Observations from the shambles

[canarybubbles 1,937]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The point about McLean is that he’s average without time on the ball, which I think you’re agreeing with,  but we give him another long contract and still harp on about pursuing promotions!     He doesn’t affect games significantly, he doesn’t control tempo and he’s not a holding midfielder.    
 

Consequently, we need to be improving that position if we have ambition.   It seems we’re content with what we have and have been for years now since he continues to be our go to choice!    We’ve needed proper CDMs with this 4-2-3-1 system for 5 years….. Skipp was clear evidence that they are effective.   

I'm not McLean bashing, but for me the bit I've bolded is very true. When Forshaw came on, we saw how he controlled the tempo from midfield. OK, he had it much easier because Plymouth were happy to let us have the ball unchallenged, but he brought a kind of calmness to the play. I felt Nunez did this well in one of the pre-season friendlies (sorry, forget which) but then wasn't tried again in this role (although I had to admit that I was surprised that Nunez could do it). In the early days of Farke, Leitner was excellent at this until he became a huge sulk for whatever reason.

McLean strikes me as far more of a sort of start-stop player who functions in little bursts of energy. Sara is more stable, but tends to give the ball away quite a lot in his attempts to be creative, and like many people I think he would be better and safer higher up the field. 

We badly need a calming, metronomic influence in midfield and Forshaw looked like he could perhaps be that. For me, it's worth a try at least.

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

21 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

When I played, if one fullback went forward the other one came across to ensure there were three at the back.   That didn't happen.   What we were doing was committing far too many players forward in inefficient positions and when Argyle inevitably turned over possession, there was no cover, they had overloads galore.   

As others have said, this is a great OP, with lots of food for thought.

I'm interested in the quote above, though (and I'll say at the outset I didn't watch the Argyle game).

At the start of the season, reading Ben Lee's analysis in the pinkun, it seemed that we were overloading midfield by having Barnes (and often Sargent) dropping back into central midfield positions. With Rowe and Fassnacht/Onel tucking in, we had a lot of bodies in midfield - and this allowed the full backs to both go forward at the same time, because it was their job to provide the width, and we had the central spaces covered, so Kenny could drop back to make a three at the back.

So I guess my question is - has the absence of Sargent and now Barnes made this tactic impossible to use - their replacements don't have the work-rate, or nous, or whatever? Or have other teams worked us out, or both?

Would be interested in your views on this, and also those of @BigFish, who iirc was very eloquent on Kenny's role and the lack of need for a classic CDM in this system. I wonder if you'd say we do need one now, given how things have developed? (Not having a go at you, btw: I thought you were spot-on earlier in the season).

[shefcanary 2,444]

12 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Would be interested in your views on this,

Hey, Rob, I think this thread had already confirmed your view that without the mobility of Sargent and the nous of Barnes, Wagner's current Plan A fails. Kenny is not a CDM, he needs the midfield box offered by Sargent Barnes to keep him effective.

As many on here have concluded we may have to go back to a 4-2-3-1 to afford the protection our lumbering dreadnoughts at CB and Kenny need. Forshaw alongside Kenny (until we finally replace him) as the double pivot, with Sara (who is the natural upgrade for the position Kenny was bought for) in the middle of the three. Idah, in the absence of anyone else will have to lead the line.

It will then be crucial for Wagner to instil tactical variation into that set up to give us an opportunity to beat teams who will no doubt set up to thwart that 4-2-3-1 (and will have had plenty of practise to do so). Whether that's inverted wingers with overlapping full backs, Farke's fluid front three or something new, Wagner has to come up with more variation, both between matches and more importantly within matches. He has 9 substitutes / 5 in game options to play with FFS, he really has nowhere to hide on this now. We cannot go through another groundhog day season!

[ged in the onion bag 856]

27 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

As others have said, this is a great OP, with lots of food for thought.

I'm interested in the quote above, though (and I'll say at the outset I didn't watch the Argyle game).

At the start of the season, reading Ben Lee's analysis in the pinkun, it seemed that we were overloading midfield by having Barnes (and often Sargent) dropping back into central midfield positions. With Rowe and Fassnacht/Onel tucking in, we had a lot of bodies in midfield - and this allowed the full backs to both go forward at the same time, because it was their job to provide the width, and we had the central spaces covered, so Kenny could drop back to make a three at the back.

So I guess my question is - has the absence of Sargent and now Barnes made this tactic impossible to use - their replacements don't have the work-rate, or nous, or whatever? Or have other teams worked us out, or both?

Would be interested in your views on this, and also those of @BigFish, who iirc was very eloquent on Kenny's role and the lack of need for a classic CDM in this system. I wonder if you'd say we do need one now, given how things have developed? (Not having a go at you, btw: I thought you were spot-on earlier in the season).

I don’t think it’s possible or feasible for any team to rely on full-backs to be the primary source of width from an offensive perspective.    There should always be wingers or specialist wide midfielders (say in a 4-4-2) for that role….. then the full-backs can offer the secondary offensive option providing width by overlapping / underlapping and overload the opponent.   That way if the fullback goes beyond the wide player, the wide player can then offer cover, and we are also getting in behind the opponents defence.
 

