What has happened to the model?

[rock bus 876]

The recent comments re appointment of agents to support the recruitment of Webber's replacement has again made me think about what has happened to the model he had promised to introduce.

The arrival of Webber and Farke brought a fantastic sense of optimism and togetherness to the club. We were promised a model and a strategy which would ensure progression and development for years. When Farke struggled in the first year I think it was this sense of a wider vision that ensured fans remained supportive.

Like many I was gutted when Farke left but was even more dismayed with the appointment of Smith which showed a total betrayal of the concept of developing a style of play throughout the club. It also totally contradicted the previous assurances that part of Webber's role was to be constantly vigilant to the next managerial appointment. This was with the aim of maintaining a consistent style and approach so we didn't have to tear everything up and start again. I now feel we have had to do this twice with Smith and then Wagner.

We now seem to be in the exactly same position with Webber's departure. Again he has previously been very keen to emphasise that potential successors would be identified and that it would be a smooth process. Most of us expected this to be Adams but that's clearly not the case (which I think is a good thing!). He has kept his promise not to leave us in the lurch but we now seem to be in the very odd position where 4 months after he handed his notice we are only now appointing agency to support us. We are also facing the risk of him joining a direct rival.

The legacy that was promised certainly doesn't appear to be materialising and I fear we have ended up back at square one - but with better training facilities and a proposed swimming pool.

[Midlands Yellow 4,122]

25 minutes ago, rock bus said:

The recent comments re appointment of agents to support the recruitment of Webber's replacement has again made me think about what has happened to the model he had promised to introduce.

The arrival of Webber and Farke brought a fantastic sense of optimism and togetherness to the club. We were promised a model and a strategy which would ensure progression and development for years. When Farke struggled in the first year I think it was this sense of a wider vision that ensured fans remained supportive.

Like many I was gutted when Farke left but was even more dismayed with the appointment of Smith which showed a total betrayal of the concept of developing a style of play throughout the club. It also totally contradicted the previous assurances that part of Webber's role was to be constantly vigilant to the next managerial appointment. This was with the aim of maintaining a consistent style and approach so we didn't have to tear everything up and start again. I now feel we have had to do this twice with Smith and then Wagner.

We now seem to be in the exactly same position with Webber's departure. Again he has previously been very keen to emphasise that potential successors would be identified and that it would be a smooth process. Most of us expected this to be Adams but that's clearly not the case (which I think is a good thing!). He has kept his promise not to leave us in the lurch but we now seem to be in the very odd position where 4 months after he handed his notice we are only now appointing agency to support us. We are also facing the risk of him joining a direct rival.

The legacy that was promised certainly doesn't appear to be materialising and I fear we have ended up back at square one - but with better training facilities and a proposed swimming pool.

Most sane people have come to the conclusion is just doesn’t work in the top flight. Apart from that it’s great. 

[Yobocop 1,106]

I don’t think the optimism set in until the second season as there were several people calling for Farkes head. 

the game in the second season where we were beaten 4-0 (I think) I was calling for his head which was just before the Ipswich draw, then as they say the rest was history

for me this defines the Webber stewardship, it worked up until a point and that point was the comparatively limited budget we/he had to work with in the Premier league, that with the Covid interruption severely dented our progress, it worked well the following season but I think a lot of that was down to the fact there was no crowds and we benefited from the 5 subs. 

a further defining moment was the appointment of Dean smith which was never going to work. 

morale of the story is we couldn’t stick with Farke as it clearly wasn’t going to work given our resource and budget but the plan off the pitch has very much come to fruition we just need to find that winning formula on the pitch, I see us as a similar trajectory as Sheff Utd, struggled first season back but then came up trumps in the second season. 

 

[lake district canary 4,563]

7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Most sane people have come to the conclusion is just doesn’t work in the top flight. Apart from that it’s great. 

As one of the insane ones, my faith was in the character of the man we got rid of to gradually develop us over several years. So he failed in the first PL season - for varying reasons beyond his control, he failed in the second one, again for varying reasons - mainly no preparation time with new players and a horrendous starting fixture list.....but then sacked, just as we got our first win and a huge psychoilogical boost. If relegated anyway had he stayed, we would have done better with him in charge than we did last season - and then maybe a third attempt at the PL, maybe with a bit more developed a squad.

