Taking the knee

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[Herman 9,779]

6 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The argument these days is less Left Vs Right and more Authoritarian Vs Libertarian.

Maybe you should see how the so called Libertarians are acting in the States. It's not a pretty sight.

[kirku 1,334]

17 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

My girlfriend and three nieces are part of a non-white demographic which, on average, is one of the top performers educationally and financially within the UK. I'm looking for one of you highly educated and morally enlightened folk to come round to teach them about how they are unfairly advantaged by their "something privilege" within our, errrrr "racist white supremacy". Any takers?

[Naturalcynic 631]

7 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

And the oddest thing about it all is that Libertarians were originally left wing, but these ideals seem to fit more closely with those in the modern day who are more right leaning . Where as those who are more on the left seem to be inclined towards an authoritarianist point of view, much like the N@7is. (which is probably why they don't like people to use that word)

 

 

Red fascists is an apposite description.

[NFN FC 1,123]

7 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

And the oddest thing about it all is that Libertarians were originally left wing, but these ideals seem to fit more closely with those in the modern day who are more right leaning . Where as those who are more on the left seem to be inclined towards an authoritarianist point of view, much like the N@7is. (which is probably why they don't like people to use that word)

 

 

This is a very broad assumption but fits for the BLM politics. 

Probably due to the way the recent political campaigns have been. Polarisation via social media. Everyone is trying to make the world black or white, left or right, libertarian or authoritarian, right or wrong. The world is grey! 

[Pugin 601]

9 hours ago, daly said:

How many more will follow and not be like sheep 

Haha. That does it. I have determined to record all Norfolkisms, and maybe even publish them in a couple of years' time. This offering will definitely make the cut.

The first entry will be from the Eastern Daily Press during the week, where it was stated that The Fat Cat Brewery decorated the bar in The Fat Cat with 'brewery armour'! Seemingly, the writer and sub editor had not heard of breweriana.

 🙂

[daly 504]

10 hours ago, NFN FC said:

I thought sheep do follow 🤔

Just watched 4 hours of football on BBC YouTube etc so probably did not explain myself accordingly  

My point was that the sheep are those who take the knee irrespective of their true  feelings 

Bah Bah Bah

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by daly

[daly 504]

57 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Haha. That does it. I have determined to record all Norfolkisms, and maybe even publish them in a couple of years' time. This offering will definitely make the cut.

The first entry will be from the Eastern Daily Press during the week, where it was stated that The Fat Cat Brewery decorated the bar in The Fat Cat with 'brewery armour'! Seemingly, the writer and sub editor had not heard of breweriana.

 🙂

Would think publishers will be queuing up for your book 

Probably be in line for The Booker Prize 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

15 minutes ago, daly said:

Would think publishers will be queuing up for your book 

Probably be in line for The Booker Prize 

 

Says Shakespeare.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

2 hours ago, kirku said:

Loads of articles such as this around:

https://medium.com/@paulcabellon/brown-privilege-12eab13a4899

[Fuzzar 1,702]

1 hour ago, daly said:

Just watched 4 hours of football on BBC YouTube etc so probably did not explain myself accordingly  

My point was that the sheep are those who take the knee irrespective of their true  feelings 

Bah Bah Bah

 

 

 

 

Sheep that don't like Christmas?

[Pugin 601]

1 hour ago, daly said:

Just watched 4 hours of football on BBC YouTube etc so probably did not explain myself accordingly  

My point was that the sheep are those who take the knee irrespective of their true  feelings 

Bah Bah Bah

 

 

 

 

No one is criticising you. But you goofed and it's funny. We all goof 🙂

Listen to Muhammed Ali talking about endemic racism. Many a true word is spoken in jest. For speaking out as he did across the world, to a largely white audience, he showed his trademark bravery and intelligence. Today, in one way or another, he would be destroyed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-52988605

[Move Klose 303]

Am I right in thinking Zimmermann doesnt kneel before kick off. I saw a pic yesterday but I'm not sure if it caught him just before he kneeled (everyone else was kneeling) or if he had stopped and got up before everyone else.