What we seem to do is play patient football to the final third by which time our 3 forwards are all packed in a tight space where it’s difficult to get on the ball and they become redundant…. Meanwhile the opponent is now compact and difficult to break through but no one is covering the full backs and we have no CDM to smell the danger and sniff it out, plus no pace at the back.    
 

We’ve needed a CDM from the day we walked out at Anfield in 2019.     We borrowed one for a year, but have failed catastrophically to employ even one and that’s been our main problem, the main reason we’ve never even been close to making the philosophy work.    It’s incompetent on Webbers part!    We should have two at least and similar in the academy coming through.     
 

In answer to your question, about Sargent and Barnes, I would say no, for example, we could still draw 0-0.   Our tactics resulted in us condensing the space by pushing too many players forward at once, and leaving ourselves exposed.

I don’t see how we could blame Idah or even Hwang for us conceding any of the goals.    This last weekend, I think that blame has to fall on Wagner.

Edited September 27, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[ged in the onion bag 856]

34 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

It will then be crucial for Wagner to instil tactical variation into that set up to give us an opportunity to beat teams who will no doubt set up to thwart that 4-2-3-1 (and will have had plenty of practise to do so). Whether that's inverted wingers with overlapping full backs, Farke's fluid front three or something new, Wagner has to come up with more variation, both between matches and more importantly within matches. He has 9 substitutes / 5 in game options to play with FFS, he really has nowhere to hide on this now. We cannot go through another groundhog day season!

I agree with you but don't think he is in Farke's league sadly, hope he proves me wrong.    At present, we could play a 4-2-Buendia-1 and we'd be better than what we have right now so he doesn't have the tools Farke had and that's probably not on him, that's on the clubs recruitment which in my view isn't up to the level required by some distance, not only in the players we sign but the skill sets of players we sign.   

One simple solution that will work better is to widen the pitch using the wide players in the 3 and giving them licence to attack the full-backs, Rowe can do this, I don't think Fassnacht can and he appears to be struggling to settle.   Decisions like bringing in Hwang have to be questioned.    Moving Fassnacht or Sara to the no. 10 role behind Idah would help.   

The fact Gibbs is not being given opportunity to develop in that holding role, (I don't think he is strong enough for the EPL but he would do a better job of dealing with danger than McLean does) worries me.   

We're not getting promoted, we shouldn't even be contemplating that notion with this squad so why not use this season to develop the team, to develop Gibbs and Mumba (as a winger) and Omobamidele (some pace at the back) and Rowe and Springett...... yes I know!!!!!   

I really bought into what the club was doing with Farke but the recruitment is a disaster and has taken us back to pre-Farke already.    The fact that fans on here have been saying how good Sargent and Barnes are is testament to that.    Sargent hasn't done anything to suggest he's more than a reasonable striker at this level, don't forget, his touch is poor, that won't change and Barnes is getting on now, lets face it, if he was that good and believed in himself, he's still be at Burnley.  

We will go through another groundhog season, without question.   The youngsters will be used sparingly as the hackneyed old journeymen take over the asylum!   

Edited September 27, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[hogesar 9,722]

8 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

So play someone who can! And don't play Kenny at all as Sara is his upgrade! Grrrrr! It's so freaking obvious .... but yet.

I'm sorry but up until Saturday you were stating on multiple occasions how Kenny was performing his role well. You even complimented his new "leadership" although I'm sure, all of a sudden, the pointing Saturday was a problem again...

There has to be a little bit of sensible acknowledgement from plenty on here regarding our diabolical performance Saturday vs our general performance levels this season.

Everyone was poor Saturday, but it's pretty clear:

1) Duffy was 10x worse than Gibson, but look across this forum and the demand for Gibson to be dropped is 10x more popular.

2) Mclean and Sara were both terrible but because Sara is a fan favourite, he's being given a free pass. At 2-0 down he has the ball high up the pitch on an attach and passes it centrally into a mass of Plymouth of players, providing them the easiest counter attack they'll ever have. Heaven knows if Mclean had done the same thing.

3) Idah, when playing as a natural 9 rather than Wagner false 9 (second half vs first) - was actually relatively dangerous - playing on the shoulder and working space in between the two CB's.

4) We weren't going to spend money this summer, I think that was fairly obvious. However prior to Saturday, go and have a look at this forum on what pretty much all of you said about:

- Stacey

- Duffy

- Barnes

- Fassnacht

They haven't suddenly become terrible players. Some were overhyped a bit yes, but none of them were / are terrible.

I also don't think this is purely a cost-cutting exercise. I think there was a clear understanding from the club and from the fans (who may well deny it now) that:

- We lacked experience last season, particularly when a couple injuries hit us.

- We lacked physicality in most seasons since Webber / Farke.

- It seems unlikely that Farke's style was going to lead to Premier League survival without investment amounts that we aren't capable of providing (Burnley might be a chance to debunk this but so far they have 1 point).

