Daniel Farke to Leeds

[king canary 7,609]

7 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yeah, that checks out. Just always seemed a good man.

Maybe it is teenage rose tinted glasses but the whole club felt 'nice' back in that era. I remember as a kid going to the open days and getting to explore the ground, meet players and get photos and autographs. Very family friendly.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

23 hours ago, shefcanary said:

I remember us never winning without Emi in the team!

Beat Forest 2-0 with Lukas Rupp setting both up IIRC.

[Google Bot 3,278]

44 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Beat Forest 2-0 with Lukas Rupp setting both up IIRC.

Exception proving the rule?

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Exception proving the rule?

Possibly, but Shef simply said "I remember us never winning". Just pointing out an occasion where we did.

Might have been the only one though.

[Segura 84]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, agree with you and @Fen Canary. Worthington did an outstanding job. We were such a rabble when he took over, just mired in the second tier and really not looking like going anywhere. It's astonishing he got those players into the top six: he did it with real organisation and teamwork - the classic manager's job, really. Then he saw what that team was missing, an attacking cutting edge, made the board see it by picking a team with no strikers in the League Cup (was it against Northampton?) and went out and got Huckerby. That title season under Worthington was an absolute joy, and as someone often says on here, we were one goal short of staying up the following season (just one goal to turn one of our many, many draws into a win).

I think one of the reasons he gets forgotten is that he was a quiet, uncharismatic man, unlike Farke who just oozed charisma. But he did a great job as City manager and it was a great shame that the drawn-out nature of his departure led to him getting personal abuse such a decent man really didn't deserve.

Also, I really did love Paul McVeigh.

Totally agree re Worthy and thanks for bringing back memories from two of my favourite seasons, 01-02 and 03-04.

Another thing I find strange is how he appears to have just drifted out of the game completely - I'm sure several Championship clubs would have taken him off the basis of his work at Norwich.

Looking back, I think he should have left after 05-06 (I know in reality no manager would walk out on a decent contract) but things were starting to get a bit stale and the abuse he went on to suffer was a bit rum, considering all he had done for the club.

[Mr Angry 1,562]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, agree with you and @Fen Canary. Worthington did an outstanding job. We were such a rabble when he took over, just mired in the second tier and really not looking like going anywhere. It's astonishing he got those players into the top six: he did it with real organisation and teamwork - the classic manager's job, really. Then he saw what that team was missing, an attacking cutting edge, made the board see it by picking a team with no strikers in the League Cup (was it against Northampton?) and went out and got Huckerby. That title season under Worthington was an absolute joy, and as someone often says on here, we were one goal short of staying up the following season (just one goal to turn one of our many, many draws into a win).

I think one of the reasons he gets forgotten is that he was a quiet, uncharismatic man, unlike Farke who just oozed charisma. But he did a great job as City manager and it was a great shame that the drawn-out nature of his departure led to him getting personal abuse such a decent man really didn't deserve.

Also, I really did love Paul McVeigh.

I was at that game, Ian Henderson and Ryan Jarvis played up front-a 17 year old and an 18 year old-one of the worst team performances I have seen. Mind you, he had David Nielsen and McVeigh on the bench.

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Beat Forest 2-0 with Lukas Rupp setting both up IIRC.

Yes, we were a brilliant footballing side with or without Buendia in. That we won more with him in the team is no surprise, he was a great player for us, but we were capable of great looking football when he was out of the team or after him being subbed off in matches. 

[jaberry2 550]

On 09/06/2023 at 22:18, unique said:

Joint favourite with Gerrard, apparently.

How would you feel if that happened?

Happy for him, but absolutely gutted……

Couldnt care less in all honesty. Best of luck to him if he decides to go to dirty Leeds.

[Mr Angry 1,562]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Possibly, but Shef simply said "I remember us never winning". Just pointing out an occasion where we did.

Might have been the only one though.

Also Huddersfield away first game of the season.

Norwich’s record with and without Emi shows pretty clearly how vital he was in the Championship:

2018/19- 

35 starts, 25 wins, 8 draws, 2 defeats.

3 sub appearances, 2 wins, 1 defeat.

8 games absent, 5 draws, 2 defeats.

2020/21-

39 starts, 27 wins, 7 draws, 5 defeats.

7 games absent, 2 wins, 3 draws, 2 defeats.

 

[shefcanary 2,409]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Possibly, but Shef simply said "I remember us never winning". Just pointing out an occasion where we did.

Might have been the only one though.

Probably at a gig that night! Cries of plastic ensue! 😆 Definitely on holiday for the Terriers game!

