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Dean Coneys boots

Not unlucky. Not clever.

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If we were to pull off a miracle and stay up I actually think we would be very competitive next season. We’re incredibly close now but just lacking that extra bit of quality. If we were to stay up and add that quality to this team who knows how far we could go. Unfortunately it’s looking unlikely though and the fine margins will see us lose these players in the summer 

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28 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

But think what you can do with 3 or 4 years of top flight football if you use the money wisely (unlike us last time). Bournemouth, Palace, Watford, Leicester, Wolves, West Ham - these clubs have been transformed long term by taking their opportunities, even if they may go down at some point. We on the other hand have this never ending cycle of up and down which makes building anything extremely difficult because we are constantly having to adjust our budget year on year.

I agree with that, and that has to be the aim. My concern is some people seem to think we're capable of establishing ourselves as part of the Premier League furniture and that's just simply out of reach without significant external investment.

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Just now, hogesar said:

I agree with that, and that has to be the aim. My concern is some people seem to think we're capable of establishing ourselves as part of the Premier League furniture and that's just simply out of reach without significant external investment.

Don;t disagree which is why I have always been keen on seeking new ownership (even though I accept that many feel differently).

The truth is that no club is "established" permanently in the prem save for about the top 6 or 7 but its a real shame that having gone up with the best squad of players I can recall in terms of potential (most of whom are good enough to play at this level) we look like falling short again. If we stay up we will keep most of these players for next season. When we go down we will lose them. 

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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Don;t disagree which is why I have always been keen on seeking new ownership (even though I accept that many feel differently).

The truth is that no club is "established" permanently in the prem save for about the top 6 or 7 but its a real shame that having gone up with the best squad of players I can recall in terms of potential (most of whom are good enough to play at this level) we look like falling short again. If we stay up we will keep most of these players for next season. When we go down we will lose them. 

The main issue with our ownership is we can never afford to stray too far from a Championship budget as we can't support any losses. Fundamentally any wage budget we run needs to be one we can reduce to £25m odd within two seasons of relegation.

The owners lack of personal wealth isn't really what stops us spending in the Premier League- it is the lack of a financial safety net if we go down that stops us.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

The main issue with our ownership is we can never afford to stray too far from a Championship budget as we can't support any losses. Fundamentally any wage budget we run needs to be one we can reduce to £25m odd within two seasons of relegation.

The owners lack of personal wealth isn't really what stops us spending in the Premier League- it is the lack of a financial safety net if we go down that stops us.

Couldn't we?  Could we not just insert enormous relegation wage cuts, but mitigate this from the players perspective by having a 'considerably less than market value' relegation release clause?

Genuine question, not merely being a contrarian.

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Just now, Orly said:

Couldn't we?  Could we not just insert enormous relegation wage cuts, but mitigate this from the players perspective by having a 'considerably less than market value' relegation release clause?

Genuine question, not merely being a contrarian.

No idea- would depend on what the players were willing to sign.

The other idea would be to not offer longer than 3 year deals in the summer after promotion but again, might miss out on players.

 

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Should we go down which looks the most likely scenario.  Next season will be extremely difficult to replicate the success of 2018/9 to meet the aim of being a top 26 club.  At least four of the current squad will be enticed away with the lure of more PL exposure.  Webber will need to weave his magic to find replacements of the calibre of the free transfer, Spanish potential genius or youthful brilliance.  There certainly doesn't seem to be similar assets in the current academy.  There will need to be significant investment to rebuild the squad which also seems unlikely given the nature of the Board.  I fear we shall struggle in the championship and failing to be that top 26 will see the Webberlution fall away until Delia finds the next genius prepared to work under these financial constraints.  One day it will not happen.

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Agreed king canary. Hence the buck does stop at boardroom. 
 

Perhaps the question is this. Have the current board taken us as far as they can? Are they able to sustain us into the future?

