Wagner OUT

[The Real Buh 3,432]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Real question is why did we sign sunderlands player of the season and give him good wages and let him sit on the bench watching our clowns in defence?

Root and stem. The problem is root and stem

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Real question is why did we sign sunderlands player of the season and give him good wages and let him sit on the bench watching our clowns in defence?

Here we are a quarter of the way through the season and we have no clue how good Baath is. I can understand we need CB cover but why tie up good wages when we could use Warner for that?

We just seem to be stock piling old duffers who can't run.

[Soldier on 160]

Need a young , hungry and innovative coach, not this washed out dinosaur making the same mistakes match after match .

[BroadstairsR 2,171]

I would have thought it beyond the bounds of possibility to have a manager as bad for Norwich City as was the quite awful Dean Smith.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt that now.

It is quite clear to me that the maestro who seems to have full control of our club nowadays is not really a football man. Hopefully young Knapper will have more knowledge of the game in his little fingernail than Stuart Webber has in his entire (big) head.

What a clueless, uninspiring set-up we have become. 

[hogesar 9,676]

22 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I would have thought it beyond the bounds of possibility to have a manager as bad for Norwich City as was the quite awful Dean Smith.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt that now.

It is quite clear to me that the maestro who seems to have full control of our club nowadays is not really a football man. Hopefully young Knapper will have more knowledge of the game in his little fingernail than Stuart Webber has in his entire (big) head.

What a clueless, uninspiring set-up we have become. 

Had we somehow got 2-0 up against Leeds in the first half under Dean Smith (a likely impossibility, but let's persist) then there's no way he sit's on his hands and sends us out in the same structure second half. We'd all be moaning about a boring second half most likely, but possibly a win at the end of it.

[Canary Jedi 579]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Had we somehow got 2-0 up against Leeds in the first half under Dean Smith (a likely impossibility, but let's persist) then there's no way he sit's on his hands and sends us out in the same structure second half. We'd all be moaning about a boring second half most likely, but possibly a win at the end of it.

It’s true that we were in a false position at half time. Just heard Farke interview where he told his team as much during the break. I knew at half time unless we could do something to limit Leeds’s shooting chances we would need to score at least another goal. 

[Sufyellow 222]

19 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Had we somehow got 2-0 up against Leeds in the first half under Dean Smith (a likely impossibility, but let's persist) then there's no way he sit's on his hands and sends us out in the same structure second half. We'd all be moaning about a boring second half most likely, but possibly a win at the end of it.

Must of been a different Dean Smith to the one I saw at Southampton away who stood with his arms folded and watched us get destroyed for 90 mins 

[hogesar 9,676]

10 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

It’s true that we were in a false position at half time. Just heard Farke interview where he told his team as much during the break. I knew at half time unless we could do something to limit Leeds’s shooting chances we would need to score at least another goal. 

Yeah. We had played well but it was pretty 50/50, we had just taken our chances. 

 

[Grumpy 122]

After that poor show I coudnt be bothered to listen to any radio interviews but the only way that we will get answers to all these questions on team,tactics and substitutions is for the local press to actually 'grow some' and ask,instead of taking the easy option to avoid another Webber press ban.
Put Wagner and Webber on the spot and ask the questions ALL the supporters want the answers to.

[TIL 1010 4,748]

17 hours ago, hogesar said:

Bringing Springett on has to be close to a sackable offence in itself.

 

He must have had incredible stats.

[Unthink road 132]

Now could suit the club and Wagner if they parted ways now. He would leave with the team not far of the playoffs and could also use the injuries as an excuse. He wouldn't have harmed his CV too much. The club would let Knapper free reign. Leave it any longer and I fear it will get nasty. 

[The Bristol Nest 513]

18 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

Now could suit the club and Wagner if they parted ways now. He would leave with the team not far of the playoffs and could also use the injuries as an excuse. He wouldn't have harmed his CV too much. The club would let Knapper free reign. Leave it any longer and I fear it will get nasty. 

It already has got nasty reading this thread. I have not seen one defence of Wagner in 5 pages.  Are we talking about our coach or the the Wagner Group? 

Anyway, I think I can help with what actually happened yesterday.

I arrived home after watching my son play rugby and excitedly switched the game on tv ten seconds before Leeds scored their first goal. I continued to influence the game from afar until the end.

Sorry.

Edited October 22, 2023 by The Bristol Nest
Sorry

[Duncan Edwards 2,237]

13 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Not sure what he can do to influence games? He’s a coach ffs, if things are not right they make tactical changes, any coach knows that ffs(yes, I’ve got a coaching badge) it’s not rocket science either, that’s why you have a coaching team. Stop making excuses for him about the players at his disposal too, there’s clubs with worse squads than ours outperforming us both in the League table and games played recently. 

Always so angry.

