Blind Optimism?

[S_81 861]

14 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

'We have a worse starting no 9 than many years'

 

Worse than Drmic? Or Srebny? Although I did always have a soft spot for Srebny..

Sargeant is no peak Pukki, is no Holt; no Earnshaw, no Ashton, no Sutton, no Robins etc etc. 

Worse than Drmic or Srebny? Certainly not. But he’s nowhere near the level we’ve had during some seasons. That was my point. 

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, mannings bandy legs said:

The CDM issue will not go away. Its ridiculous that it has'nt been addressed.and we will continue to concede goals because of it.

Despite it being received wisdom we don't need a CDM, and while we are at it we don't need a No 10 either. In fact playing both or either would weaken the team as it has been set up to play next season. Next season is all about a high press and overloads in wide areas. All systems come with weaknesses - we may well get caught on the transition at times or overloaded centrally but we look more robust than we have done for many a season. Oh, and harder to beat.

Edited August 1, 2023 by BigFish
season probably better than system

[jaberry2 556]

The fact is Pukki was pretty poor last season, so we arent really missing too much on that front. Sargeant and Barnes should offer enough of a goal threat, albeit a 3rd choice is needed is we are to push. Idah isnt that person for me.

[canarybubbles 1,944]

After pre-season I'm far more optimistic about results this season than I was a month ago, but I'm not expecting to enjoy the football. Our creativity is basically Sara, and without him we have looked turgid once we faced someone more demanding than Kings Lynn. Other than Sara, who is there? Núñez, but he is very erratic and gives the ball away a lot. Rowe possibly if he develops quickly and fulfils his promise, but I see him as more of a hard-working dribbler than someone who has the vision needed in a true creator.

We look a team of willing workhorses who at least seem to know what they're doing when they press, so I expect us to be a lot more solid and I think we'll get more set-piece goals as well. And in football there are no points for artistic merit, I know, I know.

So, on a personal level, I'll just have to grin and bear it and put the past behind me, I guess, and accept this is where my club is now.

[Robert N. LiM 4,493]

As General Melchett says, "If all else fails a pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face will see us through"

More seriously, I'm with those who are (mindlessly) optimistic. Why be anything else? That's why football has seasons, surely? A fresh start, a pristine pitch, a new kit, new signings, everyone starting on 0 points. If you can't dream now, when can you?

Yes, I am still euphoric about England coming back to draw the Ashes series 2-2. Sue me.

[Channon’s Windmill 334]

People are saying we look more solid at the back and are less likely to concede as many, I am not so sure. On Saturday we still looked to have that annoying habit of one too many passes between defenders in the box, followed by a miss-weighted back pass to Gunn (or Gunn delaying his pass too long). A sharper strike force, who were closer to their season start, would have scored at least one on Saturday. For me we look like a mid-table team, still hoping for a few additions if we can move on those we a flaunting for sale. 

[S_81 861]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

As General Melchett says, "If all else fails a pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face will see us through"

More seriously, I'm with those who are (mindlessly) optimistic. Why be anything else? That's why football has seasons, surely? A fresh start, a pristine pitch, a new kit, new signings, everyone starting on 0 points. If you can't dream now, when can you?

Yes, I am still euphoric about England coming back to draw the Ashes series 2-2. Sue me.

It’s definitely possible to be hopeful yet not optimistic. That sums up my mindset about the club right now. I’ll cheer them on and hope they do better than I expect. But I’m not optimistic about how things will turn out. I may feel more galvanised about it all if results go our way, or when the post-Webber chapter starts. Perhaps. 

[S_81 861]

2 minutes ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

People are saying we look more solid at the back and are less likely to concede as many, I am not so sure. On Saturday we still looked to have that annoying habit of one too many passes between defenders in the box, followed by a miss-weighted back pass to Gunn (or Gunn delaying his pass too long). A sharper strike force, who were closer to their season start, would have scored at least one on Saturday. For me we look like a mid-table team, still hoping for a few additions if we can move on those we a flaunting for sale. 

Yeah I think poor left backs and a Wagner desire to play Gibson, plus defensive cover coming from mid in the form of Kenny, don’t bode well. And Gunn isn’t great with the ball at his feet either. 

[TheGunnShow 6,006]

2 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

I think Rowe will become a valuable asset this season when fully match fit. Onel I dont have that much time other than a super sub, but even then he still lacks end product. Idah im unconvinced by and hasnt really added anything to change my mind in pre season. We need to figure out what Nunez's best position and stick to it.

Number 10/attacking midfield. He's not a deep-lying playmaker as he's too lightweight.

