Tzolis

[RobJames 922]

A bit more

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/24336285.fortuna-chief-pledges-push-sign-christos-tzolis/

For those wanting to watch - 1st leg this Thursday, 2nd leg Monday, both 7.30

Let's hope Fortuna fail, leaving Tzolis back with us,

though I expect he'll want to be elsewhere and his goalscoring tally last season will mean we get far more than we would with Fortuna

[Soldier on 290]

We should get a better price if a few bundesliga clubs are looking to sign him.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,797]

Remember when Farke said he had the potential to be world class? Good times

[S_81 1,101]

Wasn’t a price agreed for perm? Looks like they don’t want to honour it, if so.  Or was it just first option? 

[KeiranShikari 1,524]

One of the many wingers on our books more talented than Mr like and subscribe. Maybe the new manager will give him a go if the the price isn't met by Fortuna.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

7 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Remember when Farke said he had the potential to be world class? Good times

No no no, that’s not Pink Un folklore. Farke never wanted him and didn’t rate him. It was Webber who signed him and made Farke say those good things.

[RobJames 922]

15 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Wasn’t a price agreed for perm? Looks like they don’t want to honour it, if so.  Or was it just first option? 

eh ?

Did you ot read the story?

Fortuna are desperate to keep him. The problem for them is in the need to get promoted and so have the money.

Given the season he's had it is us who will be looking for a way out if the figures are to be believed ie far more now than what was originally agreed

[Mason 47 1,923]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

Wasn’t a price agreed for perm? Looks like they don’t want to honour it, if so.  Or was it just first option? 

The Pinkun article previously released said that its a £5m obligation on promotion, becoming optional if they stay in BL2. 

[DanTheMan 3]

Have written off his ever returning to City. But if he did and it worked I would be delighted

[Mello Yello 2,572]

Tzolis is still young and I personally think he'd be more than an asset to us if he returned and playing under a decent manager. ....Reason also being that Knapper is intending lowering the age of the playing squad....'yoof an' eggsuberanse'.....

I've always also personally felt that Tzolis is a more than decent footballer, he's skilful and has a footballing brain and although not a speed merchant his style doesn't have to be....I'd have him back here yesterday....Only if he was made welcome, wanted, selected and not given the cold-shoulder....

[Harry53 229]

On the surface a year ago he didn't look like a good signing, and all the talk about him having great potential with big clubs looking to sign him seemed wrong. 

So here we are and he has found his level and confidence proving that he is a young promising player. So why couldn't we get the best out of him?

He won't want to come back but let's hope we can recover some of our initial outlay. Good luck to him

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

5 minutes ago, Harry53 said:

On the surface a year ago he didn't look like a good signing, and all the talk about him having great potential with big clubs looking to sign him seemed wrong. 

So here we are and he has found his level and confidence proving that he is a young promising player. So why couldn't we get the best out of him?

He won't want to come back but let's hope we can recover some of our initial outlay. Good luck to him

Too young

A lot to learn ... badly thought through signing for the immediate job at hand.

I supported him until the end, many did, but it seems there's something slightly wrong with his personal make up, although I haven't a clue exactly what that might be. At first, I thought it might be an ego matter, but not really now. On a professional level, I am sure that he is always 100% committed and has been for City. His first move abroad and his adjustment wasn't ideal.

As to giving him another chance at Carrow Road, if it becomes possible. I haven't a clue.

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

Almost wonder if he's better playing at number 10. You're not going to get a pressing merchant out of him (Placheta had his detractors but if there was one thing you could never fault him for, he'd always put a good shift in) and he's not getting past Sainz or Rowe - or indeed Sara on a flank either. But there could be a Barnes-shaped hole and an intelligent player who can pop up in there and score a few could be a role for him.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Almost wonder if he's better playing at number 10. You're not going to get a pressing merchant out of him (Placheta had his detractors but if there was one thing you could never fault him for, he'd always put a good shift in) and he's not getting past Sainz or Rowe - or indeed Sara on a flank either. But there could be a Barnes-shaped hole and an intelligent player who can pop up in there and score a few could be a role for him.