And you haven’t addressed anything I’ve suggested might be some mitigation for an inability to positively change games using substitutions, you’ve just said “Coach them!” 

Congratulations on your badge by the way. 

[TheBaldOne66 687]

11 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Always so angry.

And you haven’t addressed anything I’ve suggested might be some mitigation for an inability to positively change games using substitutions, you’ve just said “Coach them!” 

Congratulations on your badge by the way. 

Not angry at all. It’s called commenting on what’s happening, that’s the purpose of a forum after all. 

You however are always so condescending to other people  now I  wonder where that trait comes from?

As for I’ve just said coach them, where did I say that exactly? I didn’t did I? You even put the actual post I wrote up but nowhere does it say just coach them. You just twist things to your own agenda as you always do. 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by TheBaldOne66

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

On 22/10/2023 at 02:29, Duncan Edwards said:

I’m not really sure what Wagner is supposed to do to influence games. We tend to start - due to injuries - with the “best” eleven available. We employ an energetic push tactic on the opposition and understandably they tire. We then have to rely on a bench where categorically any player we bring on is a likely downgrade. That isn’t poor subs, it’s a lack of depth. I don’t know how knackered they were but hooking Hernandez and Idah now looks mental. 
Having said that, the fact Hernandez (great guy by the way) is now a starter demonstrates how things have changed for us in the last few years. Wagner has had it tough in terms of key players lost but has done bigger all to make me think he can plot a way out of the malaise. 

I think his system is flawed. We don’t have the personal to carry out the ‘energetic press.  The system depended on Sargent and Barnes who between them pressed intelligently and effectively from the front. They were excellent at it and worked seamlessly is a pair. 

Idah, Hwang, Gibbs, or whoever else has been tried since the injuries to S&B aren’t able to do it.  Yet Wagner persists with it? It really doesn’t need coaching qualifications to see it isn’t working. We’ve become too predictable, and in transition, we’re easy to play through and shipping goal scoring opportunities at an alarming rate. 

So whilst he has mitigation, any coach worth their salt can change things and adapt. The squad may not be good enough, but he isn’t playing to the players strengths. 

However, is Wagner good to see the season out? I maintain my belief that Smith wasn’t as bad as most make out, and Wagner has positives. But this rinse and repeat cycle of a mid season manager changing has to stop, doesn’t it?

Upon their mid season arrivals, there was definitely a feeling amongst supporters that seeing the season out was a bit of a ‘free hit.’ In reality it’s eroded any credit they had in the bank, and counted against them as soon as the chips are down in their first season proper. 

So, if there is a talented manager Knapper has his eyes on, he’d be wise not to bring him in to face this current situation.

So a slight variance to my question above, is there a better manager than Wagner out there to take us to next summer when Knapper can then implement the changes he wants?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[yellow_belly 226]

Let’s be honest… when Ipswich beat us in December (and we have a new SD)… he will be gone.

A new manager for Christmas and a new start in January. 
 

Alas, this season may be over by then. But we would get thumped every week in PL, so what’s the point under this structure.

Depressing in the short term, but hopefully brighter in the future.

[yellow_belly 226]

I think Wagner knows his days are limited. He looks and sounds like a loser.

[Duncan Edwards 2,237]

2 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Not angry at all. It’s called commenting on what’s happening, that’s the purpose of a forum after all. 

You however are always so condescending to other people  now I  wonder where that trait comes from?

As for I’ve just said coach them, where did I say that exactly? I didn’t did I? You even put the actual post I wrote up but nowhere does it say just coach them. You just twist things to your own agenda as you always do. 

 

Still nothing. No swearing this time though, maybe you are mellowing. Twist things for my own agenda? What does that mean?

Do I have some vested interest in Wagner’s continued employment? No. I honestly have no idea what you’re on about.

Im absolutely no “fan” of his but I do think he’s been unfortunate at the back end of last season and the beginning of this with key injuries. Just trying to be balanced, that’s all. 

[ridgeman 131]

21 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

He must have had incredible stats.

Well that’s what we will be relying on, apparently, with The new Sporting Director.

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

1 hour ago, yellow_belly said:

Let’s be honest… when Ipswich beat us in December (and we have a new SD)… he will be gone.

A new manager for Christmas and a new start in January. 
 

Alas, this season may be over by then. But we would get thumped every week in PL, so what’s the point under this structure.

Depressing in the short term, but hopefully brighter in the future.

Short term pain for long term gain. Clearly the club needs to take a step back and rebuild, the gamble to buy in experience hasn't worked and won't work. Knapper needs to address that.

Wagner is totally inept at changing a game, I'm not sure he is any better than Smith tbh. The players don't look totally at ease with his system of blow yourself out for 60 minutes then I'll take you off. It must be gutting for them.

Good news is Leeds are only 6 pts off the Binners!