We are a club that breaks the mould - we should have been strong enough to resist outside pressures, recognising we had a man who was a great fit for our club.  So Thomas Frank is similar and he got his team to stay up, but then one of our targets preferred to be in London - and that is the kind of thing we are up against in recruiting players. We needed to be strong, send a message that we don't do things like other clubs - and we don't.  We are a one off and should stand up against what others think is normal.

[WD40 724]

Absolutely. All that gumf about succession planning, how there’s a shortlist, his job was to prepare the club for his successor…all rubbish.

They’ve now had to pay someone else to come in and help with the search because there was no planning.

[ged in the onion bag 876]

26 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Most sane people have come to the conclusion is just doesn’t work in the top flight. Apart from that it’s great. 

As we don't have any money either, why will most of these 'sane' people be expecting some kind of promotion effort next season!  

They can't have it both ways!   

It certainly can't work if its built on belief rather than ability which is the way Webber has been moving it.     We don't have a team capable of promotion now so why strive for it at the expense of developing something better. 

It is possible to survive and thrive, just not with inadequate staff, mistake after mistake and desparation to get back to the EPL at all costs.    

Edited July 4, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Kenny Foggo 1,122]

I hope Webbers plan at Leeds is as successful as ours has been in the last couple of seasons.

[Mello Yello 2,315]

...Our current 'model'...

[Capt. Pants 4,334]

We are in limbo because of distractions regarding the ownership. There seems no end in sight to that either.

My gut feel is that Webber's successor was identified but they decided they weren't interested. I suspect the club knows where and when Webber will end up and no longer want him involved in the process, hence a third party becoming involved.

For now the project is dead, we are like any other club in this division. It doesn't mean with a fair wind we can't compete, but it's going to be tough.

[canarybubbles 1,970]

18 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

We are in limbo because of distractions regarding the ownership. There seems no end in sight to that either.

My gut feel is that Webber's successor was identified but they decided they weren't interested. I suspect the club knows where and when Webber will end up and no longer want him involved in the process, hence a third party becoming involved.

For now the project is dead, we are like any other club in this division. It doesn't mean with a fair wind we can't compete, but it's going to be tough.

Yes, the project is as dead as a Norwegian Blue. Not sure when exactly it died, but the hiring of Smith (with an alternative of Lampard) might as well mark the official day. Webber had one essential task - to have someone ready to take over if Farke left - and he failed to do it. Now he has another essential task - someone to take over when he himself leaves - and it seems he has failed to do that as well. The King is in the altogether, the altogether ...

Meanwhile, our owners seem to care more about Stuart Webber than they do about NCFC.

[hogesar 9,822]

I thought Webber was so bad we didn't want him picking his successor?

Now we do?

Which one is it? 

The project is bigger than Stuart Webber. We can thank him for all the infrastructure improvements but all the staff working in and around the youth academy and onwards have to buy in. 

I never really understand posts like this. If we win most games next season no-one will give a single f*ck about a "model" or our "ethos". If we lose every game then it doesn't matter how good we portray a "model", the same rubbish will be spouted by the same people.

[hertfordyellow 460]

Again I think some of the comments in this thread are overly pessimistic. 

1) The project is not dead. The hard work of proactively embracing new markets in a methodical and creative way post Brexit has / is already reaping benefits. Sara, Nunez and now Reyes into the club with others following. The embedding of a permanent scouting / data team ahead of Brexit is criminally undervalued by a fanbase that would rather play the man not the ball.

2) A major part of the 'project' was to create the facilities and academy to rival top 10 Premiership clubs. That has been a success and it is clear that a) the academy is producing a healthy conveyor of potential b) the facilities are helping us secure signings (Sara and Sainz especially)

3) The recent announcement has not hindered transfer cohesion, far from it. We needed experience, three through the door. We needed creativity, Sainz is in. We needed to fill the academy with new blood, two already found.

4) I don't know why it was announced when it was, I suspect their hand was forced by media. That said he has a year, he can't just jump ship to a revival. Maybe he will still hand over to Adams but feels he needs a longer period of shadowing the role before taking it on.

[BroadstairsR 2,235]

Model, project? .... my ar-se, that's just Webber speak, bull shine for the gullible.

Its thin veneer was shown up by Farke's sacking and virtually everything since.

OK it has to be conceded that the Colney 'project' has been outstanding and whilst the academy has been fruitful, it needs time to see through and a consistent managerial set-up. Which we had. Then along came Smith.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[canarybubbles 1,970]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I thought Webber was so bad we didn't want him picking his successor?