He has only ever performed well on the left, cutting in on his right. He isn't a particularly good passer of the ball, and he doesn't have wonderful close control. Certainly not suited a role at 10. 

If Norwich want to play him, it has to be on the left - which means pushing Saniz out of his preferred position.

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

1 minute ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

He has only ever performed well on the left, cutting in on his right. He isn't a particularly good passer of the ball, and he doesn't have wonderful close control. Certainly not suited a role at 10. 

If Norwich want to play him, it has to be on the left - which means pushing Saniz out of his preferred position.

Tricky then, just not sure how he fits. Probably needs a more traditional left-back behind him who doesn't wander up so much. There might be a cogent argument that a more traditional full-back could help us be a bit more solid if we lose the ball, as we know all our full-backs liked a wander up the pitch - and Stacey tends to like bombing up and down pretty relentlessly.

And Sainz shouldn't be moved. If he's like several of our imports who really got it together in their second season, despite a pretty impressive first one, then he's potentially the star of the team right there.

[Google Bot 3,929]

5 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

He isn't a particularly good passer of the ball, and he doesn't have wonderful close control.

I don't know how many Fortuna matches you've watched but I feel the opposite, and I try and watch most that I can.

His strengths (to my eye) are his ability with the ball, range of passing and ability to read.  He's got a very good sense of weight on his passes and touch. Most of his finishes have been with great accuracy, and when he comes into the central areas is where he comes alive.

For me, That was what stuck out during the minutes he played here and why I was so gutted that we repeatedly put him out on loan, which were basically because:

A) Smith wanted to bring his own players like Ramsey and wanted personalities he could bond with.

B) Wagner wanted more experienced players, and finances became tighter.  Again, a coach who looks for personalities.

C) Rowe was easier to build revenue on due to his starting valuation, and came with a great character.

I also believe that his 'fat' physicality puts him in firmly into the stocky, low centre of gravity CAM/SS type such as Rooney/Maradona.  Not saying he's on that level, but they're the easiest examples to pull.

In a few years where he has developed man strength I could see him being very strong in that position, and hard to dispossess.  The big question is step up in levels and how he deals with the additional work rate and dealing with being closed down much quicker and more aggressively. 

Trouble is we've not even invested into growing that side of him over here for the reasons above, and I think his general demeanour does him no favours, whether he matures into a more confident character the more belief that's put into him, only time will show.  He'd need it to play over here.  As Idah is now showing at Celtic.

Obviously, this is all opinions.  Not saying either is right or wrong. 👍

[BobLoz3 609]

15 hours ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

Did you ot read the story?

Fortuna are desperate to keep him. The problem for them is in the need to get promoted and so have the money.

Given the season he's had it is us who will be looking for a way out if the figures are to be believed ie far more now than what was originally agreed

Seems that they can't agree on wages. I imagine we were paying some of his this season. 

[canarybubbles 2,199]

53 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Too young

A lot to learn ... badly thought through signing for the immediate job at hand.

I supported him until the end, many did, but it seems there's something slightly wrong with his personal make up, although I haven't a clue exactly what that might be. At first, I thought it might be an ego matter, but not really now. On a professional level, I am sure that he is always 100% committed and has been for City. His first move abroad and his adjustment wasn't ideal.

As to giving him another chance at Carrow Road, if it becomes possible. I haven't a clue.

I've felt something similar, and like you I wondered if it was ego, but I've seen him interviewed a few times since he went to Dusseldorf and he seems diffident rather than egotistical. But then the penalty incident against Liverpool is hardly the action of someone who's slow to come forward. I can't read him at all on a psychological level. I suspect he's complex and needs a manager who can get the best out of him, as the guy at Dusseldorf seems to be doing.

I suspect his time here was very difficult for him, partly because of the Liverpool incident and being on the naughty step (justifiably). But mostly because Smith had no desire to play or develop him because it might have prevented him getting Ramsey here.

I'm glad no one on here is any longer simply dismissing him as 'crap'.

