Players responsible?

[lake district canary 4,583]

First off let me say results have been awful and that is a big factor in Farke leaving. We'll never know if DF could have turned it round, but right now, it doesn't matter, he's gone and that is it, but if reports are correct that there were issues behind the scenes, perhaps about players not liking certain stuff, then that puts a new perspective on things.

If player power had anything to do with it, then that is shameful - at the start of his tenure as head coach, DF set his stall out that he would stand for no nonsense from any player while he was at the club and the club backed him on that. What got us where we are is strong management in not putting up with any nonsense from any player.  Have there been ruptions in the camp about Cantwell being left out of the squad recently? Some rumours/reports saying this. But then if DF was dealing with that, then he should have been trusted to get on with it.

All in all, things are never as black and white as they, might seem at first glance, but it was just such awful timing yesterday - the team put on a good performance and win, which could indicate that things would improve from here on in, that everyone would feel a bit better about things now a win was under the belt.

Could Farke have turned it round this season? More important now is the question - can anybody else turn it round? No team has ever come back from such a perilous position in the PL to stay up, so what we may have done is throw away something that we can't replace - a coach who is proven to win championships. Would he have done it again? 

We'll never know. Webber has rolled the dice and time will tell whether he was correct - I hope so, because if it turns out we have thrown away the main reason we have been so successful in building the club up over the last four years and in bringing thorugh yongsters so successfully, then it could be that we will all be thinking yesterday was a historical day for the wrong reasons.

OTBC

Edited November 7, 2021 by lake district canary

[Hardhouse44 261]

You need more man management skills than just patting the teachers pets on the head in modern football management. 

As I said on another thread Cantwell is arguably our most creative play. If Farke haD found away of getting a happy Todd on the pitch regularly maybe he’d have contributed to some better performances and Farke would still be here. 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,363]

One thing about Farke, when he falls out with players there’s no way back for them and they’re shipped out. That hasn’t really been an issue because of the players it’s affected up ‘til now, but when you have a major financial asset like Cantwell apparently frozen out for personal reasons it’s forced Webber to act. We don’t have the financial resources to let Cantwell leave for nought, and we need better performances and results that Daniel has been able to conjure this season.

[Naturalcynic 695]

Well, I doubt many on here will know the true story behind the issues with Cantwell and perhaps others (I certainly don’t), but the lack of resolution and the fact it has been allowed to drag on and on suggests there was no end in sight.  Given that he has the potential to be arguably one of our best players if managed correctly, then that would have been a difficult thing for any board to accept, given our dreadful league position.

“No team has ever come back from such a perilous position in the PL to stay up…”.   Yes, absolutely, which is why this decision should have been made and acted on several weeks ago.  It’s now almost certainly too late, but leaving it another few weeks would have absolutely guaranteed our relegation.

[Mr Angry 1,581]

Of course the players are responsible. But maybe not in the way you mean. Even in yesterday’s win some of them were still making basic errors, not marking, giving the ball away, etc.
 

Might have been nerves with the first win approaching but they haven’t been good enough in the previous games and I don’t see that as being down to the manager.

[Cowboy 216]

"...the team put on a good performance and win, which could indicate that things would improve from here on in, that everyone would feel a bit better about things now a win was under the belt"

The thing is that wasn't "a good performance" in the context of the league we are playing in. It looked like a lower half Championship game at the very best to me. We were hanging on against a Brentford side that looked absolutely awful themselves. I've been hoping that things would turn around under Farke playing decent football, but ironically that agricultural win swung it for me yesterday and I am glad he has gone.

The thing is I don't know where we go from here. The new man is going to have face up to having a squad which, with perhaps two exceptions, is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League, and I'm struggling to think of anyone who will want to come here and be able to do so well next year in the Championship. Perhaps an old school dinosaur is the best option now, at least in the short term.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

One thing about Farke, when he falls out with players there’s no way back for them and they’re shipped out. That hasn’t really been an issue because of the players it’s affected up ‘til now, but when you have a major financial asset like Cantwell apparently frozen out for personal reasons it’s forced Webber to act. We don’t have the financial resources to let Cantwell leave for nought, and we need better performances and results that Daniel has been able to conjure this season.

Also looks like he has already written off Gilmour, and the rest of football seems to think he's a brilliant talent.... seemed to write off Roberts and Edwards early too when we could have done with flair players at times.

Might be a bit of a disagreement also between Farke and Webber on whether Tsoliz is ready?

 

[Monty13 2,345]

Whether you like it or not player power is a direct result of their response to management.

It’s normal to get pockets of discontent in a team that need addressing, but you don’t get full on revolt unless you are doing something wrong. Not saying this happened by the way, just a point around your dismissal of player power.

We have no idea what happened behind the scenes between players and manager but your premise is kind of bizarre to me. Any player discontent equals shameful but strong management is good? Trust is earned and it goes both ways.