Now we do?

Which one is it? 

The project is bigger than Stuart Webber. We can thank him for all the infrastructure improvements but all the staff working in and around the youth academy and onwards have to buy in. 

I never really understand posts like this. If we win most games next season no-one will give a single f*ck about a "model" or our "ethos". If we lose every game then it doesn't matter how good we portray a "model", the same rubbish will be spouted by the same people.

Ideally, I want him to leave. Immediately. So, no, in a perfect world I don't want him having anything to do with picking his successor. Although sadly our owners seem to have abrogated all responsibility for the club, so I don't know who is going to make that decision in his absence. The Attanasios? Perhaps, although I wouldn't be surprised if they're considering jumping ship when they look at the shambles we have become.

You may be grateful that Webber is deigning to stay with us until he jumps to Leeds at a date which suits him rather than the club, but I'm not. 

[hogesar 9,822]

Just now, canarybubbles said:

Ideally, I want him to leave. Immediately. So, no, in a perfect world I don't want him having anything to do with picking his successor. Although sadly our owners seem to have abrogated all responsibility for the club, so I don't know who is going to make that decision in his absence. The Attanasios? Perhaps, although I wouldn't be surprised if they're considering jumping ship when they look at the shambles we have become.

You may be grateful that Webber is deigning to stay with us until he jumps to Leeds at a date which suits him rather than the club, but I'm not. 

I'm not grateful for it. IF the club is and it's in the clubs best interests - after all those involved would know better than me or you, and with Attanassio involved as a third party too to balance things - then great.

I'm not going to sit on a forum and pretend I know more about what's going on inside the club than those inside the club. And I don't really see the value in claiming all these terrible possibilities.

Instead, I reckon looking forward to next season as a football fan is far more enjoyable. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,122]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

As one of the insane ones, my faith was in the character of the man we got rid of to gradually develop us over several years. So he failed in the first PL season - for varying reasons beyond his control, he failed in the second one, again for varying reasons - mainly no preparation time with new players and a horrendous starting fixture list.....but then sacked, just as we got our first win and a huge psychoilogical boost. If relegated anyway had he stayed, we would have done better with him in charge than we did last season - and then maybe a third attempt at the PL, maybe with a bit more developed a squad.

We are a club that breaks the mould - we should have been strong enough to resist outside pressures, recognising we had a man who was a great fit for our club.  So Thomas Frank is similar and he got his team to stay up, but then one of our targets preferred to be in London - and that is the kind of thing we are up against in recruiting players. We needed to be strong, send a message that we don't do things like other clubs - and we don't.  We are a one off and should stand up against what others think is normal.

I’m thinking more of the owners Lakey who keep us stuck in this model. 

[PurpleCanary 5,607]

55 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Again I think some of the comments in this thread are overly pessimistic. 

1) The project is not dead. The hard work of proactively embracing new markets in a methodical and creative way post Brexit has / is already reaping benefits. Sara, Nunez and now Reyes into the club with others following. The embedding of a permanent scouting / data team ahead of Brexit is criminally undervalued by a fanbase that would rather play the man not the ball.

2) A major part of the 'project' was to create the facilities and academy to rival top 10 Premiership clubs. That has been a success and it is clear that a) the academy is producing a healthy conveyor of potential b) the facilities are helping us secure signings (Sara and Sainz especially)

3) The recent announcement has not hindered transfer cohesion, far from it. We needed experience, three through the door. We needed creativity, Sainz is in. We needed to fill the academy with new blood, two already found.

4) I don't know why it was announced when it was, I suspect their hand was forced by media. That said he has a year, he can't just jump ship to a revival. Maybe he will still hand over to Adams but feels he needs a longer period of shadowing the role before taking it on.

Good post.

[Mengo 826]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

Model, project? .... my ar-se, that's just Webber speak, bull shine for the gullible.

Its thin veneer was shown up by Farke's sacking and virtually everything since.

OK it has to be conceded that the Colney 'project' has been outstanding and whilst the academy has been fruitful, it needs time to see through and a consistent managerial set-up. Which we had. Then along came Smith.

 

Model, project? .... my ar-se, that's just Webber speak, bull shine for the gullible.

Its thin veneer was shown up by Farke's sacking and virtually everything since.