[essex canary 496]

23 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Here we are a quarter of the way through the season and we have no clue how good Baath is. I can understand we need CB cover but why tie up good wages when we could use Warner for that?

We just seem to be stock piling old duffers who can't run.

All these old duffers boost the pay bill such that the Webbers can point to it to justify their own household income.

[Duncan Edwards 2,237]

1 hour ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

I think his system is flawed. We don’t have the personal to carry out the ‘energetic press.  The system depended on Sargent and Barnes who between them pressed intelligently and effectively from the front. They were excellent at it and worked seamlessly is a pair. 

Idah, Hwang, Gibbs, or whoever else has been tried since the injuries to S&B aren’t able to do it.  Yet Wagner persists with it? It really doesn’t need coaching qualifications to see it isn’t working. We’ve become too predictable, and in transition, we’re easy to play through and shipping goal scoring opportunities at an alarming rate. 

So whilst he has mitigation, any coach worth their salt can change things and adapt. The squad may not be good enough, but he isn’t playing to the players strengths. 

However, is Wagner good to see the season out? I maintain my belief that Smith wasn’t as bad as most make out, and Wagner has positives. But this rinse and repeat cycle of a mid season manager changing has to stop, doesn’t it?

Upon their mid season arrivals, there was definitely a feeling amongst supporters that seeing the season out was a bit of a ‘free hit.’ In reality it’s eroded any credit they had in the bank, and counted against them as soon as the chips are down in their first season proper. 

So, if there is a talented manager Knapper has his eyes on, he’d be wise not to bring him in to face this current situation.

So a slight variance to my question above, is there a better manager than Wagner out there to take us to next summer when Knapper can then implement the changes he wants?

Sure, results themselves tell us it isn’t working as does the goals against column. Maybe he is stubborn in terms of the style he wants to implement, the only reason I can see for Gibbs being deployed as he is and Springett being utilised ahead of others is perceived work rate? I’m sure somebody will be able to provide evidence to the contrary but Gibbs seems to spend a huge amount of time chasing shadows - I realise he’s being asked to chase down and press and that it is a thankless task but the impression given is that he completes a glorified 10k run and then gets subbed.

I don’t have the answers, we concede too many goals to be a proper challenger and I suspect that Hanley’s return will at least help that in some respects but what we can field defensively is a downgrade on last season and they weren’t good enough.

As for Wagner, I agree that the “Watford model” shouldn’t be adopted and Knapper may have his own ideas so he’ll likely be safe until then. The fans are close though and entertaining, end-to-end games against Leeds and Leicester that end in defeat don’t put any credit in his piggy bank.

I think if we got a sustained run with a fully fit squad, we could challenge top 6 but a couple of key injuries and holes quickly appear, the youngsters will be learning as they go and will/should improve but learning on the job is costly and it won’t take long for the season to be gone and then the revolving door of players starts all over again. 

[Andy G 10]

I am in the Wagner out camp. Not purely on results but on two things, he can control, which cause the results.

The first is fitness, we seem to be lacking it, at one point i'm sure Wagner promised us the "fittest team in the league" - the majority of the players are knackered from 60mins, was a massive difference between the Farke Norwich team who were scoring late goals due to being much fitter and could go for 100 mins+.- we saw this against leeds, they still had legs when out team was dead on their feet.

The second is Mentality, we have gone from being a collective unit to a team that points and moans at each other, when we lost the goal, there was no collective "Ok its happened, lets work to fix this" there were about 6 players shouting at each other blaming one another. When a team has no cohesian and just passes the blame around, it doesn't bode well. I am sure there is a proverb about a house divided and its very true. 

These are two sections where Wagner is in control, but is failing miserably

 

[Newports Canary 8]

On 22/10/2023 at 09:38, Soldier on said:

Need a young , hungry and innovative coach, not this washed out dinosaur making the same mistakes match after match .

This is true, and the other post saying he looks and sounds like a loser is correct. The doubt about Wagner had obviously been increasing every week, but this game was the tipping point for me. 

Something obviously clicked with him at Huddersfield for 2 seasons, before crashing spectacularly but no blame could probably be aimed at him for that. He's failed ever since and it's becoming obvious why. Our players seem to be judged and picked, on how much they run around after the ball, even if it is like a headless chicken. As someone else pointed out, we were promised the fittest team in the league - which seems to be complete b*****ks despite our so called tactics needing it and our team looks completely knackered after an hour, every game.

His substitutions are weird, and pretty much every single game there has been a noticeable drop in performance after he has made them - even in our first game against Hull, we were drawing but all over them, he makes a load of changes and performance wise we suddenly went to s**t. Luckily we did get the winner right at the end. But it has been the vast majority of times that this has happened. He's said himself that we play the way we play and don't adapt depending on individuals within the team, well that's just stubborn and absolutely stupid. No wonder we are dropping like a stone. His so called "tactics" may have worked for a couple of years at Huddersfield, who don't forget had some bloody good players. Could he have done it with the team Huddersfield have now? No chance. 

