and questionable motives - Respect to Zimbo 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Taylor324

[daly 504]

3 hours ago, Bovril said:

Anyone notice that Zimmermann appeared to remain standing whilst everyone else took a knee? 

How many more will follow and not be like sheep 

[NFN FC 1,123]

17 minutes ago, daly said:

How many more will follow and not be like sheep 

I thought sheep do follow 🤔

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

40 minutes ago, daly said:

How many more will follow and not be like sheep 

Hee hee - not too sharp on the old logic tonight are we Daly? 🤣

[Mr.Carrow 376]

There's a good German film called "The Wave" about the dangers of groupthink, authoritarianism and social coercion. Having met and traveled with many Germans in many different countries, I've got the impression that an understanding of the tactics of these groups is quite a big thing within German culture (for understandable reasons).

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

15 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

There's a good German film called "The Wave" about the dangers of groupthink, authoritarianism and social coercion. Having met and traveled with many Germans in many different countries, I've got the impression that an understanding of the tactics of these groups is quite a big thing within German culture (for understandable reasons).

Apparently, according to TL, if you're not into groupthink, authoritarianism and social coercion, you're a moron.

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

9 minutes ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Apparently, according to TL, if you're not into groupthink, authoritarianism and social coercion, you're a moron.

 

 

The argument these days is less Left Vs Right and more Authoritarian Vs Libertarian.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

15 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The argument these days is less Left Vs Right and more Authoritarian Vs Libertarian.

And the oddest thing about it all is that Libertarians were originally left wing, but these ideals seem to fit more closely with those in the modern day who are more right leaning . Where as those who are more on the left seem to be inclined towards an authoritarianist point of view, much like the N@7is. (which is probably why they don't like people to use that word)

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Iwans Big Toe