Oh so very true 👍 and pay yourself a very handsome salary after the keys to Norwich  City football club , we're handed over 😉 by the owners who stated , you can do what you like , we don't have the money , words to that effect. 

This is where we are now . Time for another pay rise maybe , who knows. 

[Mengo 826]

3 hours ago, WD40 said:

Absolutely. All that gumf about succession planning, how there’s a shortlist, his job was to prepare the club for his successor…all rubbish.

They’ve now had to pay someone... else to come in and help with the search because there was no planning.

Very much ...... all 🗑 rubbish. 👍✔️ bùĺĺshìt . 

Succession  planning , straight from the managerial corporate handbook pìśh. Nonsense!

Edited July 4, 2023 by Mengo

[CirclePoint 205]

4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

As one of the insane ones, my faith was in the character of the man we got rid of to gradually develop us over several years. So he failed in the first PL season - for varying reasons beyond his control, he failed in the second one, again for varying reasons - mainly no preparation time with new players and a horrendous starting fixture list.....but then sacked, just as we got our first win and a huge psychoilogical boost. If relegated anyway had he stayed, we would have done better with him in charge than we did last season - and then maybe a third attempt at the PL, maybe with a bit more developed a squad.

We are a club that breaks the mould - we should have been strong enough to resist outside pressures, recognising we had a man who was a great fit for our club.  So Thomas Frank is similar and he got his team to stay up, but then one of our targets preferred to be in London - and that is the kind of thing we are up against in recruiting players. We needed to be strong, send a message that we don't do things like other clubs - and we don't.  We are a one off and should stand up against what others think is normal.

And not to forget the horrendous string of injuries during our last two seasons in the PL.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

What has happened to the model....

 

 

its been remodelled . 

[Google Bot 3,391]

4 hours ago, WD40 said:

They’ve now had to pay someone else to come in and help with the search because there was no planning.

I think that was evident when Smith arrived, Webber probably means the best but he's a bit of a dreamer.  Probably thought getting rid of Farke we were prem league enough to attract the likes of Knutsen or Lampard, but reality kicked it very quickly.

[ged in the onion bag 876]

I really supported this project, still do if it was carried out properly and competently..... sadly it died rather ironically when 'we 'p*ssed all the money up the wall', lost Buendia and perhaps the scout Keiran Scott!

[Canario 219]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

I thought Webber was so bad we didn't want him picking his successor?

Now we do?

Which one is it? 

The project is bigger than Stuart Webber. We can thank him for all the infrastructure improvements but all the staff working in and around the youth academy and onwards have to buy in. 

I never really understand posts like this. If we win most games next season no-one will give a single f*ck about a "model" or our "ethos". If we lose every game then it doesn't matter how good we portray a "model", the same rubbish will be spouted by the same people.

The truth is always somewhere between the two sides.

However the lack of contingency in terms of coaching and style of play is unforgiveable.

The whole premise of the "model" was to have a coaching strategy in place from kids up to seniors. Farke had this in place and then is sacked and replaced by Smith?! How in God's name is Smith a continuation of what Farke put in place?

Edited July 4, 2023 by Canario

[Pyro Pete 1,941]

 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,160]

I'm annoyed that we haven't stuck to 'the model' in terms of always having a shortlist of available head coaches and sporting directors at hand for whenever we need to pull the trigger. That was supposed to be a big part of it not putting our head in the sand then scrambling to find a replacement when we have to make a decision. The fact that we didn't have Farke's replacement lined up was poor, likewise as soon as Webber handed his notice in his replacement should have been known and pursued. 

On the playing philosophy though we did mess things up by panicking and appointing Smith but there's no reason why we can't shift to how a Norwich team are supposed to play depending on how things are trending in football. Possession football does not work at the top level for a team with no money so it had to change. There was no point in appointing another Farke like manager in terms of his philosophy at the time because Farke is about as good as we could ever attract in that style so it wouldn't have made a difference. We correctly identified that it couldn't work for us (too late though) and instead of immediately shifting towards the more-pressing style the club now wants us to play we gambled on Smith keeping us up by playing pragmatically and then again that he could get us promoted straight away. I get why we did it but it's taken us backwards and set us back to the place we were when Webber took over. 

