Taking the knee

[Mr.Carrow 376]

8 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Accusing people of racism with no justification is b0llocks. He wouldn’t do it to my face, just wants to act the hard man online. And I heard he touches dogs. I don’t base that on anything I just thought I’d say something horrendous with no justification as that’s what we’re doing apparently.

One of the ironies of the whole "epidemic of racism/systemic racism" narrative is that if this were true the word wouldn't be so unbelievably loaded. It's up there with "paedophile" now and that indicates a society that takes the issue massively seriously rather than one which downplays it or doesn't care about it. If society were awash with racists a lot of people would brush it off and the accusation wouldn't have the enormous power it currently has.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Mr.Carrow

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, Bonzo said:

There is evidently a disconnection between the statement "BLM" (which of course they do) and the political movement of "BLM" which would seem to be a political organisation.

These two are different things. The statement and the political movement.

BLM is also a curious and controversial statement in the sense of whom the intended recipient of this message should be.

For example, is this a statement intended for Black people? To my mind probably not. A black person presumably already knows that their own life matters as do the lives of their family.

So my conclusion is rightly or wrongly that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is intended for white people based on the assumption that hopefully Black people already value themselves (which of course they should do).

If this is the case then the statement "Black Lives Matter" must be based on the premise that White people do not think that Black Lives matter and whilst this could be true for some white people it could also be argued that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is thus a form of Gas-lighting of white people. Perhaps not as overtly as the statement "All white people are racist" but this is more or less the intended message because who exactly is saying that black lives do not matter? Not me. Probably not you. Clearly not black people. Which leaves white people or maybe Asians. But given that the statues which BLM are targeting are universally those of white people I think we can give the Asians a free pass on this one. 

As a consequence of this premise it might also be reasoned that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is therefore racist in itself given the presumed intent to Gaslight white people by making such a statement. 

Campaigning against racism with a racist slogan like this seems a little bit like fornicating for virginity. It is the gambit of the race baiter and condemns all white people universally and unfairly so. 

On the matter of deaths in police custody (and thus the idea of taking the knee)  here in the UK there have been 160 in the last 10 years of whom 13 have been black people. Statistically given the arrest figures and relative distribution of ethnicity of people arrested a white person is almost 25% more likely to die in police custody in the UK than a black person. This adds further to the sense that the BLM campaign itself is Gas-lighting white people as their is no rationale or evident basis to transpose the injustice of US police brutality to our own police force or society. 

There is no doubt that racism exists and that it exists in football but to Blithely adopt the BLM campaign as a vehicle to confront it in the UK is both morally wrong and hypocritical and furthermore because BLM also ties to a specific political movement it seems to be at odds with the ideal that politics and football should be separate.  

"Kick racism out of football" was intended to do just that and not to identify white people as the victimisers of black people or to condemn all white people as BLM has done but instead to unite all colours against this evil. Martin Luther King was famous for asking for his children to be treated just like everyone else and instead of attributing victim and victimiser statues to various communities his focus was on what united us as humans. One would hope that he too would condemn the single interest politics of the modern day for this reason.

Indeed, BLM seems to act solely as the vehicle for a single interest group which is intent of advancing itself by using white guilt and the gas-lighting of white people as its methodology. Whilst football should take a strong stand against racism BLM is not the vehicle for this unless the actual intention is to exact some sort of retribution against white football supporters by invoking white guilt or gas lighting white football supporters or even just to simply to virtue signal without really giving any proper thought to what BLM is really about either as a statement or as a political movement.

Kick Racism out of football was and is a far better vehicle, it managed to serve it's purpose without being racist in and of itself and also without being confused with a political movement. Let's bring it back. 

 

 

Brilliantly argued.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I think you have misunderstood my point.

IBT suggested that any act, gesture, slogan, statement or image, no matter how noble or worthwhile, should be banned. I used Remembrance Day as an example of one that would be banned under this suggestion, with my 😳 indicating what I thought of that.

So you ban Gay Pride at Carrow Road?

[NFN FC 1,123]

14 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

So you ban Gay Pride at Carrow Road?

Would you if you could? 

[Herman 9,770]

2 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Would you if you could? 

It's his favourite day out.

[NFN FC 1,123]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's his favourite day out.

Good for him, ain't nothing wrong with that

[Mr.Carrow 376]

59 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Brilliantly argued.

Agreed. Funny how nobody wants to engage with it isn't it? 🤔

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Brilliantly argued.