I don’t think so. For me this summer was THE most disappointing moment of over 4 decades following Norwich. Because I really felt we could make a good go of it with just three or four additions. 
 

instead it seems the board saw it as a bonus promotion and took the money and planned for crossed fingers as a strategy. By spending a measly amount they refused to take even a tiny risk and give us a decent go at survival. No doubt due to fear caused by previous poor judgment on Naismith etc.. but anyone who is objective and honest can see this lack of spend has cost us dearly. And for that we deserve some answers 

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

This ignores the fact that all of the "youth" talent currently in our first team were "developed" in the period subsequent to that U18 success and before Webber arrived. Most were brought in by Broughton under the previous acedemy regime. Fair enough Farke may have put them in the first team and given them a chance but it will not be possible to judge the effectiveness or otherwise of the changes that have been made to the academy for a few years yet.

We won it nearly 7 years ago, how many of them players are in our youth team/first team now? My point is our youth players look good and I trust in the future they will be ready for first team and I know this team will give them a a chance!There was little interest in developing our youth players (preciously) Murphys aside, none came through, excellent players like Mcgeehan allowed to leave. We now have Martin, Fitzpatrick and Gilmour all looking like they will make it in a few years and there are two excellent strikers in our U18s. If we were to continue with a moxey method, we’d be still in the champs and very little youth to rely on. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Agreed king canary. Hence the buck does stop at boardroom. 
 

Perhaps the question is this. Have the current board taken us as far as they can? Are they able to sustain us into the future?

I don’t think so. For me this summer was THE most disappointing moment of over 4 decades following Norwich. Because I really felt we could make a good go of it with just three or four additions
 

instead it seems the board saw it as a bonus promotion and took the money and planned for crossed fingers as a strategy. By spending a measly amount they refused to take even a tiny risk and give us a decent go at survival. No doubt due to fear caused by previous poor judgment on Naismith etc.. but anyone who is objective and honest can see this lack of spend has cost us dearly. And for that we deserve some answers 

What were people asking for over the summer?  Competition for Krul (which just shows how wrong you can be), a replacement for Tettey, another striker, a winger and a backup defender were probably the top 5. Which is exactly what we got. Byram is clearly an excellent addition, the other 4 probably not so, although I still think we should give Amadou longer. So it's not that we didn't buy, just that we bought the wrong ones. We could have spent more and bought more players rather than loaning them, but TBH the ability to send them back at the end of the season (or now for Roberts) looks wise in hindsight.

Edited by Nuff Said

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No such thing as an established PL team for the vast majority of clubs. Ask Stoke, West Brom, Swansea, Wigan, Sunderland etc etc (and possibly soon to be Bournemouth).

Having seen the way in which we’ve gone down in the past and the way it’s hampered our finances (who knows exactly how important the sale of Maddison was at the time), I’m proud of the approach now being taken by the club. Are fans not proud too that we’re supporting ourselves through self funding, that we’re bringing through young talent and playing some wonderful football along the way? It’d be great to see us strengthen the squad with some quality signings, but that will cost a lot of money and money the club have been clear about that we just won’t spend. Some great talent has been found and brought in (Buendia, Vrancic, Hernandez, Trybull etc) but finding those sort of gems that would immediately step up to the  PL level was always going to be a bigger ask.

Yes I’d love for us to remain in the Pl for many years to come but I can recognise how great a coach and setup we have. Just watching Luton v Millwall and then 1p5wich v Wycombe I was already so grateful I was then on my way to CR to watch some proper football. Grateful we have a board and sporting director that hasn’t panicked and gone down the route of getting an old has been of a manager who would try and lump our way to survival and then either send us down anyway, leave us starting all over again or else, keep us up but bore us into submission with long ball defensive football. How anyone can question Farke is, quite simply no football fan but an impatient glory hunter.

Theres frustrations, warranted criticism and lots of ups and downs supporting any team but when I look at the bigger picture, the future and the football I get to watch each week, I still count myself lucky with how the club is being run.