We should have had 4 names ready to go when we decided to get rid of Farke who all played the style of football we are trying to play now if this is the route we decided to go. All 4 should have been contacted prior to make sure they would at least be interested in talking and we should have moved to get who we wanted and not be swayed by any names that suddenly become available. Same thing with Webber, it was part of his job to have his replacements lined up. That we're only just now going to at some point use outside help to try to find his replacement after the media got wind of it is really poor and goes against how we were told this model is supposed to work. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Christoph Stiepermann

[Google Bot 3,391]

14 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

That we're now going to at some point use outside help to try to find his replacement after the media got wind of it is really poor and goes against how we were told this model is supposed to work. 

The model is kinda working if the 12 month notice period is adhered to, at least for the duration that we as a club want it to last of course.  While people are hating on Webber and no longer trust him, there is a smooth transition in place - and it's never going to be perfect, let's be hoenst.

We also don't know what kind of visibility there was in Webber making this decision, or reason behind it, either.  To know if the model has failed in regards to SD position.

i.e. Was it because the Leeds job came up, or was it due to the personal abuse that he received?  It's possible Stu is 'officially' playing the abuse card internally and not letting on about the Leeds side of things.  As this ties in to him wanting to get himself into  'warts and all' style interviews recently, it seemed like an agenda he was keen to put on record to me.

But then If that's the case then it reflects bad on Zoe, as she knows more on a personal level that she wouldn't disclose professionally.   

There's a lot of jagged edges when you break down the many permutations of what is going on behind the scenes, and that's not even bringing in the Attanasio factor.

All we can hope for is as smooth as possible transition and for activities to continue well during this window, so far it all looks smooth sailing to me and we need to be at least thankful for that - it could be a lot worse and we could be in a situation where Webber's pissed off and we're going through legal battles.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Google Bot

[norfolkngood 1,099]

The model can work look at brentford ,

The Recruitment that Summer was key and who ever was in charge of that got it really wrong

also there was no plan for when Farke left , 

if we had got the right spent the Emi and PL money better the club would have been better off as a whole on the pitch ,

 

[aBee 152]

It’s ideal to have a pipeline of future managers, sporting directors and other off field staff all ready lined up but it’s not as easy as doing that for players (and that’s not that easy!). It also needs “the model” to be very deeply embedded across the club from ownership down all the way through to academy. If the only real owner and advocate for the model is the SD it is flimsy and reliant on their personal opinion rather than being a cultural thing when they go. If the SD also doesn’t have a very clear idea of what the model looks like on the pitch they can’t do any of the recruitment, least of all the manager/head coach. 
 

Smith didn’t work, but I think the rationale wasn’t to move to a pragmatic approach but to take a coach who was comfortable working in a club with “a model” under a SD and doing the best with available players in the context of the preferred footballing philosophy. But that philosophy for you was not the club’s or Webber’s or the owners’ but Farke’s and went with him. Leeds suffered much the same transitioning from Bielsa but were more honest that their model was to do whatever Bielsa asked for. Their own attempt in their choice of Marsch was less impressive, but it might mean Farke will do well there too. 

[RobJames 905]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

I thought Webber was so bad we didn't want him picking his successor?

Now we do?

Which one is it? 

The project is bigger than Stuart Webber. We can thank him for all the infrastructure improvements but all the staff working in and around the youth academy and onwards have to buy in. 

I never really understand posts like this. If we win most games next season no-one will give a single f*ck about a "model" or our "ethos". If we lose every game then it doesn't matter how good we portray a "model", the same rubbish will be spouted by the same people.

I say, steady on old fellow. These people who complain " why can''t we be more like Swansea, Stoke, Hull, Boro, Sunderland Cardiff, Blackburn ......" All recently PL clubs, who could be thought to be our size (you might excuse clubs like Wigan, Huddersfield, Blackpool whose PL time might be thought a 'one off) do have a point.

For the others, you do not see them having a single bad season as we have had. Clubs from larger cities like Derby, Wednesday and Portsmouth. You don't see them spending years outside the PL, or even the Championship.

And talking of big cities, why can't we be more like Leeds. Southampton or Leicester. Consolidating our position in the PL, and staying there. Look at our neighbours down the A140. Have they been in the wilderness for the past 20 year ? Look how well they have done in those 20 years. Not for them lower league titles, as us (four). In fact, they have stuck to their guns. It's the PL title or nothing.

So, try to understand where these folk with a constant bellyache are coming from. We have struggled like no other club. This has been the worst period in our history (ask a '59er).

A club and City of our size should be in the Champions League at the very least. What is it about our club that has failed, so miserably, when set against those 15 or so clubs ?