[Gordon Bennett 789]

3 hours ago, S_81 said:

Hope you’re right but I fear it is indeed blind optimism. As it was for many fans last summer.
 

Ben Gibson is a poor defender, Kenny McClean watches the game pass him by. No CDM. We are really weak at left back. Our left wing options are the same failed ones as in recent seasons (unless Sainz comes good after injury). We have a worse starting no9 than many years of our history. We have no creative no10. Our striking options off the bench are even weaker. Our manager won 1 in the last 11 with many of the same side. 
 

Really can’t see us challenging seriously for top 6. 
 

But I really do hope it somehow clicks. 

If it does click and we have a good season will you give credit to the club for their recruitment and playing style, or will you consider it luck because 'somehow it clicked'?

[canarybubbles 1,944]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

If it does click and we have a good season will you give credit to the club for their recruitment and playing style, or will you consider it luck because 'somehow it clicked'?

I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'll answer it anyway. Yes, I would give credit to the club for the move to a hard-pressing style and the mouth-and-muscle recruitment (and selling players simply because they are not physically built in the way the management wants) because successful results are what virtually all supporters are looking for. It doesn't mean I'd enjoy the football. 

 

[S_81 861]

9 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

If it does click and we have a good season will you give credit to the club for their recruitment and playing style, or will you consider it luck because 'somehow it clicked'?

I’ll give credit to Webber for the players he signed coming good and I’ll give credit to Wagner for coaching those players into a successful team. 

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'll answer it anyway. Yes, I would give credit to the club for the move to a hard-pressing style and the mouth-and-muscle recruitment (and selling players simply because they are not physically built in the way the management wants) because successful results are what virtually all supporters are looking for. It doesn't mean I'd enjoy the football.

Now there is the $64,000 question. In many ways this system is much more suitable for a club in our position and if we squeaked into the EPL far easier to adapt to what we would require to stay up. The price of this is fewer goals and less pretty football than Farkeball. Ultimately you have a choice, it looks like the club have made theirs.

Edited August 1, 2023 by BigFish

[Fuzzar 1,703]

Our starting XI looks competitive for this division.

If we're reasonably lucky with injuries and can build momentum from the outset, I'm hopeful of a top six finish. 

[shefcanary 2,460]

My thoughts:

• A good set of "tests" this close season makes me confident the squad are now better prepared to adopt Wagner's "gegenpress" strategy. We will be tough to beat, and on quite a few occasions we will "bully" teams into defeat. It won't be easy on the eye, but expect a lot of narrow low scoring wins.
• We do have a bit of depth; one thing I expect is that some of the players whose ability was questioned in the past are now another year older; expect a couple of unexpected gems to emerge (Rowe I believe will take the wing role away from Argos for instance, Gibbs and Fisher will shine when they come on but won't be regular starters which might frustrate a few);
• Creativity is in relatively short supply; this will only be a problem against equally well organised sides. In those matches Sara will have to turn up and play to his billing. His set pieces are going to be critical, if he can link well with Duffy the latter will be a 10 goal man.
• There is still a chance that we will loan in a young (probably too young) creative midfielder before the end of the window. I just hope the terms of that players engagement are sensible and don't impose a play and save money mentality a la Gilmour.
• I have a feeling we will see Placheta settle into that left back position ahead of Giannoulis and McCallum. The latter will increasingly be used as a centre back resource. 
• Up front, I don't see any of our forwards being a 20 goal man, but expect Sarge to be late teens, Barnes early teens.
• This concern about Gunn being too slow with his passing at the back are over stated. All teams set up this way, and Gunn has already shown he is a better distributor than Krul. I expect those concerns to dissipate, apart from when it is a tight 1-0 lead we are defending (well actually that could be nearly every game! 🙂 ).
• Surely this season we will have more luck with injuries than the last six or seven years. This was one of the positives Wagner enjoyed at 'Uddersfield in their promotion season.

So, a lot to be optimistic about. But not enough to achieve automatic promotion for me, sneaking into the play-offs and winning that could happen. Wagner has experienced that.