Edited June 12, 2023 by shefcanary

[Mello Yello 2,296]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

Maybe it is teenage rose tinted glasses but the whole club felt 'nice' back in that era. I remember as a kid going to the open days and getting to explore the ground, meet players and get photos and autographs. Very family friendly.

I agree....and a lot of that was down to Mr Andrew Cullen then our Director of sales and marketing....a huge loss when he departed....

A real nice bloke....  

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

I think this is the key point with Farke. I think Amadou is a key case in point. When we went up we clearly needed a DM. Amadou came in with a fair bit of pedigree- over 100 top flight games, captain of a Bielsa team etc etc. Watching him he clearly had the athletic profile/physicality we'd lacked but he also was clearly not as comfortable on the ball as players like Trybull. However Farke wasn't willing to compromise on ability on the ball and thus he barely ever played as a DM and our midfield got cut through with ease week after week. 

I'm not saying Amadou would have saved our season- but at some point you have to accept that you're not going to get a Premier League level DM who is also comfortable on the ball without either digging out an incredible diamond like Leicester did with Kante or you have to accept a bit of compromise. To get the kind of players to play Farkeball at the top level you need a huge budget or an awful lot of luck in your recruitment. 

 

Another good point. If you remember back to when he first started he didn't rate Tettey at all based on his ability in training to play one touch football, he was forced to use him when we were shipping goals and then became a vital part of his team, part of me always thought though that he'd rather play without him if he could. 

It makes sense obviously, if you're Tony Pulis you're not going to like players who are under 6ft, if you're Marcelo Bielsa you're not going to want players who can't run etc so obviously Farke is not going to want players who aren't at a certain level when it comes to technical passing but as we've established to out-pass teams at that level, up against the kind of organization, pace and physicality you find at that level you need top class players. I get really frustrated when people think that it could've worked with him if we spent the money better or signed a few players for 13m instead of 10m because for me that still wouldn't have been anywhere near enough. 

Managers like Hodgson/Frank/Cooper/Moyes/Silva etc are not stupid and there's a reason they all don't set their sides up like Farke did. Speaking of Silva that's another point, Fulham finally broke their yo-yo cycle by moving away from their possession focused approach to hiring a manager who likes to counter attack, they haven't done anything else differently really, their spending was similar across their last few PL seasons, they signed the same type of players but they changed their approach and it kept them up easily. They're a good example for us, they tried to do what we tried to do but had hundreds of millions more to spend and the bonus of being London based to attract players, they did a bit better than us points-wise but they couldn't stay up playing passing football so it's crazy to think we could've done it with less money. 

I loved Farke and I loved watching his style in the Championship but it was a dead end. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

Maybe it is teenage rose tinted glasses but the whole club felt 'nice' back in that era. I remember as a kid going to the open days and getting to explore the ground, meet players and get photos and autographs. Very family friendly.

Not sure how how you are, but do you remember the "Family Night Football" they used to do? I can't even remember what room in Carrow Road it was done in, but they've put fun and games, circus skills, Razz the Clown and Captain Canary all in for an hour or so before going to watch the Reserves play. Wednesdays nights they were. Used to love that as a kid. Pretty sure it was free too, at least for kids, and probably a nominal charge for adults.

[Google Bot 3,278]

1 minute ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I loved Farke and I loved watching his style in the Championship but it was a dead end. 

I don't buy that, lack of suitable players was the downfall.  Smith came in with a different more pragmatic style and we were still ****e, and then more ****e in the Championship. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

I think this is the key point with Farke. I think Amadou is a key case in point. When we went up we clearly needed a DM. Amadou came in with a fair bit of pedigree- over 100 top flight games, captain of a Bielsa team etc etc. Watching him he clearly had the athletic profile/physicality we'd lacked but he also was clearly not as comfortable on the ball as players like Trybull. However Farke wasn't willing to compromise on ability on the ball and thus he barely ever played as a DM and our midfield got cut through with ease week after week. 

I'm not saying Amadou would have saved our season- but at some point you have to accept that you're not going to get a Premier League level DM who is also comfortable on the ball without either digging out an incredible diamond like Leicester did with Kante or you have to accept a bit of compromise. To get the kind of players to play Farkeball at the top level you need a huge budget or an awful lot of luck in your recruitment. 

 

I'm not sure Amadou really is a good case in point. The vast majority of his top flight games you refer to were Ligue 1 with a bit part season at Sevilla where many of his 17 appearances were off the bench. He didn't pull up any trees after his season with us either. 