Btw I believe the trick used in the (extremely clever) BLM name is called the Motte and Bailey tactic. You construct a lovely progressive sounding name and definition which no-one in their right mind can disagree with (Motte), then say and promote all kinds of outrageous and controversial stuff (Bailey). If you get caught out in the Bailey, you retreat to the Motte and accuse those questioning you as being against the wholly pure and progressive values of the Motte.

Feminists do this all the time: get called out for #killallmen, rape culture, "all men are potential rapists" etc then retreat to the "The dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes. If you are questioning feminism you obviously don't believe in that therefore you're an evil misogynist". 

It's fundamentally authoritarian: agree with everything we say or you will be attacked and shamed as a terrible person.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Btw I believe the trick used in the (extremely clever) BLM name is called the Motte and Bailey tactic. You construct a lovely progressive sounding name and definition which no-one in their right mind can disagree with (Motte), then say and promote all kinds of outrageous and controversial stuff (Bailey). If you get caught out in the Bailey, you retreat to the Motte and accuse those questioning you as being against the wholly pure and progressive values of the Motte.

Feminists do this all the time: get called out for #killallmen, rape culture, "all men are potential rapists" etc then retreat to the "The dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes. If you are questioning feminism you obviously don't believe in that therefore you're an evil misogynist". 

It's fundamentally authoritarian: agree with everything we say or you will be attacked and shamed as a terrible person.

Professing to be wise they instead became fools.

 

 

[Mr Angry 1,562]

4 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

So you ban Gay Pride at Carrow Road?

No, why would you think that-have you not read what I said?

[kirku 1,332]

13 hours ago, Bonzo said:

1) As a consequence of this premise it might also be reasoned that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is therefore racist in itself given the presumed intent to Gaslight white people by making such a statement. 

2) This adds further to the sense that the BLM campaign itself is Gas-lighting white people as their is no rationale or evident basis to transpose the injustice of US police brutality to our own police force or society. 

3) There is no doubt that racism exists and that it exists in football.

1) You can't overuse the phrase "gaslight white people" to this extent and then also make your point that "there is no doubt racism exists". That is an absurd contradiction.

2) As you have identified, there are elements of the protest that will only apply to certain countries.

The "defund the police" slogan has been deliberately misconstrued in a sadly yet predictably successful attempt to discredit.

In the context of a hugely well-funded, militarised, and sometimes homicidal American police force, it makes sense.

In the context of a Conservative austerity ravaged UK police force, not so much.

However, your post is largely based on the premise that the protest is solely about police brutality, it is not.

3) That "there is no doubt that racism exists" is the reason the protests exist.

As mentioned earlier, it isn't just about police brutality. Systematic racism is embedded within various structures of our society.

Has it got better over the years? Yes.

Does that mean everything is perfect? No.

Here's a short sample:

"Stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that black people are now nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

Black people made up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

Worse education transfers to worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

So, a black person is 10x more likely to be stopped by police and then significantly more likely to be arrested. If arrested they are disproportionately likely to be imprisoned. They are likely to have had a significantly worse education and have much higher levels of unemployment, and when employed paid roughly 10% less.

As you referenced statues, if they lived in Bristol, they may also have had to walk past a statue of a man who directly profiteered off the enslavement and brutal death of their ancestors and potentially will have gone to a school named after him.

And want to know why the BLM protests do make a difference? As a white person born in Norwich, I'd never heard of Edward Colston, despite reading History at university. But I know about him now. I went through the entire British schooling system and was never once taught about the British slave trade. Obviously, I was aware that it had happened but that relied on my curiosity rather than a balanced view of British history being taught in schools. (Maybe this explains the pathetic objection to the National Trust providing historical facts about certain buildings? As a nation, we've been fed a sanitised and jingoistic historical diet for too long.)

I looked into why these protests sprung up, and it was quickly apparent that George Floyd's death was the spark that lit the tinderbox. It has resulted in me volunteering to be a mentor to help social mobility in young people from all backgrounds across the country. 

Perhaps things can change if more people engaged with the issues at hand rather than take comfort in deflection and ignorance.

Edited December 12, 2020 by kirku

[Herman 9,770]

Very good post @kirku. 👍

As an aside I would highly recommend a visit to the slavery museum in Liverpool. It doesn't harangue or go out of its way to make people feel guilt but simply educates on what actually happened in those dark days of British history. A proper and rounded education on the whole aspects of our shared history is what is necessary rather than the Ladybird outlook that we are fed through school. We may not be in the pickle that we now find ourselves in if people had a true understanding of history.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Very good post @kirku. 👍

As an aside I would highly recommend a visit to the slavery museum in Liverpool. It doesn't harangue or go out of its way to make people feel guilt but simply educates on what actually happened in those dark days of British history. A proper and rounded education on the whole aspects of our shared history is what is necessary rather than the Ladybird outlook that we are fed through school. We may not be in the pickle that we now find ourselves in if people had a true understanding of history.