Maybe Farke lost that trust, maybe he didn’t. But if he did it’s at least partly on him.

[Uncle Fred 526]

I blame the fans and predominantly the happy clappers this would have happened weeks ago had the happy clappers and awoken and smelt the coffee

the gap would have been minimal and we could have had Eddie Howe as a replacement 

hopefully a lesson learned by the happy clappers 

[Indy 3,360]

The Buendia situation comes to mind regarding Cantwell, Webber stated that when a player doesn’t want to play for the cub he has little option…..so to say Farke is possibly to blame in freezing Cantwell out might be a little short sighted, it looked to me as Farkes comments were trying to protect and guide Cantwell back to training harder. He’s missed a lot of training has our Cantwell.

Of course the players are to blame, but look at our squad, only about 6 can truly say they are anywhere near good enough to be considered premiership players. Aarons, Normann, Pukki, Gibson, Krull & Cantwell. The rest are young and learning, or just never at this level. Funny how poor McLean is yet he’s a regular starter, the first game without Hanley and we win…..tells you a lot.

[kingsway 94]

Players responsible? - Well the squad is probably not good enough to stay up but they were signed up.

 

Were there issues with players? - Evidently with the likes of Cantwell who seems to have a very high opinion of himself but isn't as good as he thinks he is and the club have never had one genuine enquiry for him from another club.  

 

I thought in the last two games the players spirits have been very good it just that they wern't good enough against Leeds. This indicates most of the squad still were responding to Farke. - Farke should have departed after last Sundays game, the club have to show they are not accepting relegation at this stage of the season.

 

Farke was wonderful in the 2nd Division but in the top flight his record was woeful so in a results Business something had to give but I don't think he had lost the players, maybe just some didn't like what he was trying to do?

Edited November 7, 2021 by kingsway

[HertsCanary93 222]

One of the most important parts of being a modern football manager is managing the dressing room.

While Farke is undoubtedly a great coach, I think the jury is really out on how well he could manage egos and strong personalities. He clearly knows how to bring through young players, but there are numerous examples every season of senior players he ultimately forced out the club.

If the players really had turned on him, then he probably had to go - unfortunately it is now part of the game that players hold the power, and if you cannot keep expensive and talented players happy, you won't last. 

[king canary 7,734]

I think when it comes to man management people are focusing on Cantwell but it hasn't just been him. 

I dont remember another manager calling out as many individual players publicly as Farke did in his time here. You can get away with it when you're getting results and the player you're digging out is someone crap like Marley Watkins. Less so when you're bottom of the league and the team is crying out for the player you're freezing out. 

I'd also add in the decisions to banish players under contract so they weren't even in the country (Drmic and Leitner) making them tougher to sell and forcing solid and undisruptive servants like Trybull and Klose to train away from everyone else. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by king canary
Hit send too soon

[Ulfotto 673]

I just think there is pressure to make it look like we are serious about staying in the league. Particularly from the majority of fans and after going up and then down and up again writing off this season and starting again jus feels wrong. With the money in the premier league this could actually be our last chance to establish ourselves in this league. If Newcastle spend like it looks like they are going to that is another who however bad they are are never going to get relegated. There are probably about 12 clubs now who simply never going to get relegated.
 

We need to move forward. Could we have kept Farke sure we could and then be having this discussion again in two years. Let’s try and give it everything this time. I think rolling the dice on a new manager is worth it.

[curious yellow 184]

Player power is real. As much as I love Farke he was never going to run on the pitch and score the winning goal. He never took responsibility when things went wrong. Players took the blame and the penalties were harsh. We were never given explanations, Gilmour was a token selection on the bench, why couldn't he play for us like he played for Scotland.?When a manager loses his ability to motivate he becomes useless. Farke's level is top of the Championship, if we want to go higher we have to change things by building on what he had already achieved. 

[City 2nd 191]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

First off let me say results have been awful and that is a big factor in Farke leaving. We'll never know if DF could have turned it round, but right now, it doesn't matter, he's gone and that is it, but if reports are correct that there were issues behind the scenes, perhaps about players not liking certain stuff, then that puts a new perspective on things.

If player power had anything to do with it, then that is shameful - at the start of his tenure as head coach, DF set his stall out that he would stand for no nonsense from any player while he was at the club and the club backed him on that. What got us where we are is strong management in not putting up with any nonsense from any player.  Have there been ruptions in the camp about Cantwell being left out of the squad recently? Some rumours/reports saying this. But then if DF was dealing with that, then he should have been trusted to get on with it.

All in all, things are never as black and white as they, might seem at first glance, but it was just such awful timing yesterday - the team put on a good performance and win, which could indicate that things would improve from here on in, that everyone would feel a bit better about things now a win was under the belt.

