Sargent, Dowel, Lees-Melou, Idah, McLean, Tzolis, Kabak etc

[Making Plans 957]

How on earth did they all end up here, at the same time, as Premier League players?

Barely a hint of footballing ability between them.

What did we see in them, before we bought or borrowed them, and what was the compelling reason for bringing them here other than that they were available.

So far they have offered absolutely nothing and they don't look like changing that anytime soon, if ever.

 

[Ian 1,210]

3 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

How on earth did they all end up here, at the same time, as Premier League players?

Barely a hint of footballing ability between them.

What did we see in them, before we bought or borrowed them, and what was the compelling reason for bringing them here other than that they were available.

So far they have offered absolutely nothing and they don't look like changing that anytime soon, if ever.

 

They're not world beaters, but no players play well when they have zero confidence.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,797]

Sargent is a youngster who the club hoped would play well due to him getting relegated in Germany for some reason, Dowell was part of a Championship winning side, Lees-Melou looked good in the French Divison, Idah is a player out the academy who  once showed promise, Mclean was brought in as he seemed to be a decent rotatinal option, Tzolis is a 'promising youngster' who the club hope to sell for a big profit in the future and Kabak looked like a decent player for Liverpool.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

I think we should start asking questions of Webber rather than the individual players, this is now the second time he's brought in a load of turd post-promotion, would any of these players look out of place at Bristol City or Swansea? He's brought in mid-table Championship quality with a £56m spend.

[Danke bitte 1,154]

Idah needed a loan last season and didn’t get one. 

Dowell, Kabak and PLM feel a bit mercenary to me and are Championship level.

McLean is pretty much the only option we have in the middle. 

Sargent is.. well there’s a current thread on that elsewhere.

Tzolis is another that could benefit from a season in the Championship where he can develop and build confidence.

But overall I get your point. Let’s pray we can get one more centre mid option so we can at least offer something of a challenge for the second half of the season. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

Idah had bags of potential but hasn't developed as we would have hoped so I'm not going to knock us taking a punt on him, McLean is a solid Championship level midfielder who we signed in the Championship for 250k so again nothing wrong there (Should have been upgraded a while ago though), the rest though I have no idea.

This is the flaw of a data driven model, the PL is a radically different league to other European leagues so the stats other players are pulling up in those leagues is irrelevant. 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

1 minute ago, Danke bitte said:

Idah needed a loan last season and didn’t get one. 

Dowell, Kabak and PLM feel a bit mercenary to me and are Championship level.

McLean is pretty much the only option we have in the middle. 

Sargent is.. well there’s a current thread on that elsewhere.

Tzolis is another that could benefit from a season in the Championship where he can develop and build confidence.

But overall I get your point. Let’s pray we can get one more centre mid option so we can at least offer something of a challenge for the second half of the season. 

Its three in midfield that are needed.

Not only do you have to have talent, you have to have athleticism. Ours are a bit short on the first and woefully short on the second.

[Chelm Canary 404]

PLM for me is the worst of them. I just don't see any potential and I do not understand why we brought this player to the premier League. He's a rake and flimsy on the ball. 

Tzolis - I still think there is something there...maybe. 

[Capt. Pants 5,005]

Normann and Rashica have looked good at times but neither are going to be grubbing around the Championship.

I just hope Smith is going to have a say in the type of player we bring in for next season as it certainly doesn't look as though Farke did.

[essex canary 622]

The Club spends too much time counting the pennies from the sales and too little time identifying the players we need 

[Chelm Canary 404]

I'd rather have Duda back than PLM and I'm serious. 

[Tilt 12]

The club's model is to buy younger often unknown players or players who are undervalued following a relegation and sell on for higher price.

It's a gamble.

Sometimes it works (Buendia) and sometimes it doesn't. Webber was a 'genius' because Buendia was a decent replacement for Maddison. 

This time is hasn't worked. None of the new recruits are upgrades on what we've lost, particularly in Buendia and Skipp. 

If we get promoted again following this season's relegation we'll do the same: buy cheap, unknown players and hope they can be developed and eventually sold for a decent profit. If a few come good we'll be talking about how Webber is a genius once more. If we get duds then we'll just repeat and go again. 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,531]

On todays showing we found our level at league one. It was a very even game and we were fortunate to win it. 

[Creative Midfielder 2,203]

3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think we should start asking questions of Webber rather than the individual players, this is now the second time he's brought in a load of turd post-promotion, would any of these players look out of place at Bristol City or Swansea? He's brought in mid-table Championship quality with a £56m spend.

It becomes even clearer with every game that Daniel Farke was never the problem, and frankly I find it incredible that anyone, whether fan or board member, ever thought he was!

Nor for that matter is it Delia's fault, one person alone is responsible and that is the person that oversaw a £60m spend on players this summer.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Creative Midfielder

[Thirsty Lizard 3,215]

14 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

On todays showing we found our level at league one. It was a very even game and we were fortunate to win it. 

We should have no trouble finishing above money bags Newcastle then who were outplayed at home by a team from League One. 🙂 

[canarybubbles 2,199]

28 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Idah had bags of potential but hasn't developed as we would have hoped so I'm not going to knock us taking a punt on him, McLean is a solid Championship level midfielder who we signed in the Championship for 250k so again nothing wrong there (Should have been upgraded a while ago though), the rest though I have no idea.

This is the flaw of a data driven model, the PL is a radically different league to other European leagues so the stats other players are pulling up in those leagues is irrelevant. 