[Badger 2,406]

On 12/12/2020 at 07:13, kirku said:

Here's a short sample:

"Stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that black people are now nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

Black people made up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

Worse education transfers to worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

So, a black person is 10x more likely to be stopped by police and then significantly more likely to be arrested. If arrested they are disproportionately likely to be imprisoned. They are likely to have had a significantly worse education and have much higher levels of unemployment, and when employed paid roughly 10% less.

As you referenced statues, if they lived in Bristol, they may also have had to walk past a statue of a man who directly profiteered off the enslavement and brutal death of their ancestors and potentially will have gone to a school named after him.

As predicted none of those that supported the booing of an anti-racist stance have made any attempt to deal with this excellent and detailed post by Kirku.

Now this could be because it doesn't "suit their agenda" and makes their arguments look puerile or alternatively it could (if we are being very charitable) be because they have forgotten.

I have posted this to remind them - let's see if they respond this time - if they don't, I think that we know why.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Badger
Corrected mistake

[Move Klose 303]

[Badger 2,406]

On 11/12/2020 at 22:37, Mr.Carrow said:

Btw I believe the trick used in the (extremely clever) BLM name is called the Motte and Bailey tactic. You construct a lovely progressive sounding name and definition which no-one in their right mind can disagree with (Motte), then say and promote all kinds of outrageous and controversial stuff (Bailey). If you get caught out in the Bailey, you retreat to the Motte and accuse those questioning you as being against the wholly pure and progressive values of the Motte.

Feminists do this all the time: get called out for #killallmen, rape culture, "all men are potential rapists" etc then retreat to the "The dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes. If you are questioning feminism you obviously don't believe in that therefore you're an evil misogynist". 

It's fundamentally authoritarian: agree with everything we say or you will be attacked and shamed as a terrible person.

Mr Carrow revealing posted this earlier - it is a good illustration of the tactics used by those that support the booing of ant-racist gestures.

They suggest innocently that all they want is individual liberty (the Motte) whilst then going around accusing those who oppose the booing of taking the knee of all sorts. For example,

Iwan's Big Toe:

 

13 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

German + white + not taking the knee = Fascist

2 + 2 + 2 = 71

However, nobody had accused Zimmermann of being a fascist (except by implication him). This is an example of what Mr C describes as "then say and promote all kinds of outrageous and controversial stuff (Bailey)" - the Bailey part.

Another example, this time Mr C himself:

21 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm looking for one of you highly educated and morally enlightened folk to come round to teach them about how they are unfairly advantaged by their "something privilege" within our, errrrr "racist white supremacy".

Of course the only person to refer to the "racist white supremacy" was Mr Carrow himself: the Bailey again.

Mr Carrow has, unwittingly, explained one of the tactics that he and his fellow travellers use. Others, of course, rely on simple personal abuse and false allegations which several of us have encountered at their hands in the last couple of days for daring to suggest that booing anti-racist gestures is not a good thing.

 

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

10 minutes ago, Badger said:

As predicted none of those that supported the booing of an anti-racist stance have made any attempt to deal with this excellent and detailed post by Kirku.

Now this could be because it doesn't "suit their agenda" and makes their arguments look puerile or alternatively it could (if we are being very charitable) be because they have forgotten.

I have posted this to remind them - let's see if they respond this time - if they don't, I think that we know why.

Because the above statistics do not prove causation. Everybody knows that racism still exists but given that there are widely differing statistics amongst different ethnic groups (even among different black demographics) to lump it all in the "racism" box is not just simplistic and reductive, but self-evidently wrong. Again, Trevor Phillips has been through all this....but obviously he's a racist.

Men are involved in more car accidents than women, which proves that men are discriminated against in a misandrist transport system. Anybody disagreeing with this statement is a misandrist bigot! I demand action!