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The terms Business Model is very loose in this context. Most business models are based around income or profit . Others are based around the customer , or around the market within which the business operates. Ideally a business model looks to achieve success by being nimble , or entrepreneurial , or getting into a market early. The most documented set of models of recent times are mostly technology based - ranging from the Dot.Com bubble and burst , to the likes of Amazon . 

What makes the Football Clubs position differ to usual business models as a concept, is that a) success isn't measured in profit or income primarily and b) the constraints of NCFC are largely self imposed as the incumbents cannot/ will not put in any further significant monies .

 

For a) above, success is determined by football results and league position. As we speak today, you would say under a) last year  we have been successful by pretty much any measure up until August. We were dreadfully unsuccessful at the turn of the Decade. We now face relegation. Yes there are spin off objectives re Community etc, but without success on the pitch these become increasingly more difficult to deliver. Our "community" work in 2007 was negligible because we were skint. 

for b) it is what it is. 

So the "model" is cloth cutting. Everything done is based solely on constraints of income , and therefore expenditure, as part of the self imposition.  Arguments are aplenty here. If we spend more it doesn't guarantee success. Unfortunately with this argument it doesn't take into account the market.   Yes, one team can be used to exhibit the adversities of spending money (Portsmouth, Wigan, Bolton) but it  doesn't take into account what economists call the "new entrants".  Any other market is acutely aware of new entrants and what they are up to. Norwich choose to ignore them . For every Wigan there is a Crystal Palace. For every Sunderland there is a Wolves. 

Yes there are some examples of clubs not spending much and over achieving but these are few and far between. Huddersfield did for a while. Even Huddersfield had an owner who put far more money in than our incumbents. 

Whilst you can find any number of Clubs to fit your position/ agenda, the facts are that at any given time across Europe, those spending more on wages (the best relative measure used by industry analysts such as PWC or Swiss Ramble) are higher up the division than the others. Last night we watched Palace - Zaha probably earns treble what the highest NCFC player earns. 

The argument is therefore to achieve "success" over even a relatively short period of time you need to adopt the "model" of those around you in the market.

Of course one other thing you can do is to subtly adjust your objectives  - when the current incumbents employed McNally it was to become "established" in the premier league. Now the objective includes the top 6 of the Championship. 

I would argue rather than a business model, it is an operating policy based around limiting criteria, in a market where, by and large, your competitors don't apply the same criteria. I think we saw the results of this this summer in the Window. Please sign for us and we'll pay you prem money , but we can't offer a 4 year contract unless you accept a hefty relegation reduction in money. Would Maupay accept this when Brighton are offering better/ more? No chance. Claude- Maurice ? No. 

Arguments about long term stability are complicated. We lost £38m last year but fortunately we can point to previous operations / individuals to talk that away.  That one of our main incomes was generated by the sale of James Madison - signed by the afore mentioned previous operators - was not dwelt on.  

The board , and their selected operators (Farke, Webber) took us up last year playing an extraordinary style of football. The board are now likely to oversee another relegation. A tweak in the top 26 objective helps here. 

Your view on this is largely predetermined. The facts are what they are, it is how you use myriad examples to support your view. To stay in the Prem for 5 years would cost far more money that NCFC have available. We wont do it under the current operating criteria.

The question is does it matter? 

 

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I think a bit the opposite he has been to successfull in a short time.

He found a head coach now being considered for clubs such as Dortmund. 
He encouraged youth development, which meant playing the youngsters and developing the likes of Maddison.

His scouting methods have now been proved not just here but at other clubs. For those who think he is not very good, Buendia, Pukki, Krul, spring to mind probably £80 m of talent alone.

He wiped out our clubs debts, got rid of the high earners and brought in players on low wages yet still managed promotion - genius I would say.

