Observations from the shambles

[ged in the onion bag 862]

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

17 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

As someone who likes to sing and chant, even in my seventies, I have been critical of City fans for being a bit reserved in the past. But Saturday was absolutely brilliant. Its the noisiest and most continuous I have heard the away fans. A real credit to the club. And the humour was good.

[Peregrine Shorts 347]

totally agree with the analysis of the tactics.....the in game management was appalling from Wagner

[Google Bot 3,387]

It's the predictability that is most concerning for me, and it's not just down to our build-up/attacking play, but also the fact that we give possession away so cheaply.

Lack of movement without Barnes and Sarge has become increasingly evident too.

[raunds canary 218]

What a brilliant post. So many of your points are spot on.

It does seem we are going backwards and looks similar to when we brought hartson, siberski and others in. If we did end up getting promoted which is extremely unlikely this season even before Saturdays result I can't think of a single player who would hold their own in the premier league. 

Maybe Wagner should go unchanged at fulham and give the shirkers from Saturday a chance to put in a performance but that won't happen. 

I think hwang will be up there with the Alan gows and Cody McDonalds of this world 

[Petriix 2,857]

I think it's fair to say the first few games were a false dawn and the fears that many of us had are coming to fruition: lack of creativity and technical ability in the final third and a lack of positional discipline and awareness in the defensive third. 

Obviously injuries haven't helped but the squad is paper-thin. If you're playing two strikers in your first choice formation then you need four or five in the squad who can compete for places. Same with the attacking midfielders yet we are pretty short of attacking threat from the bench. Without Sargent we're toothless.

Sadly the squad seems to get worse with every transfer window. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,315]

Yeah agree with lots of the OP.

RE the experience signings, I think Duffy and Barnes made logical sense at the time. If Duffy is playing next to Andy O, then great, a good mix. But to sign him to play next to an ageing slow centre half like Gibson is just so far removed from what this club was supposed to be doing. Barnes, an ideal mentor for Sargent, and a successful signing. 

As for Forshaw and Batth? Both scream of panic signings. Forshaw has a terrible injury record and for me, Batth is basically what we signed Duffy for, isn't he? But we left ourselves short last minute. 

We have to accept injuries have not helped. But with a fully fit squad, I want to see the likes of Gibbs and Nunez played and Wagner to show how he can get the best out of our younger talent. Gibbs and Nunez will both stagnate if they're thrust into it this year. They are more than ready. I'm sick of seeing Mclean week in, week out. He definitely has a role to play, but should never be the first name on the team sheet! And to waste Nunez's talents to see Forshaw play will be criminal. 

We signed no-one in the last window ready to improve the first 11, who also carries future re-sale value. Very poor.  

Edited September 26, 2023 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[Capt. Pants 4,325]

Wagner had a whole summer and pre season yet here we are with the same old fragility coming back.

Yes we have injuries but we don't have an underlying style that the players seem to understand and get behind. Or if we did it has quickly disappeared.

If we played a chess match against Leicester it was pin the tail on the donkey against Plymouth.

 

[TIL 1010 4,826]

2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

Post of the week without a shadow of a doubt.

[dylanisabaddog 5,060]

39 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Wagner had a whole summer and pre season yet here we are with the same old fragility coming back.

Yes we have injuries but we don't have an underlying style that the players seem to understand and get behind. Or if we did it has quickly disappeared.

If we played a chess match against Leicester it was pin the tail on the donkey against Plymouth.

 

It's very strange. Last season he started well and we were flying then it fell apart very quickly. The same has happened now. I think it's because the players just don't believe they can win without Barnes and Sargent. In my opinion they're right. 

[shefcanary 2,503]

56 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

As for Forshaw ...    ?

Has he come in to mentor Kenny - stop him from wandering for once?

Seriously though, I'm all behind your statement that Kenny should not be first on the team sheet, I'd like to see a combination of Forshaw & Gibbs with Sara pushed further forward.

In my view, Saturday was the time for Kenny to turn up and prove he can be relied on as both midfield enforcer and morale boosting captain. He failed his audition on those big style; now I'm with Kompany and feel we should be building better and giving experience to one of our younger players. To repeat the issues of the past is not only madness, but will hold the club back for years.

[yellowrider120 797]

1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Post of the week without a shadow of a doubt.