[Mr.Carrow 376]

This from our furry friend on the other thread "You might not like it, but if they believe that the system discriminates against them, those that are not prepared to reform the system to remove discrimination are complicit in supporting the racism that it sustains. ".

In other words "I believe in an unproven theory based on making the worst possible assumptions about extremely complex statistics showing wildly differing outcomes among different ethnic groups. And if you don't 100% agree with me, you're an evil racist". Don't fall off that white horse Badger 😉

[Badger 2,406]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Because the above statistics do not prove causation. Everybody knows that racism still exists but given that there are widely differing statistics amongst different ethnic groups (even among different black demographics) to lump it all in the "racism" box is not just simplistic and reductive, but self-evidently wrong. Again, Trevor Phillips has been through all this....but obviously he's a racist.

Men are involved in more car accidents than women, which proves that men are discriminated against in a misandrist transport system. Anybody disagreeing with this statement is a misandrist bigot! I demand action!

This is another good example of how those that oppose anti-racist gestures try to deflect from the real arguments.

Whilst it is true that individual statistics do not prove causation, a wide array of statistics which suggest the same thing give a strong indication of a causal connection. The way to handle statistics is not to just ignore them but to investigate whether there seems to be a trend in the statistics (which in Kirku's statistics there seems to be) and whether there are alternative explanations for the statistics. Using your example, with regards male driving, for example, alternative hypotheses are quite easy to investigate - do men drive more often than women - would this account for the difference? Is there any known difference of the times when men drive - are these more dangerous? Personally, I would wish to whether men drive in different ways amongst a number of other things before reaching concluding that it is a misandrist transport system - if that scientific approach makes me a "misandrist bigot" in your eyes, it is just the latest in a line of slurs. Perhaps like me, you might identify alternative explanations for the statistics that Kirku has given, which might lead to an alternative conclusion - please do so.

Without a thorough empirical approach to statistics it is easy to make mistakes, however to just ignore them altogether as you seem to suggest, challenges much of the knowledge base that we have evolved. It is I suggest, simply an attempt to deny truth.

[The Real Buh 3,444]

So, which one of you pasty, pencil necked failed art students is going to call man mountain Christoph Zimmerman a racist? 

[paul moy 235]

2 hours ago, daly said:

Just watched 4 hours of football on BBC YouTube etc so probably did not explain myself accordingly  

My point was that the sheep are those who take the knee irrespective of their true  feelings 

Bah Bah Bah

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say they are sheep, just that they are afraid to put their head above the parapet for pretty obvious reasons.  Subjects of social coercion more like and fearful of being unfairly labelled as racists. 

 

[Badger 2,406]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

This from our furry friend on the other thread "You might not like it, but if they believe that the system discriminates against them, those that are not prepared to reform the system to remove discrimination are complicit in supporting the racism that it sustains. ".

In other words "I believe in an unproven theory based on making the worst possible assumptions about extremely complex statistics showing wildly differing outcomes among different ethnic groups. And if you don't 100% agree with me, you're an evil racist". Don't fall off that white horse Badger 😉

Once again an example of the tactics that you use as you become more and more desperate. 

1. The theory is not unproven - there is an overwhelming body of evidence that demonstrates it is true. But you are long on assertion and deny evidence.

2. You suggest that I have some desire for 100% agreement, which of course, you can't and won't substantiate.

3. You say things that are far removed from what I have said: you simply make it up.

4. Do you even disagree with the statement of mine that you selectively quote? If poorer black and other minorities believe that the system discriminates against them and someone refuses to support reforming this system which they believe is the cause, do you not think that they might think that you are complicit? If you disagree with the logic of this - please explain why - please don't invent other points, as you normally do - just address the issue at hand.

[Badger 2,406]

8 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

So, which one of you pasty, pencil necked failed art students is going to call man mountain Christoph Zimmerman a racist? 

I don't think anybody has suggested that. As far as I can see he is not booing the others that are taking the knee. We would not have been having this discussing if the Millwall fans had done the same.