Finally by signing for 3 years I beleive his biggest challenge is to come next year. He could have signed a smaller extension which would have seen him being able to say they might have got relegated but look at where I moved them onto. This is his challenge. He could maybe persuade everybody to stay ( I think that is highly unlikely ) but because of Webber’s and Farkes success that job is more than difficult. Abraham’s is refusing to sign a contract until Chelsea offer him £180,000 a week so why wouldn’t our players heads turn ?. Have the players given an agreement however that with their wage increases they will stay unless moved on ?. To me however the likely outcome is that ( with the parachute payment ) we will have more money than this club could ever imagine. What we are left with will be as Gooder players as the championship will see. In this scenario Webber will be asked to build an even stronger team and given the budget to do it. That squad will be expected to get promoted and stay in the EPL. 
We were told this model needed 1 player from the youth system being sold for big money every couple of years, bet they never thought they would have 5 in one go ?. 
So to sum up there was only one flaw in our plan, everything happened far to quick. Because of this year however we can already compete even with the big championship clubs for the next 5 years.

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

What were people asking for over the summer?  Competition for Krul (which just shows how wrong you can be), a replacement for Tettey, another striker, a winger and a backup defender were probably the top 5. Which is exactly what we got. Byram is clearly an excellent addition, the other 4 probably not so, although I still think we should give Amadou longer. So it's not that we didn't buy, just that we bought the wrong ones. We could have spent more and bought more players rather than loaning them, but TBH the ability to send them back at the end of the season (or now for Roberts) looks wise in hindsight.

I was gonna say, maybe Amadou etc weren't the right players but we certainly strengthened in the areas people thought we needed to.

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37 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I was gonna say, maybe Amadou etc weren't the right players but we certainly strengthened in the areas people thought we needed to.

We filled in the 'need to have' areas- we need another right back as we only had Aarons, we needed another striker as we only had Pukki and Srebeny and we needed another keeper as we were one injury away from Michael McGovern starting in the Premier League. That is all well and good.

What we didn't do is actually improve the first XI in the slightest- we didn't look for an upgrade on Marco, or a better option out wide than Onel or real competition for Zimmermann/Godfrey. We did at least try in defensive midfield but the fact Amadou can't oust Tettey suggests we failed.

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13 minutes ago, king canary said:

We filled in the 'need to have' areas- we need another right back as we only had Aarons, we needed another striker as we only had Pukki and Srebeny and we needed another keeper as we were one injury away from Michael McGovern starting in the Premier League. That is all well and good.

What we didn't do is actually improve the first XI in the slightest- we didn't look for an upgrade on Marco, or a better option out wide than Onel or real competition for Zimmermann/Godfrey. We did at least try in defensive midfield but the fact Amadou can't oust Tettey suggests we failed.

Yeah. Re Onel we're pretty lucky (or, very good at judging our young players) that Cantwell has been superb as otherwise we'd have been incredibly weak out wide. With Roberts not being successful either, I'm guessing we'll be looking for at least one wide player in Jan.

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5 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Agree entirely with King Canary's summary. I am a fan of Webber and Farke. I simply find it very frustrating that they have been thrown under the bus somewhat by the derisory spend in the summer. It was like asking someone to buy a decent and reliable family car for £300. I am not calling for either of them to go. I am asking serious questions regarding the level of ambition the board shows. Too many give them an easy pass for sentimental reasons. And I have said for some time that I think they are holding the club back these days, even though they saved us in the past. What this season has shown very clearly is that they are bygones of a different era. A board who wish to run the club on a national/local level in an era of global investment. It isn't working and, in terms of finances, we are falling down the ladder very fast. It is all well and good courting investment - but they want it without relinquishing control. And yet they cannot keep us competitive long term I fear without selling off the best talent and hoping for the best. That isn't a long term strategy to bring lasting success. Maintain it and prepare to wave goodbye to Farke, Webber, Buendia, Aarons et al... which is tragic because last summer was a perfect time to add four decent players and cement a mid table finish to cement a place in this division. Instead we are looking at relegation, sales and then a new four year plan no doubt. 