Post of many, many months in fact. One of the very best. Wagner has been shown (not just at Plymouth but a number of games last season) that he simply does not have either the ability or courage to make the necessary changes when they need to be made. We simply play too many players high up the pitch and leave the midfield totally exposed. Yet again a poor appointment by Webber who simply noted that he was available and made the call. I honestly refuse to believe that any other candidates were seriously considered. I should have followed my instincts and shovelled a hell of a lot of cash on at 18/1! Instead I wimped out and settled for £20! 

[pete 321]

OP hits nail on head, sirprised he even considered a promotion push was even a remote possibility with this shower.  Who are not going to improve with Wagner, no idea how to make the team difficult to beat.  If you cannot win, which is inevitable with our current strike force, try not to lose.  6 at lowly Plymouth gives little confidence of reults against better teams which inclode Birmingham we shall see but defeat deffo on the cards.

[nutty nigel 7,660]

Post of the millennium. We won't win another game. 

[ridgeman 135]

7 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

An excellent post that mirrors a lot of what others are thinking. Who is responsible for this mess our Sporting Director didn’t he assure us that any change of head coach would be seamless because of the role of SD, utter nonsense. His recruitment with the exception of a few hasn’t improved the playing side of the club and the academy production looks the weakest it has been for several years. He has improved the structure of Colney and we will soon have a swimming pool (like the one we had under Chase which was too expensive to run when we dropped out of the top tier have we not learnt).

[mannings bandy legs 401]

7 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

One of the best,most accurate, posts on here,ever. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

Sacrilege to criticise Caprain Marvel McLean....

[Worthy Nigelton 1,088]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Sacrilege to criticise Caprain Marvel McLean....

Yep. For those that love him, when we're doing well it's all because he's great and a big middle finger to those that don't rate him.

Equally when we don't do well, the same people will tell you that you can't single him out, he's not responsible at all and did you see him driving us on in that good patch?

For some on here he literally can't lose. It's not his fault when he's crap and we lose. It's completely down to him when he's average and we win. Then the line gets trotted out that "three managers have picked him". Yeah they might have, but Andy Hughes made over 500 career appearances and he was utter s**t.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Worthy Nigelton

[daly 516]

10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

 

10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Even the Argyle fans couldn't believe how good our away support was; knowing a few, that's the best they've ever seen.    

We started the game well.   There you go, some positives.  

Apparently, this team needed experience and toughening up.    Well, there was none evident based on that collapse.    But this wasn't necessarily about the lack of speed in our central defenders or the missing forwards.    There was a massive flaw in this formation and the manager’s ability to address it in the game.   

After a very positive first 10 minutes, the play became predictable moving the ball from side to side and progressing our full backs up the pitch.   It became easy for Argyle to defend, they just shifted across, we were too slow at moving the ball and openings were scarce.     Both Rowe and Fassnacht were forced to move inside into condensed areas where there was no space (usually close to Hwang in the hole), we couldn’t find them, they all became redundant in the game but they were committed forward.    They were neither midfielders nor forwards, the only width was through the fullbacks who had no cover.   

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

So at 2-0 we continued the predictable possession football from side to side, we had no penetration.     After 35 minutes, it was obvious we were vulnerable.     At that point we needed change.   Wagner had to take some action, he didn’t, we just carried on leaving ourselves exposed without creating anything going forward.   We carried on with 3 redundant players and left ourselves exposed.    Wagner isn’t very good.

So at 4-0, the players trapse off looking very sheepish, the brilliant fans pause the singing and rightly boo.    Wagner takes a few minutes to have a think before walking down the touchline.   These half-time changes that followed should have occurred after 35 minutes.    This is not in hindsight, I said it to my wife well before the second goal.   If I could see it, Wagner should be able to!

Second half we were better for two reasons, Argyle were 4-0 up and didn't need to commit players forward and we decided to play more direct passes over their defensive line to Idah or Sara in behind.    We still left ourselves very open to the counter attack which in my view was staggering incompetence by the manager and cost us the 5^th and 6^th goals.

If we’re going to play with a 4-2-3-1 formation, then two of the three forwards have to provide the width and be given the ball early, ideally with some space, then allow the fullback to overlap or under lap as necessary.   We can't have our full backs being our prime defenders and attackers.   

What we don’t seem to have are any players (except Hernandez) prepared to commit a defender and dribble beyond them, nor did we have much in the way of overlapping as another way about this process.   Some might not like this, but Bali Mumba (in the 3) commits defenders and to be fair to him he didn't defend badly either.   £1m, our club really has lost its way.   To back that fact up, absolutely no pace at the back…. Andrew Omobamidele!  