[The Real Buh 3,444]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

I don't think anybody has suggested that. As far as I can see he is not booing the others that are taking the knee. We would not have been having this discussing if the Millwall fans had done the same.

Nicely dodged, like you dodged a proper degree.

[Badger 2,406]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

Nicely dodged, like you dodged a proper degree.

Why is this dodging the issue? Nobody would have been discussing the issue if the Millwall fans had simply stood silently. Other people have not taken the knee and I'm not aware of anyone on here saying that they were racist - Les Ferdinand, for example.

Booing the gesture is quite a different category altogether.

[The Real Buh 3,444]

On 13/12/2020 at 12:24, Badger said:

Why is this dodging the issue? Nobody would have been discussing the issue if the Millwall fans had simply stood silently. Other people have not taken the knee and I'm not aware of anyone on here saying that they were racist - Les Ferdinand, for example.

Booing the gesture is quite a different category altogether.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by The Real Buh

[paul moy 235]

1 hour ago, Move Klose said:

A brave man indeed.....

[kirku 1,334]

2 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Loads of articles such as this around:

https://medium.com/@paulcabellon/brown-privilege-12eab13a4899

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

This is another good example of how those that oppose anti-racist gestures try to deflect from the real arguments.

Whilst it is true that individual statistics do not prove causation, a wide array of statistics which suggest the same thing give a strong indication of a causal connection. The way to handle statistics is not to just ignore them but to investigate whether there seems to be a trend in the statistics (which in Kirku's statistics there seems to be) and whether there are alternative explanations for the statistics. Using your example, with regards male driving, for example, alternative hypotheses are quite easy to investigate - do men drive more often than women - would this account for the difference? Is there any known difference of the times when men drive - are these more dangerous? Personally, I would wish to whether men drive in different ways amongst a number of other things before reaching concluding that it is a misandrist transport system - if that scientific approach makes me a "misandrist bigot" in your eyes, it is just the latest in a line of slurs. Perhaps like me, you might identify alternative explanations for the statistics that Kirku has given, which might lead to an alternative conclusion - please do so.

Without a thorough empirical approach to statistics it is easy to make mistakes, however to just ignore them altogether as you seem to suggest, challenges much of the knowledge base that we have evolved. It is I suggest, simply an attempt to deny truth.

I haven't opposed anti-racism gestures. I couldn't give a monkeys what people do with 20 seconds of their time and I don't agree with people booing them for expressing whatever they want to express. My focus has been on the philosophy behind BLM and the narrative heist being attempted by the identity politics movement.

"Whilst it is true that individual statistics do not prove causation". But still you call anybody who questions what lies behind those statistics a racist (which you expressly did in the quote I provided from the other thread). If you want to make such an outrageous claim it is incumbent on YOU to prove it and to explain why other ethnic groups have wildly varying statistics including many that are very positive. In that context the "it's all racism" claim doesn't make much sense does it?

Your response to my "misandrist transport" point is largely reliant on talking about cultural differences between men and women, something you don't seem to want to acknowledge between different ethnic groups. Why not? Trevor Phillips has stated that people "prefer segregation". If this is true then differing outcomes between different groups is inevitable unless you want to claim that, say, British Carribbean culture is exactly the same as British Pakistani?

My mother used to foster seven Bangladeshi kids to ease the burden on a struggling single mother. They moved to Birmingham largely because there were few Bangladeshis in Norwich. A few months later they had to leave Birmingham in a rush under police protection because some of the kids had got involved in a violent feud between local Bangladeshi's and people from the Angolan community. I vacated my house at short notice and moved back in with my parents at the age of 30 so these kids wouldn't be homeless. Big cultural differences between ethnic groups are a fact. How you parse how much of differing outcomes is down to that, or racism, is immensely difficult- maybe impossible.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Mr.Carrow

[Mr Angry 1,563]

“Marxists to the left of me, racists to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you”. 😳