The reason he featured so infrequently for us has nothing to do with Farke wanting his CDMs to be ball players. It was because he just wasn't very good.

[Well b back 3,208]

Farke will be f***** at Leeds then as he isn’t going to sign Emi anytime soon.

Also doesn’t look that good for Farke’s management skills or style of football if he can’t get a side winning without one particular player. 

[Monty13 2,235]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, we were a brilliant footballing side with or without Buendia in. That we won more with him in the team is no surprise, he was a great player for us, but we were capable of great looking football when he was out of the team or after him being subbed off in matches. 

Statically the data does not back that up.

There’s a massive difference between with or without Buendia.

We won 70% of EFL games with him as opposed to 7% without him. 2.3 PPG with v 0.8 without is an incredible swing.

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Statically the data does not back that up.

There’s a massive difference between with or without Buendia.

We won 70% of EFL games with him as opposed to 7% without him. 2.3 PPG with v 0.8 without is an incredible swing.

 

That's from Michael Bailey, I remember reading that. He doesn't dig down too deeply, as there were a couple of occasions in the first title-winning season where Buendia came off and the game improved but he counted them as not winning without Buendia in the team. One game against Blackburn was 0-0 when Buendia came off injured and we won the game 1-0. Another was the Leitner goal against the s(um that allegedly saved Farke's job; 1-0 down when Buendia came off, game finished 1-1.

The article form which you got your numbers was also in February. We played another game without Buendia that season and won it 2-0.

So in reality, that PPG is artificially low, realistically it should be 1.2 PPG. Still absolutely nowhere near as good as without him, but he was our star player, the majority of teams are considerably worse without their talisman. Aston Villa's PPG with Grealish was 1.8 and dropped to 0.94 without him. At the same time as that Athletic article, TalkSport published one about Liverpool and showed that without Mo Salah, they would have been 15th rather than in the Champions League spots. I'm not sure people would be using that to argue Klopp is rubbish.

[Nuff Said 5,142]

On 11/06/2023 at 16:28, Highland Canary said:

Leeds nailed on for the title. So disappointing. If only we could get new investment into the club. If we carry on our current rate of decline we’ll finish back in tier three.

No fire sale?

[lake district canary 4,531]

26 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Statically the data does not back that up.

There’s a massive difference between with or without Buendia.

We won 70% of EFL games with him as opposed to 7% without him. 2.3 PPG with v 0.8 without is an incredible swing.

Statistics can be misleading. For instance the whole team was struggling at the start of 2018/19 and it wasn't because he wasn't in available for the team - it was simply that we had several new players who we were trying to bed in, so there are several games you could take out of the mix.

In his first appearance for us, against Preston (as sub) the team still struggled and it was Zimmermann who made the difference when he  came off the bench, not Buendia.

There are all sorts of variables like this. For instance, him being injured and several other players being out through injury too and we struggle......so it's not a simple picture.  Context is everything.

Yes, he made a big difference and was brilliant for us, but stats do not give the full picture. It is like those who look at Farke's PL stats without the context of covid, injuries and lack of quality players and say our bad record was purely down to him. two sides of the same coin. I'll repeat, because I'm sure some will not have seen it that I think Buendia was brilliant for us, but the stats do not give the full picture. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

So Farke's chances of getting the Leeds job have just significantly improved....

 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

....and also Leicester seem to be closing in on Scott Parker. 

 

[Keith Scott 244]

The idea of seeing Farke in the Leeds dugout makes me feel physically sick. I could handle him going to almost any other English club. But not Leeds. Not ****ing Leeds! If it was almost any other club I'd wish him nothing but success. But not Leeds. Hope he sends them to league one. **** Leeds. This will be ten times worse than seeing Lambert at Villa.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

[Google Bot 3,278]

1 hour ago, Keith Scott said:

The idea of seeing Farke in the Leeds dugout makes me feel physically sick.

Celtic looks a far better fit, I'd expect that's where he'd go if he does jump into a new job this month.

[Bradwell canary 109]

On 09/06/2023 at 22:32, Google Bot said:

It would be heart-breaking, but I love his style of play so would be nice to see him back managing in this country.  We've moved on now, the past is the past.

Personally, they're reasonably high profile and I couldn't see them taking the gamble based on his Prem League record, though.  I would love to see him playing farkeball at a club that better equipped him with players though, from a curiosity perspective more than anything.

Not sure about moving on. more like moving backward!

[Capt. Pants 4,237]

As much as I don't want to see him at Leeds, Celtic seems a bit of a cop out. If he can't win a title there  with zero opposition, he can't win one anywhere. 