Individually, Gunn had a mixed game, two great saves but his positioning was awful.    The centre halves whilst exposed on many occasions had far too many moments to forget.    As for Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang, they were pretty much anonymous but I am still trying to work out if that was entirely Wagner’s fault or a bit of both.    Never been a fan of Placheta but fair play to him he came on and had a good go.   As for Adam, he still looks low on confidence and desperately needs this run of games but I'm not sure the team is set up to help him.

A team needs a mix, it needs experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality.   A clubs philosophy should be set to provide all of these.   Modern football pretty much demands holding central midfielders.   How we missed one of those on Saturday.    

… and where was our captain Kenny on Saturday?    There is a reason he's been performing better of recent times.    He has dropped deeper and by doing so has lots more time on the ball, time to control the ball, time to pick a pass.   He's not the same player when he plays in close combat.  He's in a holding midfielder position but he's not a holding midfielder and doesn’t naturally smell danger.   For me, he will always be an average Championship player, yet we give him an extended contract when really ambition demands better…. If there is no ambition at the club, then fair enough.     

Our recruitment this summer serves absolutely no purpose if this club has ambitions to get promoted.    One, two, even three older heads is fine if they are used sparingly to help the development of our young and inexperienced players, but I don’t see that happening so far.   Barnes, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, McLean and Forshaw certainly aren’t players that can play in the EPL (none are dynamic either), but if they are the mainstay of the team, then how does a club like Norwich replace them on promotion?    Filling the team with them at the expense of developing our younger players is such short term thinking and against the original philosophy which Farke made work much better than this.    We developed hardly any talent last year in the desperate attempt (even expectation) for promotion… we're on target to fail in that area again this year.

So, does anyone have an idea of what the club's philosophy is anymore?   What are they trying to do?   Is it to achieve promotion?   If so, Why?     This weekend and results so far further evidenced the widening chasm between the Championship and the EPL.   

It will be interesting to see if Wagner is good enough, Saturday's result will probably ensure that we lose our place in the cup competition at Fulham but next Saturday's set-up will be interesting.   I'm not convinced by him at all.

The club needs to be signing (and keeping) players so that it has that mix of experience, tenacity, athleticism, pace and quality in mind, not signing hackneyed old journeymen.    This last recruitment window was just desperation probably born out of what happened at the end of last season with the injuries.   

I said it last year and its not changed for me, the club has lost its way!     Desperate for promotion, taking ill-informed decisions with promotion in mind, without the tools to achieve it or sustain it.    Consequently, proper considered development for a longer term, sustainable achievement gets ignored. 

It’s a mess, we aren’t getting promoted with this team, if we did, we’d get absolutely smashed week in, week out.    Time for a re-group usually, but when management has lost is way, they don’t have the wherewithal to see what’s evidently ahead of them.    Time for complete change in my view.  

Them fans though, WOW!  

Post of the YEAR

Spot on

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 862]

6 hours ago, pete said:

OP hits nail on head, sirprised he even considered a promotion push was even a remote possibility with this shower.  Who are not going to improve with Wagner, no idea how to make the team difficult to beat.  If you cannot win, which is inevitable with our current strike force, try not to lose.  6 at lowly Plymouth gives little confidence of reults against better teams which inclode Birmingham we shall see but defeat deffo on the cards.

Pete, a promotion push was never even a remote possibility in my mind, it wasn't last season either.   But most think its viable for some completely inexplicable reason and no one has ever answered the question how we become competitive once we get promoted.   

We can win without Barnes and Sargent, neither are that good really!    They are Championship players and have done nothing to prove otherwise.    Sargent doesn't all of a sudden get a decent first touch!    It remains hype that he's our saviour!     The fact is we can't win without an astute, clever manager and that on Saturday was worrying.    To do nothing about the inactivity and non-contribution of 3 players (Rowe, Fassnacht and Hwang) during that first half was diabolical.   To allow both full-backs to bomb forward at will without thought for cover was diabolical.    

I agree though, we need to be difficult to penetrate first and foremost.    We have enough quality to compete at this level, just nowhere near enough to thrive and threaten promotion. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Duncan Edwards 2,274]

Brilliant thread. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

4 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Yep. For those that love him, when we're doing well it's all because he's great and a big middle finger to those that don't rate him.

Equally when we don't do well, the same people will tell you that you can't single him out, he's not responsible at all and did you see him driving us on in that good patch?

For some on here he literally can't lose. It's not his fault when he's crap and we lose. It's completely down to him when he's average and we win. Then the line gets trotted out that "three managers have picked him". Yeah they might have, but Andy Hughes made over 500 career appearances and he was utter s**t.