Edited August 1, 2023 by shefcanary
Duffy is going to be a key goal scorer

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

First XI plus about 3 others is ok....if you look at our bench as to who could impact a game it looks weak

[norfolkngood 1,088]

I Have not seen any Pre season but for me a weak point for us was the soft centre midfield last season ,

Not going forward i think that suits Mclean and Sara i might add but Defensively ,

Now Wagner has set up with two CM and No CDM in a 442 or a 4411 with barnes deeper 

i think that might be a big mistake , 

i asked Hog who watched them and he said Barnes spotted danger and dropped in and the two CM's were not pulled all over the pitch and it worked  , So hopefully that is the right tactic 

Wagner seems to want all round midfielders in there which is fine but 2 instead of 3 ? ,

but i think in this league a good CDM sitting at the base of Midfield is all you need to let the other two Mclean and Sara push forward ,

it depends if barnes has the legs to do a No 10 and cover if CM is caught out ,

of course we have more going forward in a 442 /4411 and defence is stronger more solid so until i see it that is my doubt ,

Also Wagner for me has so much to prove after showing so little last season 

 

 

[rock bus 854]

For me this season is wholly dependent on Wagner building some confidence in the team. I think we have wisely brought in players with a bit more steel about them and this should help to stop us collapsing when things go against us. Unlike others, I think players like Gibson, McLean, Sargent etc are more than capable of playing in a promotion winning team but confidence is key to all of them. This means we need a good start which worryingly isn't something we normally do.

In terms of the 'magic' I think this could come from one of the youngsters ending up being a surprise star of the season - Rowe or Gibbs or Fisher are my main hopes.

Like most other fans I'd still like a tough tackling midfielder at least in the squad.

The other key thing we need to do is get rid of the players who wont be in the squad ASAP (eg Rashica, Aarons, Omo (maybe), Tzolis (probably). I don't want us to waste a month having players who don't want to be here and not having the funds to make a couple of key signings that would hugely improve our chances of promotion (which I expect will have to be via play offs).

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

Nice to see a good amount of balanced arguments. I don't see anyone in great numbers mopeing or been miserablists but stating the obvious really.

Webber has given Wagner a solid squad which presumably he has had input to. We have experience to back up youthful exuberance and hopefully a bit of drive and backbone.

It's now down to whether Wagner can get a cohesive unit that can win football matches. Especially at home!

[TIL 1010 4,797]

5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm finding it had to be positive about the prospects for this season, it just feels as if we are on a bit of a downer, after the Smith debacle and then Wagner's bad run at the end of last season. Things can change and anything can happen, but I don't see where the inspiration is going to come from.

 

I think your account has been hacked Lakey.

[canarybubbles 1,944]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

Now there is the $64,000 question. In many ways this system is much more suitable for a club in our position and if we squeaked into the EPL far easier to adapt to what we would require to stay up. The price of this is fewer goals and less pretty football than Farkeball. Ultimately you have a choice, it looks like the club have made theirs.

They have indeed.

For Wagner it's close to the last roll of the dice for his coaching career. Webber's covered his own a*s, of course - the one area where we might legitimately use the word 'genius'. Lots of talk of loyalty. Hmm, so sincere. When someone starts speaking of morality, I start to count my spoons. Similarly, when someone speaks of loyalty, I wait for the knife in the back.

It's going to be an interesting season.

 

[ged in the onion bag 857]

8 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

I looked at our squad on Wikipedia yesterday and we've got better players than we think.

Have we?    I find watching them a better guide than Wikipedia personally.     

There has been a gradual decline in quality for three years now.    We desperately needed quality, brawn and experience and have addressed the latter two in part, but the quality is what gets you results (makes the difference) and we haven't got much quality.    We need a player that can control the tempo of games in the middle of the park.   We don't have that either.    We've needed CDM's for years and we still do.   The left-backs are lightweight, not good enough and if Aarons leaves we only have one right-back.... no doubt we will need to replace but can recruitment be trusted?   

This group may have enough about them to start well and from there, you never know but it does seem that we are relying on experience and short-termism.    If Wagner is going this route to garner confidence, then introduce the youngsters, that's understandable but if he doesn't introduce quite a few new players and particularly develop Gibbs, Rowe and Omo (at the very least) we'll end up wasting this season like we did last year.

 

[Richard Richard 186]

Can't wait for the season to start so we can discuss actual results and performances as opposed to endless speculation and pontificating.

Pretty sure this post - or others extremely similar to it - have appeared pretty much daily since the end of last season (no offence to the OP).

[hertfordyellow 460]

I seriously don't understand why some people renew their season ticket. You are miserable, you aren't looking forward to it, it's costing you a small fortune and it's a big time commitment. Let someone else have a ticket, someone who wants it. You can try a hobby, relax every Saturday, go on day trips. 

It's not support if you stand there all game, silent and miserable. Give up your ticket and let someone else who is enthusiastic have an opportunity.

 

[Mr Angry 1,571]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

I think your account has been hacked Lakey.