Perhaps progression in the Champions League might be attractive to him, and after all Celtic will want to improve upon last season's pathetic attempt by Scottish clubs.

Leeds seems a better project for him in my opinion.

 

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

That's from Michael Bailey, I remember reading that. He doesn't dig down too deeply, as there were a couple of occasions in the first title-winning season where Buendia came off and the game improved but he counted them as not winning without Buendia in the team. One game against Blackburn was 0-0 when Buendia came off injured and we won the game 1-0. Another was the Leitner goal against the s(um that allegedly saved Farke's job; 1-0 down when Buendia came off, game finished 1-1.

The article form which you got your numbers was also in February. We played another game without Buendia that season and won it 2-0.

So in reality, that PPG is artificially low, realistically it should be 1.2 PPG. Still absolutely nowhere near as good as without him, but he was our star player, the majority of teams are considerably worse without their talisman. Aston Villa's PPG with Grealish was 1.8 and dropped to 0.94 without him. At the same time as that Athletic article, TalkSport published one about Liverpool and showed that without Mo Salah, they would have been 15th rather than in the Champions League spots. I'm not sure people would be using that to argue Klopp is rubbish.

Yea fair, was the most in depth I could find at a quick glance. Doesn’t change the fact the PPG and win % without him was drastically lower whichever way you slice it.

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Statistics can be misleading. For instance the whole team was struggling at the start of 2018/19 and it wasn't because he wasn't in available for the team - it was simply that we had several new players who we were trying to bed in, so there are several games you could take out of the mix.

In his first appearance for us, against Preston (as sub) the team still struggled and it was Zimmermann who made the difference when he  came off the bench, not Buendia.

There are all sorts of variables like this. For instance, him being injured and several other players being out through injury too and we struggle......so it's not a simple picture.  Context is everything.

Yes, he made a big difference and was brilliant for us, but stats do not give the full picture. It is like those who look at Farke's PL stats without the context of covid, injuries and lack of quality players and say our bad record was purely down to him. two sides of the same coin. I'll repeat, because I'm sure some will not have seen it that I think Buendia was brilliant for us, but the stats do not give the full picture. 

Of course stats don’t give the full picture, but the facts remain we were far worse side in terms of results without him than with him.

The idea we were the same brilliant footballing side without him doesn’t stack up to reality, and that’s how I remember it personally too. Yea we had some results still but in general we looked worse, played worse and achieved less without him.

[Branston Pickle 3,660]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

That's from Michael Bailey, I remember reading that. He doesn't dig down too deeply, as there were a couple of occasions in the first title-winning season where Buendia came off and the game improved but he counted them as not winning without Buendia in the team. One game against Blackburn was 0-0 when Buendia came off injured and we won the game 1-0. Another was the Leitner goal against the s(um that allegedly saved Farke's job; 1-0 down when Buendia came off, game finished 1-1.

The article form which you got your numbers was also in February. We played another game without Buendia that season and won it 2-0.

So in reality, that PPG is artificially low, realistically it should be 1.2 PPG. Still absolutely nowhere near as good as without him, but he was our star player, the majority of teams are considerably worse without their talisman. Aston Villa's PPG with Grealish was 1.8 and dropped to 0.94 without him. At the same time as that Athletic article, TalkSport published one about Liverpool and showed that without Mo Salah, they would have been 15th rather than in the Champions League spots. I'm not sure people would be using that to argue Klopp is rubbish.

I recall pointing all this out several years ago - there’s little doubt that Emi was very good for us, and very influential, but you do need to look a bit deeper.  It’s definitely the case that Farke dropped a bit lucky having him in our side along with Teemu who could put the chances away, but he still had to get them going.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I recall pointing all this out several years ago - there’s little doubt that Emi was very good for us, and very influential, but you do need to look a bit deeper.  It’s definitely the case that Farke dropped a bit lucky having him in our side along with Teemu who could put the chances away, but he still had to get them going.

A good measure is how well the team played when with Emi in it rather than it being down to Emi’s individual direct influence. He lifted players that simply couldn’t operate as effectively when he wasn’t there. He was integral to us getting promoted both seasons and simply put, we wouldn’t have been if he wasn’t playing and we relied on the rest. Some may not agree as it’s not possible to go back and see, but Emi was a cheat code imo and his departure and subsequent difficulty to replace was DFs downfall and ultimately our current demise. That said, plenty of ways to skin a fat and if Luton and Sheffield Utd can go up then we can too as long as the right players are in the right system. We will see