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

15 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I don't know how many Fortuna matches you've watched but I feel the opposite, and I try and watch most that I can.

His strengths (to my eye) are his ability with the ball, range of passing and ability to read.  He's got a very good sense of weight on his passes and touch. Most of his finishes have been with great accuracy, and when he comes into the central areas is where he comes alive.

For me, That was what stuck out during the minutes he played here and why I was so gutted that we repeatedly put him out on loan, which were basically because:

A) Smith wanted to bring his own players like Ramsey and wanted personalities he could bond with.

B) Wagner wanted more experienced players, and finances became tighter.  Again, a coach who looks for personalities.

C) Rowe was easier to build revenue on due to his starting valuation, and came with a great character.

I also believe that his 'fat' physicality puts him in firmly into the stocky, low centre of gravity CAM/SS type such as Rooney/Maradona.  Not saying he's on that level, but they're the easiest examples to pull.

In a few years where he has developed man strength I could see him being very strong in that position, and hard to dispossess.  The big question is step up in levels and how he deals with the additional work rate and dealing with being closed down much quicker and more aggressively. 

Trouble is we've not even invested into growing that side of him over here for the reasons above, and I think his general demeanour does him no favours, whether he matures into a more confident character the more belief that's put into him, only time will show.  He'd need it to play over here.  As Idah is now showing at Celtic.

Obviously, this is all opinions.  Not saying either is right or wrong. 👍

I watch about 20 of their games this season I imagine, and went out there to watch them 3 times this season. I'm in Dusseldorf a bit as have a few friends that live our there.

Tzolis' biggest strength, which he has shown at Fortuna and PAOK, is when he can collect the ball of the wide left, and has space to run at defences. He is very good at that, and getting into the area to sniff our chances. Greece tried to play his as a striker due to his finishing instinct, but it never really worked out for him. Much of his creativity comes from being able to get to the byline and cut back, or standing up crosses to the far post. He isn't brilliant at the through ball.

When central he often has to have his back to goal, or work in a much more crowded area and this isn't his game. He is a bit of a head down player at times. I think a big hinderance to him playing central is he just doesn't do enough pressing or shadow cover work. Having your striker and central attacking midfielder doing the work to close passing lanes down when teams build from the back is so important now for many teams. I suspect the main reason Wagner moved away from Tzolis is he just doesn't work hard enough at this. I've mentioned before on other threads about Tzolis that he regularly gets in game tellings off for not closing down his man, or not closing providing cover shadow. The Dusseldorf coach has talked about needing to do a lot of tactic work with Tzolis through out the season.

 

[shefcanary 2,950]

The only real issue with Tzolis at the moment is money as I cannot really ever see him adapt to what is required at Norwich. There are at least 3 other players already here who covet the only role that Bethnal as so expertly set out above that Tzolis can perform in.

So, he is on a good (EPL level without relegation clause I suspect) contract at Norwich now and Fortuna D cannot afford to match it even if they get promoted (they will need as much salary as possible to buy players for more important positions to survive  B1).

I thus think his salary expectations means Tzolis will only accept a permanent offer from a Saudi, Far Eastern, US or upper B1 / L1 / LL club. Only the Saudi teams probably can afford to risk such a purchase. Unless of course Tzolis recognises he will only build a long term career by forgoing another year of an EPL salary. Given the fact people feel they cannot see what makes him tick, could he yet surprise us and make that choice? 

Realistically, Norwich are stuck with him for another season, they will once again want to find a club to loan him to who are prepared to pick up a fair amount of his salary, but it is increasingly unlikely they will get any kind of fee for him.

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

52 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

The only real issue with Tzolis at the moment is money as I cannot really ever see him adapt to what is required at Norwich. There are at least 3 other players already here who covet the only role that Bethnal as so expertly set out above that Tzolis can perform in.

So, he is on a good (EPL level without relegation clause I suspect) contract at Norwich now and Fortuna D cannot afford to match it even if they get promoted (they will need as much salary as possible to buy players for more important positions to survive  B1).