 

As it is at the moment, we have injuries to:

- Sargent

- Barnes

- Nunez

- Sainz

- Hanley

All 5 of whom would be in our 18 - and most 18's in the league, to be fair. We don't have the squad to cope with that - but other than the Leicester's and Leeds of this league, neither do others.

 

[shefcanary 2,444]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm sorry but up until Saturday you were stating on multiple occasions how Kenny was performing his role well. You even complimented his new "leadership" although I'm sure, all of a sudden, the pointing Saturday was a problem again..

I did. You are right to question me on that. Please don't apologise.

However the fundamentals still hold, which you also have agreed with, that if we are to compete in the EPL (and yes, I know at the moment we are looking at the Chumps, but I always try to look to the future) Kenny has to be upgraded. And that upgrade has arrived in the shape of Sara. What has not happened is the long term solution of a better player to cover the role Kenny has been playing this season. Aside from Saturday, he will put in enough good displays to justify that place in the current team, but he will never be good enough to do it consistently in the EPL - his performance on Saturday underlines this. 

Yes, for a championship side, Kenny can do that role well, but we need to upgrade him. He retains his place in the side because there is no-one else. Or at least no-one that Wagner seems to want to persevere with, probably because the pressure is on immediate promotion and he hasn't got time to bring younger players through.

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Would be interested in your views on this, and also those of @BigFish, who iirc was very eloquent on Kenny's role and the lack of need for a classic CDM in this system. I wonder if you'd say we do need one now, given how things have developed? (Not having a go at you, btw: I thought you were spot-on earlier in the season).

For me Saturday wasn't a systemic failure. We can argue about the contributing factors but too many players under-performed. Gino and Duffy in particular had nightmares and neither Rowe or Fassnacht did their jobs effectively. The result was we lost the game in wide areas and only after did the wheels come off completely when heads went down and the game got stretched.

I am surprised how much we miss Barnes (I actually think Idah more than compensates for the loss of Sarge) as the second false 9. Wagner tried Gibbs in there v Leicester and he got a bit lost/overloaded, Hwang against Plymouth just looked like he didn't know what he was doing. Unsurprising because it requires an element of football intelligence.

It is a bit knee-jerk to call for CDMs and 4231. I haven't seen anyone articulate where the goals would come from and how it makes us stronger at the back. It also ignores that the team plays one formation with the ball and one without. We need better players, but without the cash, we need the players we have to do their jobs and play better. We don't need to break up a structure that was working well.

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

Thanks for the replies @ged in the onion bag, @shefcanary and @BigFish, much appreciated. On balance (and again not having seen the recent games), I think I'm with Sheff. Liked the way Wagner was setting us up, but do wonder if we might be better off in 4231 given who we are missing. Certainly Wagner has a lot to prove over the next few games: a real coaching challenge to respond to. I really like him personally and hope he can rise to the occasion. Could get ugly if he can't.

[BigFish 1,988]

10 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Thanks for the replies @ged in the onion bag, @shefcanary and @BigFish, much appreciated. On balance (and again not having seen the recent games), I think I'm with Sheff. Liked the way Wagner was setting us up, but do wonder if we might be better off in 4231 given who we are missing. Certainly Wagner has a lot to prove over the next few games: a real coaching challenge to respond to. I really like him personally and hope he can rise to the occasion. Could get ugly if he can't.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what base formation we start with. The key is the positional movement afterwards and how well the players play individually. With Barnes and Nunez out I can see an argument for playing Forshaw and pushing Sara forward. But that isn't Forshaw as a CDM, but an 8 in a double pivot with McClean and that isn't Sara as a 10, but a false 9. The wide men would still invert and width still comes from the full-backs. Still aren't we due to see Sainz tonight?

[ged in the onion bag 856]

11 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Thanks for the replies @ged in the onion bag, @shefcanary and @BigFish, much appreciated. On balance (and again not having seen the recent games), I think I'm with Sheff. Liked the way Wagner was setting us up, but do wonder if we might be better off in 4231 given who we are missing. Certainly Wagner has a lot to prove over the next few games: a real coaching challenge to respond to. I really like him personally and hope he can rise to the occasion. Could get ugly if he can't.

I'd be intrigued to know what fans think the formation is!   To me its still a 4-2-3-1 although the 3 are too often right in front of the 2.

Last Saturday, it was a 2-7-1 of course!

[Besthorpe-48 103]

So there we have it one bad display (swallow) makes a summer (winter)

I think there are issues about inflexibility of the wagner system. 

However let's wait and see what happens tonight and on Saturday. Then there might be adequate cause for concern.

 

[Calle 16]

Agree with a lot  of others, OP is spot on. We´ve been heading downwards for a couple of seasons now, and the fact that we give new contracts to players previously deemed not good enough (Hernandez) and start others (Placheta) proves this. 

Can´t help thinking "what if", if we hade built on the team from the first Farke promotion, the same way one was thinking the summer when we got van Volfsvinkel, Fer, Hooper and a few others...

As it stands, this team has no quality and no future. What are we trying to achive? Seems like there´s no plan...