Springett may come good, but is just not good enough YET, and how Wagner can't see that is mental especially as we have plenty of Wingers. Against Leeds, pace down the left was causing them huge problems, so why remove the only real threat we really had?  If Hernandez had to come off, why not replace him with Placheta? Unless he viewed Springett's defensive contribution as superior which would be bizarre so more than likely true. After all Placheta has been touted and must have had training, as a left back, so you would think he would have been ideal to replace Hernandez in the circumstances regarding both attack and defense. 

The constant nonsense in his post match interviews, "good shift" when we've just been beaten by a team nearer the bottom, "good performance" again the other day after he and we have just been made to look completely ridiculous. Rowe's comments seem correct, criticising "game management", but who's was he actually referring to?

The man's turning into a joke, and very quickly. No one would be happier than me if I can look back at this post and see how wrong I was, after Wagner turns it around and we at least get in the playoffs. It's possible after all with Barnes and Sargent coming back, and apart from the top 2 it is all very close at the top. I just don't see it with him in charge, unfortunately.

I remember seeing, I think on YouTube or somewhere rather than reading it, and back not long after Farke joined us, how Dortmund 2's noticeably improved when Farke took over but also how the style of football was much better. Of course Wagner was having his 2 seasons of success, so it was put in a "Farke even improved what David Wagner had started" kind of way. But below are the stats and it would be obvious who's would be who's, even if the dates had been taken out. 

PWDL

Borussia Dortmund II

1 July 2011

31 October 2015

164

57

47

60

34.8

Borussia Dortmund II

3 November 2015

25 May 2017

56

29

21

6

51.79

[Canario 205]

I'm seriously concerned that we actually have Herr Lipp from League of Gentleman managing us. Whack a pair of glasses on our Dave in the last interview and the transformation is complete.

[Sufyellow 222]

13 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Sure, results themselves tell us it isn’t working as does the goals against column. Maybe he is stubborn in terms of the style he wants to implement, the only reason I can see for Gibbs being deployed as he is and Springett being utilised ahead of others is perceived work rate? I’m sure somebody will be able to provide evidence to the contrary but Gibbs seems to spend a huge amount of time chasing shadows - I realise he’s being asked to chase down and press and that it is a thankless task but the impression given is that he completes a glorified 10k run and then gets subbed.

I don’t have the answers, we concede too many goals to be a proper challenger and I suspect that Hanley’s return will at least help that in some respects but what we can field defensively is a downgrade on last season and they weren’t good enough.

As for Wagner, I agree that the “Watford model” shouldn’t be adopted and Knapper may have his own ideas so he’ll likely be safe until then. The fans are close though and entertaining, end-to-end games against Leeds and Leicester that end in defeat don’t put any credit in his piggy bank.

I think if we got a sustained run with a fully fit squad, we could challenge top 6 but a couple of key injuries and holes quickly appear, the youngsters will be learning as they go and will/should improve but learning on the job is costly and it won’t take long for the season to be gone and then the revolving door of players starts all over again. 

It looked as though springett has a ball phobia,  I didn't see him anywhere near it except for winning one foul. 

[Midlands Yellow 3,986]

17 minutes ago, Canario said:

I'm seriously concerned that we actually have Herr Lipp from League of Gentleman managing us. Whack a pair of glasses on our Dave in the last interview and the transformation is complete.

 

[Sufyellow 222]

On 22/10/2023 at 04:21, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Bring Forshaw on for Gibbs at half time and we dont lose that game.....thats what he could have done

This is another result on Wagner....yet again

I don't think you can say that , I don't think Forshaw will offer our defence much more protection.  When we stop attacking we are sitting ducks. We can't defend under pressure.  

[Highland Canary 76]

Just like at FCR against Boro I don’t anyone in the crowd thought we’d win. There was resignation in the crowd today at Sunderland and a few Wagner out chants at the end. Can’t see us winning another game under his leadership - the players look completely lost. Change is needed and preferably before the inevitable December 16 humiliation. At least the bottom three look particularly weak and, hopefully, the new manager bounce should see us retain our tier two status.

[S_81 797]

3 minutes ago, Highland Canary said:

Just like at FCR against Boro I don’t anyone in the crowd thought we’d win. There was resignation in the crowd today at Sunderland and a few Wagner out chants at the end. Can’t see us winning another game under his leadership - the players look completely lost. Change is needed and preferably before the inevitable December 16 humiliation. At least the bottom three look particularly weak and, hopefully, the new manager bounce should see us retain our tier two status.

I don’t know how it’s only a few chants. Our fans are far too passive.