There can't be a slavery museum in Liverpool as Kirku has just told us black history isnt taught

[2clubbanker 21]

They should be no talking the knee as the BLM is a very dangerous racist political movement just look at their website and the destruction they have done no place for hate in football. They should be a new one family on race (football family human race) 

[NFN FC 1,123]

12 minutes ago, 2clubbanker said:

They should be no talking the knee as the BLM is a very dangerous racist political movement just look at their website and the destruction they have done no place for hate in football. They should be a new one family on race (football family human race) 

What does that even mean? 

[Herman 9,770]

21 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

There can't be a slavery museum in Liverpool as Kirku has just told us black history isnt taught

Maybe if you had read his post properly you wouldn't have come out with this.

[The Bristol Nest 513]

47 minutes ago, kirku said:

1) You can't overuse the phrase "gaslight white people" to this extent and then also make your point that "there is no doubt racism exists". That is an absurd contradiction.

2) As you have identified, there are elements of the protest that will only apply to certain countries.

The "defund the police" slogan has been deliberately misconstrued in a sadly yet predictably successful attempt to discredit.

In the context of a hugely well-funded, militarised, and sometimes homicidal American police force, it makes sense.

In the context of a Conservative austerity ravaged UK police force, not so much.

However, your post is largely based on the premise that the protest is solely about police brutality, it is not.

3) That "there is no doubt that racism exists" is the reason the protests exist.

As mentioned earlier, it isn't just about police brutality. Systematic racism is embedded within various structures of our society.

Has it got better over the years? Yes.

Does that mean everything is perfect? No.

Here's a short sample:

"Stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that black people are now nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

Black people made up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

Worse education transfers to worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

So, a black person is 10x more likely to be stopped by police and then significantly more likely to be arrested. If arrested they are disproportionately likely to be imprisoned. They are likely to have had a significantly worse education and have much higher levels of unemployment, and when employed paid roughly 10% less.

As you referenced statues, if they lived in Bristol, they may also have had to walk past a statue of a man who directly profiteered off the enslavement and brutal death of their ancestors and potentially will have gone to a school named after him.

And want to know why the BLM protests do make a difference? As a white person born in Norwich, I'd never heard of Edward Colston, despite reading History at university. But I know about him now. I went through the entire British schooling system and was never once taught about the British slave trade. Obviously, I was aware that it had happened but that relied on my curiosity rather than a balanced view of British history being taught in schools. (Maybe this explains the pathetic objection to the National Trust providing historical facts about certain buildings? As a nation, we've been fed a sanitised and jingoistic historical diet for too long.)

I looked into why these protests sprung up, and it was quickly apparent that George Floyd's death was the spark that lit the tinderbox. It has resulted in me volunteering to be a mentor to help social mobility in young people from all backgrounds across the country. 

Perhaps things can change if more people engaged with the issues at hand rather than take comfort in deflection and ignorance.

Great response to a lengthy piece of deflection.

[Badger 2,405]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

"Stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that black people are now nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

Black people made up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

Worse education transfers to worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

So, a black person is 10x more likely to be stopped by police and then significantly more likely to be arrested. If arrested they are disproportionately likely to be imprisoned. They are likely to have had a significantly worse education and have much higher levels of unemployment, and when employed paid roughly 10% less.

The whole post was excellent, thank you. I suspect that there will be very little engagement with the facts you have presented because it doesn't fit the agenda of some to actually acknowledge racism is a serious problem in British society and worse in parts of the US.

Some on here do acknowledge racism's existence but argue that we should continue to do what we have done before, which has resulted in the situation you describe above and slander those that wish to support further action. They use the normal tactics of suggesting the tactics of a tiny minority (e.g. SWP) are typical of the whole movement, yet they would be  rightly enraged if we were to suggest that because English nationalists defile the flag and behave in abohrent ways (e.g. the assassination of Jo Cox) that the patriotism and pride in the national are therefore extremist beliefs.

The question therefore exists of how can you describe yourself as opposed to racism if you openly oppose measures that have given the anti-racist message great momentum in the US, UK and beyond and support measures that have shown to be ineffectual?