I understand where you're coming from  and I agree that, for as long as Delia is the owner, it will unlikely that we will ever finish much higher than 15th in the PL.

In regards to the summer investment though, I think that there was money to spend, however Webber chose not to/was unable to spend it. Rumours of trying to sign Alex Claude-Maurice (who later signed for Nice for 14m) backs up that theory.

 

"Last summer was a perfect time to add four decent players". I would probably suggest that is talking with the benefit of hindsight. I think SW will be slightly disappointed that his summer signings haven't worked out (yet) but not many people were complaining in the summer. Drmic, Fahramann and Amadou all have experience playing in Europe and they're all decent players. If they had all cost 10 million pounds each, the argument would change from 'lack of investment' to 'wasting money'. Webber's methodology made sense, it just didn't work.

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I think DCB has some valid points in as much as like VAR, they are correct. But it is the way you interpret things.

I doubt anyone could argue that we do not have a squad good enough. At times the team can compete but we cannot really look beyond 14/15 players.

I have repeatedly asked if anyone has a clue who instigated the no spend policy. It isn't a matter of blaming them but merely pointing out that obviously many supporters do not understand why.

And if we do spend in this window, which I doubt, then why now and not earlier.

Personally, I hate the EPL and most things in and attached to it. Personally, I love our style of play. Personally, I am happy that my club will be in the Championship at worst next season. Is it really that important to beat Manure as Middlesborough? Not to me. Just beating the team you are playing with style is enough for me.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

No idea how much to spend and on who...because the investment isn't there. My point precisely. We can't compete at this level. 

So is this less about the fact we did not spend much in the summer and more about wanting the current owners to be replaced by somebody richer?. 

Given the financial constraints we are operating under I cannot see how we could have purchased anybody of a reasonable quality without putting the club in a perilous financial position. My personal opinion is that the self funding model will perpetuate us being a yo yo club, I genuinely cannot see a situation whereby we could become an established Premier League side under that model, not moaning about that fact, it is what it is and it is just my opinion........

Edited by Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB

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11 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Two common claims need squashing because neither are true. 

1. we have been unlucky. I don’t agree. Certainly a few unlucky moments but everyone gets those. Bottom line; we are losing even when we play well. This suggests a lack of quality to compete and a lack of depth in the squad. 

Not unlucky then but ill equipped and this comes down to the risible spend in the summer. Shameful lack of investment meant we were doomed to struggle before a ball was kicked. 
 

2. Our new Webberlution is working. No it isn’t. Certainly a better vision than in recent years by building up youth talent but that wasn’t difficult. however one season of promotion, arguably a season of over achievement, doesn’t prove a work of overall genius. 

And it is very hard to see how we improve from here. By once again looking the gift horse in the mouth and failing to invest wisely the board have ensured any progress is halted. Go down, which now seems all but guaranteed, and we will lose the best of our team and be left with those unable to compete at this level. 

A squandered season then when once more the board have failed to make us competitive at this level. Another opportunity to establish ourselves fast vanishing. 

Not unlucky then nor wiser than most, as teams like Sheff Utd are proving, but frustrated by underinvestment and now reaping the harvest of a very poor summer spend 
 

 

Stupidest post of 2020 so far.
 

It may be an uncomfortable pill to swallow, but to put it simply, it’s not your place -and in fact it’s extremely arrogant of you - to gauge what is and what is not defined as success for someone else’s business.

Have you ever tried to stop your inner negative chatter and consider that maybe this is exactly as Delia & Co have planned?

You are free to like it, or dislike it. But to talk as if you understand the inner operations and the future vision of the club, as though you sit shoulder to shoulder with the owners, qualifies you as stupid.

Please take your in-flight vomit bag somewhere else.

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I think Webber has done a good job but i do feel that Anyone would have done the same get deadwood out and lower the wages ,

the club had Little choice as we had no Money 

we all know Webber's best Work  has been getting Farke here ( That is a success itself )

but i also think we were a little lucky ( like man utd ) we had a lot of good youth that came through together 

Godfrey / Cantwell / Arrons / Lewis £100 million ? worth of talent ??