....believe it or not, I will attempt to defend McLean here.

In our 2 championship winning seasons , he was playing alongside firstly Tettey and then secondly Skipp, who were the players to provide that crucial screen in front of the back 4.

Now he's being asked to perform.that role himself and alone, which he cannot do. It was seen last season , when the disastrous signing of Hayden didnt work, that against better opposition , our midfield would be overrun and so it will prove again this season, without someone else being put in alongside him.

This is why Forshaw should have started with him at Plymouth and hopefully now will from here on

[Dean Coneys boots 1,423]

This summer was about papering over cracks on the cheap when we needed a proper rebuild. A false dawn made some people think the corner was turned. Ageing players tired quickly though and we are back at square one. Plymouth’s young fast team simply ran rings around us - energy levels were totally different between the two teams. Hopefully a blip- but I fear not. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Dean Coneys boots

[ged in the onion bag 862]

4 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

....believe it or not, I will attempt to defend McLean here.

In our 2 championship winning seasons , he was playing alongside firstly Tettey and then secondly Skipp, who were the players to provide that crucial screen in front of the back 4.

Now he's being asked to perform.that role himself and alone, which he cannot do. It was seen last season , when the disastrous signing of Hayden didnt work, that against better opposition , our midfield would be overrun and so it will prove again this season, without someone else being put in alongside him.

This is why Forshaw should have started with him at Plymouth and hopefully now will from here on

The point about McLean is that he’s average without time on the ball, which I think you’re agreeing with,  but we give him another long contract and still harp on about pursuing promotions!     He doesn’t affect games significantly, he doesn’t control tempo and he’s not a holding midfielder.    
 

Consequently, we need to be improving that position if we have ambition.   It seems we’re content with what we have and have been for years now since he continues to be our go to choice!    We’ve needed proper CDMs with this 4-2-3-1 system for 5 years….. Skipp was clear evidence that they are effective.   

Edited September 27, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[dylanisabaddog 5,060]

4 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

....believe it or not, I will attempt to defend McLean here.

In our 2 championship winning seasons , he was playing alongside firstly Tettey and then secondly Skipp, who were the players to provide that crucial screen in front of the back 4.

Now he's being asked to perform.that role himself and alone, which he cannot do. It was seen last season , when the disastrous signing of Hayden didnt work, that against better opposition , our midfield would be overrun and so it will prove again this season, without someone else being put in alongside him.

This is why Forshaw should have started with him at Plymouth and hopefully now will from here on

I'll be very surprised if from now on Wagner doesn't start with McLean and Forshaw as the 2 and push Sara further up the pitch where he probably should be anyway. 

If he doesn't he's a dead man walking 

[Conrad 179]

28 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The point about McLean is that he’s average without time on the ball, which I think you’re agreeing with,  but we give him another long contract and still harp on about pursuing promotions!     He doesn’t affect games significantly, he doesn’t control tempo and he’s not a holding midfielder.    
 

Consequently, we need to be improving that position if we have ambition.   It seems we’re content with what we have and have been for years now since he continues to be our go to choice!    We’ve needed proper CDMs with this 4-2-3-1 system for 5 years….. Skipp was clear evidence that they are effective.   

We need an improvement in all positions, not just McLean. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Conrad

[ged in the onion bag 862]

30 minutes ago, Conrad said:

We need an improvement in all positions, not just McLean. 

I know but I originally mentioned McLean specifically, hence the responses.   A wider point in the original post is where the club is going, where’s the philosophy and how they’ve lost their way in the process.      They can’t put it back on track!   

Edited September 27, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,246]

Very good.

It’s a holding pattern until the takeover - and its extended finance - becomes operationally active.

Parma 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The point about McLean is that he’s average without time on the ball, which I think you’re agreeing with,  but we give him another long contract and still harp on about pursuing promotions!     He doesn’t affect games significantly, he doesn’t control tempo and he’s not a holding midfielder.    
 

Consequently, we need to be improving that position if we have ambition.   It seems we’re content with what we have and have been for years now since he continues to be our go to choice!    We’ve needed proper CDMs with this 4-2-3-1 system for 5 years….. Skipp was clear evidence that they are effective.   

Your pushing against an open door with me where McLean is concerned , others will point out that he has been part of previous promotion winning sides, I will point out that it was only because he had someone alongside him like Tettey or Skipp

[shefcanary 2,503]

6 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

which he cannot do

So play someone who can! And don't play Kenny at all as Sara is his upgrade! Grrrrr! It's so freaking obvious .... but yet.