I thus think his salary expectations means Tzolis will only accept a permanent offer from a Saudi, Far Eastern, US or upper B1 / L1 / LL club. Only the Saudi teams probably can afford to risk such a purchase. Unless of course Tzolis recognises he will only build a long term career by forgoing another year of an EPL salary. Given the fact people feel they cannot see what makes him tick, could he yet surprise us and make that choice? 

Realistically, Norwich are stuck with him for another season, they will once again want to find a club to loan him to who are prepared to pick up a fair amount of his salary, but it is increasingly unlikely they will get any kind of fee for him.

 

Webber was pretty clear that no one was coming into Norwich unless they agreed a relegation clause in their contract.

I don't suspect Tzolis is on massive money, just more than Dusseldorf can afford, which probably isn't that much as they aren't a particularly wealthy in team. They have thrown everything the can at this season, knowing that if they aren't promoted they will lose their best players in Tanaka and Appelkamp (both of whom I would love to see at Norwich).

Given his excellent season and reported interest from Bundesliga clubs, I suspect Tzolis is in no rush to agree anything with Dusseldorf, knowing that a move to an establish German team is highly possible.

Some of the comments from Dusseldorf have been a little confusing, they state they have an obligation to sign Tzolis if promoted, but also seem to be saying they may not be able to make an agreement with the player on wages. Usually with an obligation to sign, the wages are agreed at the time of the initial loan deal is struck, so did they agree a figure that is now unaffordable? Is Tzolis now saying that even though he agreed that deal, he now wants more? Or did they agree the obligation to a fee, depending on if terms could be agreed with the player later down the line? All very strange.

It may be immaterial though, the relegation/promotion play off nearly always goes the way of the existing Bundesliga team. I think out of the last 15 years the 2. Bundesliga team has only gone up three times. 

[shefcanary 2,950]

52 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Webber was pretty clear that no one was coming into Norwich unless they agreed a relegation clause in their contract.

I don't suspect Tzolis is on massive money, just more than Dusseldorf can afford, which probably isn't that much as they aren't a particularly wealthy in team. They have thrown everything the can at this season, knowing that if they aren't promoted they will lose their best players in Tanaka and Appelkamp (both of whom I would love to see at Norwich).

Given his excellent season and reported interest from Bundesliga clubs, I suspect Tzolis is in no rush to agree anything with Dusseldorf, knowing that a move to an establish German team is highly possible.

Some of the comments from Dusseldorf have been a little confusing, they state they have an obligation to sign Tzolis if promoted, but also seem to be saying they may not be able to make an agreement with the player on wages. Usually with an obligation to sign, the wages are agreed at the time of the initial loan deal is struck, so did they agree a figure that is now unaffordable? Is Tzolis now saying that even though he agreed that deal, he now wants more? Or did they agree the obligation to a fee, depending on if terms could be agreed with the player later down the line? All very strange.

It may be immaterial though, the relegation/promotion play off nearly always goes the way of the existing Bundesliga team. I think out of the last 15 years the 2. Bundesliga team has only gone up three times. 

Thanks Bethnal, perhaps indeed he will yet find a home at a 1.B club.

The issue at Fortuna D I suspect is of Tzolis' agent making, not the club's.

You mentioned that Webber was "clear ... a relegation clause in their contract" but the numbers in the financial statements rarely show this (I tried to do the maths based on headcount in the stats, but was always c.£10m out without assuming more players were still on "full" EPL wages). We anecdotally have heard Pukki and Gibson were already outside of this stipulation, the numbers in the financial statements imply there were others. I can't help thinking Tzolis was one of them, which is why the club was keen to loan him out ahead of others, so another club was at least partly paying towards his salary! 

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

Would love to give tzolis another go here but worst case a bidding war from Germany would be great 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

52 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks Bethnal, perhaps indeed he will yet find a home at a 1.B club.

The issue at Fortuna D I suspect is of Tzolis' agent making, not the club's.