You’re right, he didn’t mention how much better it would have been if Farke was still here.

[RobJames 891]

Can we do it ? Yep, absolute certainly. Will we do it, that's another matter?

The unanswered question though is what happened to the free scoring team that notched up wins at Preston, Coventry and Millwall ? Even Blackburn. Compare those performances with Blackpool at home. The same players, as good as. 

It comes down to motivation. As in the often quoted words, "they wanted it more than us". We lost 3 key players in those last few games. Almost no senior players on the pitch, and a number who knew they would not be with us come August. McLean and Gibson are back. Duffy, Barnes and Stacey are not here to see out their retirement. Likewise 'fast chap,',

So far over the friendly games we have looked more solid at the back and have a bit more bite in the middle. Onel has gone from having the skills range of 'Wilf 'adapted for speed' Finney', to a tough tackling ball winner. More intent on feeding others than one dimensional runs down the wing. Plachetta looks to have gone through the same transformation as well. Getting the ball into the box far quicker will show results. As will having Rowe getting in there

Lambert (Culverhouse ?) turned the team around. One that had been relegated and then hammered 1-7 at home to lowly Colchester. The few signings made during that title winning season were not big names or big fees. They were the right ones, and we did it with ease. If the signings are as committed as then we will be top six.  However, there can be no VOO, Norman, Kabak, Armadou or even Hugill.

Coventry away, or Blackpool at home ? We shall see.

 

 

[Sooty57 403]

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm finding it had to be positive about the prospects for this season,…………   We'll see, but I'm not wildly optimistic. 

Well that’s it then. If even Lakey is having doubts it looks like I have spaffed my season ticket money up the wall again 

[RobJames 891]

5 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Have we?    I find watching them a better guide than Wikipedia personally.     

There has been a gradual decline in quality for three years now.    We desperately needed quality, brawn and experience and have addressed the latter two in part, but the quality is what gets you results (makes the difference) and we haven't got much quality.    We need a player that can control the tempo of games in the middle of the park.   We don't have that either.    We've needed CDM's for years and we still do.   The left-backs are lightweight, not good enough and if Aarons leaves we only have one right-back.... no doubt we will need to replace but can recruitment be trusted?   

This group may have enough about them to start well and from there, you never know but it does seem that we are relying on experience and short-termism.    If Wagner is going this route to garner confidence, then introduce the youngsters, that's understandable but if he doesn't introduce quite a few new players and particularly develop Gibbs, Rowe and Omo (at the very least) we'll end up wasting this season like we did last year.

 

Not sure where you are going with that, neither do you I suspect.

Yes it is, and has to be, short-termism.  If we don't go up this season, we are probably facing around £50m less in 2023/4. It is not about 'confidence' it is about winning. We would 'waste this season' if we were to embark on players being in the first team.... because they are young. That does nothing for them or the club. Players do NOT develop in the first team. They are picked when they have developed and are up to the level needed. Hence Gibbs being in the team, and Springett out on loan. Or perhaps we should drop Sgt and play Kamara instead.

That looming possibility of no promotion next  May is not something the club are unaware of. That's why a number of promising youngsters have been signed. Why a number are out on season long loans. Make or break. Fisher is judged to be up o the level needed, so first team squad. That is how it works, you do not use the first team as a 'hatchery'.

[lake district canary 4,545]

1 hour ago, Sooty57 said:

Well that’s it then. If even Lakey is having doubts it looks like I have spaffed my season ticket money up the wall again 

Don't pay any attention to what I think, I'm still pining for the Farke days.....

I expect others are too, but we'll have to get over it and as always, it depends on what happens on the pitch. So far, its not been great, but there are some signs, with Barnes, Fassnacht and others, that something better might emerge, but it's hard to think we will have a promotion winning formula straight from the off. Small steps, I think, with the hope a top six and promotion push by the end of the season. But that is a big hope and not based on any optimism on my part! I need to be convinced by some evidence on the pitch. 

[Fen Canary 866]

11 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'll answer it anyway. Yes, I would give credit to the club for the move to a hard-pressing style and the mouth-and-muscle recruitment (and selling players simply because they are not physically built in the way the management wants) because successful results are what virtually all supporters are looking for. It doesn't mean I'd enjoy the football. 

 

Without a Buendia to unlock the defence there was plenty of matches under Farke I didn’t particularly enjoy watching either though.

Watching the players get stuck in, breaking quickly and being more direct going forward can be much more exciting to watch for me personally than 30 passes around the halfway line going nowhere and giving the opposition a chance to regroup.