Could Farke have turned it round this season? More important now is the question - can anybody else turn it round? No team has ever come back from such a perilous position in the PL to stay up, so what we may have done is throw away something that we can't replace - a coach who is proven to win championships. Would he have done it again? 

We'll never know. Webber has rolled the dice and time will tell whether he was correct - I hope so, because if it turns out we have thrown away the main reason we have been so successful in building the club up over the last four years and in bringing thorugh yongsters so successfully, then it could be that we will all be thinking yesterday was a historical day for the wrong reasons.

OTBC

There is a difference between strong management and deliberately freezing players out LDC. Let’s face it, Leitner, Trybull, Drmic, and now Cantwell and others like Tzolis, Sorensen etc etc. it works both ways, and it’s my bet the arrogance of Farke in this area lost him his job!

[pete 324]

Welcome back Jacob from wherever you have been. Denmark perhaps like Drmic and Leitner when frozen out.

As regarding recruitment of Tzolis do you really think he was Farke's selection another Webberism.

[TheGunnShow 6,196]

Was Sörensen really frozen out, or was he still struggling with long Covid like Stiepermann? He hardly looks like a player who would cause any trouble at all.

[Mat McGoo 0]

WOW!!! LDC " results have been awful" thats not what you've been saying after each and every loss all season.

[Ken Hairy 3,828]

7 hours ago, lake district canary said:

First off let me say results have been awful and that is a big factor in Farke leaving. We'll never know if DF could have turned it round, but right now, it doesn't matter, he's gone and that is it, but if reports are correct that there were issues behind the scenes, perhaps about players not liking certain stuff, then that puts a new perspective on things.

If player power had anything to do with it, then that is shameful - at the start of his tenure as head coach, DF set his stall out that he would stand for no nonsense from any player while he was at the club and the club backed him on that. What got us where we are is strong management in not putting up with any nonsense from any player.  Have there been ruptions in the camp about Cantwell being left out of the squad recently? Some rumours/reports saying this. But then if DF was dealing with that, then he should have been trusted to get on with it.

All in all, things are never as black and white as they, might seem at first glance, but it was just such awful timing yesterday - the team put on a good performance and win, which could indicate that things would improve from here on in, that everyone would feel a bit better about things now a win was under the belt.

Could Farke have turned it round this season? More important now is the question - can anybody else turn it round? No team has ever come back from such a perilous position in the PL to stay up, so what we may have done is throw away something that we can't replace - a coach who is proven to win championships. Would he have done it again? 

We'll never know. Webber has rolled the dice and time will tell whether he was correct - I hope so, because if it turns out we have thrown away the main reason we have been so successful in building the club up over the last four years and in bringing thorugh yongsters so successfully, then it could be that we will all be thinking yesterday was a historical day for the wrong reasons.

OTBC

I told you the other week he'd clearly lost the dressing room, it's not shameful it happens, those players have a loyalty to the club over any one or more members of the coaching team. 

Of course, you did tell me it was nonsense when I said the was deep issues in the squad. 

[Well b back 3,340]

So the players you defended as world beaters are now the villains.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Of course the players must take some responsibility. But player power is ultimate and although they can play awful they just get dropped, maybe. A coach gets sacked.

But that is the nature of football and they all know it.

[Yobocop 1,120]

10 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

I blame the fans and predominantly the happy clappers this would have happened weeks ago had the happy clappers and awoken and smelt the coffee

the gap would have been minimal and we could have had Eddie Howe as a replacement 

hopefully a lesson learned by the happy clappers 

Nappy crappers 

[Petriix 2,860]

You have to look a little deeper than the possibility that some players were unhappy and consider why that was the case. You also have to take it in the context of what was going on at the club at the time.

If you reflect on the ultimate success of last season you can easily argue that Farke's man-management - particularly the way Cantwell and Buendia were brought back into the team, but others were removed entirely - was highly effective in creating the collective sense of responsibility throughout the squad that made it our most successful (points/results) campaign ever. Farke had a vision and he needed the players to buy into that completely.

This season seems different, not least because Farke's vision seemed muddled. Maybe what we've seen on the pitch since the summer has been consequential of Farke's failure to create a cohesive footballing identity throughout the playing squad. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that any dissent in the dressing room, or perhaps a perceived lack of effort in training, is the result of this.

Of course, it could be that the players were not quick enough to adapt to Farke's new plan. Maybe they weren't quite good enough to carry it out. Or maybe the plan was simply flawed. On the one hand you've got the seemingly undropable players who will do their best to carry out the instructions, run their socks off. On the other, you might have a few questioning voices asking why their position in the formation no longer exists.

Sometimes, once you set out on a particular path, there is little that can be done to alter from the inevitable consequence of the chosen course. Now more than ever I wish that Farke had stuck with the system that worked last season, not least because it had the full backing of the entire squad. Sure, blame the players for failing to step up this year; but ultimately blame Farke for attempting what turned out not to be possible with the players he had at his disposal.