You mentioned that Webber was "clear ... a relegation clause in their contract" but the numbers in the financial statements rarely show this (I tried to do the maths based on headcount in the stats, but was always c.£10m out without assuming more players were still on "full" EPL wages). We anecdotally have heard Pukki and Gibson were already outside of this stipulation, the numbers in the financial statements imply there were others. I can't help thinking Tzolis was one of them, which is why the club was keen to loan him out ahead of others, so another club was at least partly paying towards his salary! 

Pukki didn't have the wage reduction as it was the club activating an option. Options are generally agreed as a continuation on existing terms so when Norwich activated Pukki's it was on his Prem wages rather than any after a clause came into effect. I've never heard a suggestion Gibson didn't have such a clause.

Wages in accounts are hard to really work out as they don't find neatly with season/contract tick overs. Also, bonuses, appearance fees etc are often lumped in with wagess o separating it all out is pretty impossible. Some players will get midseason wage rises upon hitting a certain number of games, nearly every player will have some kind of annual increase written into their contract. Not to mention the complication with loan players.

[NewNestCarrow 290]

31 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Pukki didn't have the wage reduction as it was the club activating an option. Options are generally agreed as a continuation on existing terms so when Norwich activated Pukki's it was on his Prem wages rather than any after a clause came into effect. I've never heard a suggestion Gibson didn't have such a clause.

Wages in accounts are hard to really work out as they don't find neatly with season/contract tick overs. Also, bonuses, appearance fees etc are often lumped in with wagess o separating it all out is pretty impossible. Some players will get midseason wage rises upon hitting a certain number of games, nearly every player will have some kind of annual increase written into their contract. Not to mention the complication with loan players.

That is a good point.

Can I also suggest that the Gibson numbers were being put about at a time when he was being severely criticised for his performances, and such high numbers would have been useful in justifying this negative opinion (e.g. "Gibson is rubbish and he's on x thousand per week")

We do have to realise that, when signing players as a PL club, Norwich are one of Europe's big hitters. This means that getting under-performing players off our books is often really difficult, because no-one else can (or will) match the wages!

[Nuff Said 5,960]

I’d keep him for the “Whoop, whoop, it’s the sound of Tzolis” chant.
 

Otherwise all the (admittedly limited and possibly out of date) evidence suggests his skills don’t suit Championship football, so take £5 million and find another South American bargain.

Edited May 22 by Nuff Said

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Bochum v Dusseldorf, Bundesliga relegation/promition playoffs, Sky Sports Mix tonight...

[canarybubbles 2,199]

On 22/05/2024 at 14:52, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Webber was pretty clear that no one was coming into Norwich unless they agreed a relegation clause in their contract.

I don't suspect Tzolis is on massive money, just more than Dusseldorf can afford, which probably isn't that much as they aren't a particularly wealthy in team. They have thrown everything the can at this season, knowing that if they aren't promoted they will lose their best players in Tanaka and Appelkamp (both of whom I would love to see at Norwich).

Given his excellent season and reported interest from Bundesliga clubs, I suspect Tzolis is in no rush to agree anything with Dusseldorf, knowing that a move to an establish German team is highly possible.

Some of the comments from Dusseldorf have been a little confusing, they state they have an obligation to sign Tzolis if promoted, but also seem to be saying they may not be able to make an agreement with the player on wages. Usually with an obligation to sign, the wages are agreed at the time of the initial loan deal is struck, so did they agree a figure that is now unaffordable? Is Tzolis now saying that even though he agreed that deal, he now wants more? Or did they agree the obligation to a fee, depending on if terms could be agreed with the player later down the line? All very strange.

It may be immaterial though, the relegation/promotion play off nearly always goes the way of the existing Bundesliga team. I think out of the last 15 years the 2. Bundesliga team has only gone up three times. 

I fully expect Dusseldorf to go up. Bochum are on a dreadful run of form, leaking goals for fun, while Dusseldorf are on a great run.

[Google Bot 3,929]

Just scored from the corner the little wizard.  Well... ish! 🙂

Edited May 23 by Google Bot

[canarycop 232]

Tzolis seems to be their main man. Corners, free kicks the lot. We will defo get some money for him. Will be off to a bigger German team I think