It will be interesting to see the extent and way in which some on here address the facts that you give (my guess is that one of the tactics used will be the presentation of alternative facts that they suggest shows that everything is OK). Of course, they might not engage at all and/or just resort to personal attack, which is the favoured modus operandi of some on here.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Badger
inserted word

[hogesar 9,676]

12 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Btw I believe the trick used in the (extremely clever) BLM name is called the Motte and Bailey tactic. You construct a lovely progressive sounding name and definition which no-one in their right mind can disagree with (Motte), then say and promote all kinds of outrageous and controversial stuff (Bailey). If you get caught out in the Bailey, you retreat to the Motte and accuse those questioning you as being against the wholly pure and progressive values of the Motte.

Feminists do this all the time: get called out for #killallmen, rape culture, "all men are potential rapists" etc then retreat to the "The dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes. If you are questioning feminism you obviously don't believe in that therefore you're an evil misogynist". 

It's fundamentally authoritarian: agree with everything we say or you will be attacked and shamed as a terrible person.

Not agreed with all your posts on this but this bit I do actually agree with. It's a dangerous slope to be looking down on.

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, 2clubbanker said:

They should be no talking the knee as the BLM is a very dangerous racist political movement just look at their website and the destruction they have done no place for hate in football. They should be a new one family on race (football family human race) 

1. More in hope that expectation, could you provide a link to a part of their website that shows them to be a "a very dangerous racist political movement."

2. Taking the knee preceded BLM in any case. 

[sgncfc 1,228]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

As a white person born in Norwich, I'd never heard of Edward Colston, despite reading History at university. But I know about him now. I went through the entire British schooling system and was never once taught about the British slave trade.

I'm also a white person born in Norwich. I also read History at University and I did a full module on black history, taught by a black visiting professor from the US. Everybody's experience is different, but it all comes down to parenting and education. When both of those are good, racism, culturalism, feminism, North/South divides, class wars and differences in general all disappear. 

Over time, as a society develops and becomes more homogenous, perceptions alter. Many of the things once accepted as "normal" become unacceptable. Historical events are reported differently. Social issues change and different things become important. That's life. Some people struggle with those changes, others don't. Those who struggle feel marginalised and the stronger ones speak out and are made to look silly and out of touch, when all they are doing really is asking the same questions in a different way. They are also questioning whether everything they ever learned; all their experiences and memories; were they all somehow wrong or unfair?

We have to be careful about how we exclude large parts of our society by insisting on change. The stats given can probably equally be applied to many other categories of difference - male/female; age groups; sexuality; even down to apparently insignificant details like hair colour or height and weight. All this does is emphasise division, rather than seek to include and gently remould attitudes.

For this reason I don't think initiatives like BLM or Kick it Out actually work. What they do is polarise already existing feelings. There has to be an educational inclusion - all ism's are learned behaviours and we have to stop them being learned - but teaching white guilt is as bad as not teaching slavery.

 

[Pugin 601]

5 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I'm also a white person born in Norwich. I also read History at University and I did a full module on black history, taught by a black visiting professor from the US. Everybody's experience is different, but it all comes down to parenting and education. When both of those are good, racism, culturalism, feminism, North/South divides, class wars and differences in general all disappear. 

Over time, as a society develops and becomes more homogenous, perceptions alter. Many of the things once accepted as "normal" become unacceptable. Historical events are reported differently. Social issues change and different things become important. That's life. Some people struggle with those changes, others don't. Those who struggle feel marginalised and the stronger ones speak out and are made to look silly and out of touch, when all they are doing really is asking the same questions in a different way. They are also questioning whether everything they ever learned; all their experiences and memories; were they all somehow wrong or unfair?

We have to be careful about how we exclude large parts of our society by insisting on change. The stats given can probably equally be applied to many other categories of difference - male/female; age groups; sexuality; even down to apparently insignificant details like hair colour or height and weight. All this does is emphasise division, rather than seek to include and gently remould attitudes.

For this reason I don't think initiatives like BLM or Kick it Out actually work. What they do is polarise already existing feelings. There has to be an educational inclusion - all ism's are learned behaviours and we have to stop them being learned - but teaching white guilt is as bad as not teaching slavery.

 

You speak so much sense. But I would add that extremism at one end of the spectrum promotes extremism at the other end of the spectrum, and in this way the 'gradual progression towards enlightenment' (to coin a phrase) can be stopped in its tracks and even reversed.

Hence, Trump has caused a backlash in the States of which radical BLM is a symptom, and progress towards racial harmony, and even the homogenous society which you describe (which neither you nor I will live to see), seems a distant ideal.