Now we have money and maybe have to replace these players even maybe Farke that will really be the test of how good webber is 

 

 

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9 hours ago, CirclePoint said:

Stupidest post of 2020 so far.
 

It may be an uncomfortable pill to swallow, but to put it simply, it’s not your place -and in fact it’s extremely arrogant of you - to gauge what is and what is not defined as success for someone else’s business.

Have you ever tried to stop your inner negative chatter and consider that maybe this is exactly as Delia & Co have planned?

You are free to like it, or dislike it. But to talk as if you understand the inner operations and the future vision of the club, as though you sit shoulder to shoulder with the owners, qualifies you as stupid.

Please take your in-flight vomit bag somewhere else.

Well if mine was the stupidest post of 2020, congratulations on topping it with the rudest. Maybe pause and ponder what a fans discussion board is about as the point you make isn’t just rude but a bit odd. Happy new year to you Mr Grumpy! 

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18 hours ago, hogesar said:

we didn't look for an upgrade on Marco

Really? We didn't even look? Dont believe it.

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If the club went and spent £20m on one player, would those of you that paid £50 on membership be pleased or would you question why you had to pay that much for it ?  The club are at least being consistent telling us there’s no money

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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Well if mine was the stupidest post of 2020, congratulations on topping it with the rudest. Maybe pause and ponder what a fans discussion board is about as the point you make isn’t just rude but a bit odd. Happy new year to you Mr Grumpy! 

Agree with you Dean 100%!

In fact the following wording is sheer breathtaking in it's subservience to the owners................................................'but to put it simply, it’s not your place -and in fact it’s extremely arrogant of you - to gauge what is and what is not defined as success for someone else’s business'. The Cook has always said that she is 'merely a custodian of the club for the benefit of the fans who are the true owners' .If that is in fact so then every supporter is absolutely entitled to lodge an opinion on what they believe constitutes success.

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1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

Really? We didn't even look? Dont believe it.

Really confused because I definitely didn't say that! :classic_blink:

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21 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

No such thing as an established PL team for the vast majority of clubs. Ask Stoke, West Brom, Swansea, Wigan, Sunderland etc etc (and possibly soon to be Bournemouth).

Having seen the way in which we’ve gone down in the past and the way it’s hampered our finances (who knows exactly how important the sale of Maddison was at the time), I’m proud of the approach now being taken by the club. Are fans not proud too that we’re supporting ourselves through self funding, that we’re bringing through young talent and playing some wonderful football along the way? It’d be great to see us strengthen the squad with some quality signings, but that will cost a lot of money and money the club have been clear about that we just won’t spend. Some great talent has been found and brought in (Buendia, Vrancic, Hernandez, Trybull etc) but finding those sort of gems that would immediately step up to the  PL level was always going to be a bigger ask.

Yes I’d love for us to remain in the Pl for many years to come but I can recognise how great a coach and setup we have. Just watching Luton v Millwall and then 1p5wich v Wycombe I was already so grateful I was then on my way to CR to watch some proper football. Grateful we have a board and sporting director that hasn’t panicked and gone down the route of getting an old has been of a manager who would try and lump our way to survival and then either send us down anyway, leave us starting all over again or else, keep us up but bore us into submission with long ball defensive football. How anyone can question Farke is, quite simply no football fan but an impatient glory hunter.

Theres frustrations, warranted criticism and lots of ups and downs supporting any team but when I look at the bigger picture, the future and the football I get to watch each week, I still count myself lucky with how the club is being run.

How can you be proud of this business model, your not supporting a bank, your supporting a football club.  A football club that is bottom of the league.  

Norwich fans really are a funny bunch.  

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4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Really confused because I definitely didn't say that! :classic_blink:

Apologies  Hogo, quote from a quote came out wrong. It was king Canary  who said that , will endeavor to correct immediately.  👍 WCC

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