 

It's not just that the stats are irrelevant because of the gulf between the PL and the rest of the European leagues, it is relying on technological fixes to holistic problems. A good scout would be able to mentally place any potential player into the existing system and squad; no amount of data on a spreadsheet can do that. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

It becomes even clearer with every game that Daniel Farke was never the problem,

I mean I'm not sure that is particularly clear, did Farke at any stage say "you know what Stu, I'm not sure Tsoliz is needed this season when we need a defensive midfielder", and Sargent was clearly a player in the Farke mold. Farke is an aspiring sporting director isn't he, no pushback at all would be a Farke failure, as would ratification of any of Webber's ideas?

I don't think level of culpability is clear at all, but I think we all know that it doesn't sit at 100% with a specific individual. 

[Creative Midfielder 2,203]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I mean I'm not sure that is particularly clear, did Farke at any stage say "you know what Stu, I'm not sure Tsoliz is needed this season when we need a defensive midfielder", and Sargent was clearly a player in the Farke mold. Farke is an aspiring sporting director isn't he, no pushback at all would be a Farke failure, as would ratification of any of Webber's ideas?

I don't think level of culpability is clear at all, but I think we all know that it doesn't sit at 100% with a specific individual. 

I think the whole football world knew we needed a defensive midfielder!!

If Webber needed Farke to tell him that than he is even culpable than I thought.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think the whole football world knew we needed a defensive midfielder!!

If Webber needed Farke to tell him that than he is even culpable than I thought.

I think they should have gone together.

They were a partnership, and they failed. One threw the other under the bus. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

Sargent and Tzolis (£10m each) were ones for the future. Considering their cost and our need for players now it is a legitimate criticism that we should not be spending this amount of money on players that do not add to the team right now. Sargent had played in the Bundesliga so it was clearly felt he would be a first team player. Which he has been. But not anywhere near the level we need. Tzolis looked great in the game against Bournemouth. Looks an absolute shadow of that player and we have to question why.

Dowell I find a really strange one. Esablished himself in the team latter half of the season, but he is a Championship standard player. Doesnt have anywhere near the athleticism required to play at the top level, which begs the question why we brought him in in the first place.

Lees-Melou has played Champions League football and was available for a reasonable price. Lots of players dont adapt and he clearly hasnt - but the question is was he ever the right type of player to play in a) The Premier League b) the English game full-stop

Idah has gone from being labelled the new Ibrahimovic by Mourinho to a player who doesnt look like he could score against anyone. He has seriously stagnated and again the club has to be questioned here. The cheap option to not buying a proper striker, when really we should have bought competition for Pukki and loaned Idah out

McLean I really dont get. First name on the team-sheet but offers very little. If you looked up 'average' in the dictionary there would be a picture of him - alongside Rupp. Yet he seems undroppable. By two managers. Bafflingly so. What does he know?!

Kabak - I think there is a player there. Physically he is a unit but is no slouch. His decision making and ability to read the game however leave a lot to be desired. He reminds me a bit of David Luiz. Not a player you'd really want in your back four, but could be effective at DM. They clearly saw Liverpool trusted him and were happy to go on that. 

[Nora's Ghost 157]

Worry about next season never mind this one.

 

 

[The Real Buh 3,765]

I said earlier on

“I’ve never wanted so many of our current squad to never play for us ever again”

[Kenny Foggo 1,193]

Those defending Webber and our board always use the word potential... We need premier league players not potential. 

We are not a club that should be paying £8 to £12m for potential. 

[Jersey Canary 180]

I think Tzolis and Sargent will come good but not quick enough for this season. We should get our lonely back on these two combined in a couple of years.

Kenny has never been good enough.

Idah - definately needed a loan last season. 
 

Kabak, Klopp thought he was good enough to play and have enough potential to play him.

Dowell is indeed not mobile enough for PL and arguably for the Championship unless we can get him to play in the Hoolahan role.  He’s a luxury player in a team doing well. 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Sargent is clearly a limited player....but...he's always in the action and is at least trying to make something happen , still shouldnt have signed him though

Tzolis on the other hand , at £10m is the most reprehensible piece of business this club has ever conducted

He supposedly may cone good but I see absolutely nothing there at all.

£10m pi$$ed up the wall when we needed players for the here and now

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,632]

PLM worse of the lot...absolute nothing player. Mario Vrancic would've offered much more than him, and anyone making a case against needs to give their head a shake.

Totally off the pace required for the EPL. And more than likely the Championship too. Appalling signing. 

[Making Plans 957]

54 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Those defending Webber and our board always use the word potential... We need premier league players not potential. 

We are not a club that should be paying £8 to £12m for potential. 

Let us be honest, none of them have potential.

What you see is what they are - useless

We are now half way through a season, they have all been given plenty of chances and the return thus far has been a big fat zero.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Making Plans

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

I said earlier on

“I’ve never wanted so many of our current squad to never play for us ever again”

Certainly can’t say I’d miss many of them if they went…

[Dean Coneys boots 1,531]

3 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

PLM for me is the worst of them. I just don't see any potential and I do not understand why we brought this player to the premier League. He's a rake and flimsy on the ball. 

Tzolis - I still think there is something there...maybe. 

Looks to me like he just can’t be bothered half the time- certainly doesn’t bleed for the cause 

[essex canary 622]

3 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

 

This is the flaw of a data driven model, the PL is a radically different league to other European leagues so the stats other players are pulling up in those leagues is irrelevant. 

 

There is a radical difference between the Greek league and say the Spanish league.