My sympathies will always be with the oppressed, its in my being and I can't help it, which in this instance translates into support for the broader BLM movement and any organisation seeking a levelling of the playing field. Hundreds of years of oppression and atrocities against black people cannot be ignored. I will even make allowance and try to understand the extreme wing of BLM. Just imagine if the boot was on the other foot! 

I have been up to City Hall on a Sunday afternoon earlier in the year just to show support for BLM, or my understanding of BLM. I regard BLM as a statement and a belief.

I would rather stand with those people than Millwall supporters the like of whom were murdering Stephen Lawrence barely a generation ago, and still celebrate the fact.

 

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, Pugin said:

My sympathies will always be with the oppressed, its in my being and I can't help it, which in this instance translates into support for the broader BLM movement and any organisation seeking a levelling of the playing field. Hundreds of years of oppression and atrocities against black people cannot be ignored. I will even make allowance and try to understand the extreme wing of BLM. Just imagine if the boot was on the other foot! 

I have been up to City Hall on a Sunday afternoon earlier in the year just to show support for BLM, or my understanding of BLM. I regard BLM as a statement and a belief.

I would rather stand with those people than Millwall supporters the like of whom were murdering Stephen Lawrence barely a generation ago, and still celebrate the fact.

👍

[Midlands Yellow 3,988]

Ron Atkinson has been very quiet on the subject. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

22 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Btw I thought the Black Lives Matter thing had been resolved at the end of last season? The Black Lives Matter logos were dropped from shirts after football authorities were alerted to possible anti-Semitic links of political elements of Black Lives Matter? They then switched to “no room for racism

https://www.premierleague.com/NoRoomForRacism

Which as far as I can see is a non-political anti-racism organisation setup by the premier league so I’m happy to support it? Seems reasonable to me?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8691643/Premier-League-clubs-set-DITCH-Black-Lives-Matter-badges-sleeves-flight-returns.html

This is actually the whole point. And the proof it’s got NOTHING to do with the BLM group despite some posters curiously still trying to make this all about politics 🤔

For some inexplicable reason there are a handful of people that still can’t grasp why the players are taking a knee. And you have to wonder why when it’s been spelt out to them LOUD and CLEAR that it is not about a political group but simply an anti racism gesture, why is it that they still oppose the gesture and keep banging on about something different entirely? There can be no excuses at all. They’re refusing to accept it for the simple and crystal clear message that it is. So it’s no wonder that leaves one final conclusion, does it?

 

[Mr Angry 1,562]

1 hour ago, Pugin said:

My sympathies will always be with the oppressed, its in my being and I can't help it, which in this instance translates into support for the broader BLM movement and any organisation seeking a levelling of the playing field. Hundreds of years of oppression and atrocities against black people cannot be ignored. I will even make allowance and try to understand the extreme wing of BLM. Just imagine if the boot was on the other foot! 

I have been up to City Hall on a Sunday afternoon earlier in the year just to show support for BLM, or my understanding of BLM. I regard BLM as a statement and a belief.

I would rather stand with those people than Millwall supporters the like of whom were murdering Stephen Lawrence barely a generation ago, and still celebrate the fact.

 

This is how I feel too.

I’d never seen anything linking the Stephen Lawrence to football fans, let alone Millwall. After a bit of research it seems that they were actually Charlton fans.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

There can't be a slavery museum in Liverpool as Kirku has just told us black history isnt taught

A bit childish? Non? 

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

14 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

This is how I feel too.

I’d never seen anything linking the Stephen Lawrence to football fans, let alone Millwall. After a bit of research it seems that they were actually Charlton fans.

Charlton, Millwall... It's all the same to the out-of-touch middle class. 

[Badger 2,405]

15 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I’d never seen anything linking the Stephen Lawrence to football fans, let alone Millwall. After a bit of research it seems that they were actually Charlton fans.

Regrettably, there has been at least one Norwich fan involved as well: 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/nov/26/race.football

[sgncfc 1,228]

22 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

This is actually the whole point. And the proof it’s got NOTHING to do with the BLM group despite some posters curiously still trying to make this all about politics 🤔

For some inexplicable reason there are a handful of people that still can’t grasp why the players are taking a knee. And you have to wonder why when it’s been spelt out to them LOUD and CLEAR that it is not about a political group but simply an anti racism gesture, why is it that they still oppose the gesture and keep banging on about something different entirely? There can be no excuses at all. They’re refusing to accept it for the simple and crystal clear message that it is. So it’s no wonder that leaves one final conclusion, does it?

 

Agreed - although it doesn't help when people like Dion Dublin equate taking the knee to supporting BLM as he did after the Millwall incident. It's not that surprising that some people still can't grasp it if those central characters can't.