Wagner has gone nuclear

[sonyc 5,541]

1 minute ago, daniel_grieff said:

You could blame society, and social media for it, but the feeling last night (especially when the subs were made) was just oh no, theyre doing it again.

At least, thats how I felt.

I'm not blaming society or social media for it but I'm suggesting that we all want stuff instantly. And it's happening at all clubs. I felt exactly the same as you last night might by the way. I thought it was a calamitous decision and was sure it would all end badly. But we seem a much more resilient team these last few weeks. I've posted last night that we post often to express our feelings. And that is fine. That's what fans do isn't it! It's the whole point really. Or we wouldn't bother.

It's what happens next that's important now.

 

[Mello Yello 2,302]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

I thought Gunny should have saved it personally! I would have caught that shot no bother! 😉

...Is this you?....

[Indy 3,314]

2 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

...Is this you?....

Damn yes it is…..and before anyone asks hand size doesn’t carry on to other parts of my anatomy! 😂

[Mason 47 1,391]

13 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I've wondered on reflection whether in fact that ultimately the situation motivated the team? Wagner clearly, 100%, I might even say, has a team of players playing for him. They've shown in the last 2 months how resilient they are. That attitude has to come from not just a few players but the coach himself. It's got to be a huge plus. 

I think the team are actually playing catch up. We lost our key striker and Idah couldn't fill his boots. We lost a few games we shouldn't have and last night (and more recently) you can see much more energy in the team. More desire. They want a play off place. As fans maybe we have to do some catching up (collectively) by trusting Wagner much more? And translating that trust into a much greater active support, at CR but even online! An online community DOES have influence on behaviour and feeling.

I've been thinking about similar. Those people trying to demonstrate that there is a difference between booing Wagner and booing the team are ignoring the link between the two.

This group has come through many obstacles this season to get to a point where we are arguably the form side on the league, and have taken 10 from 15 against playoff sides in the process. I think they're trying to stoke the fire of belief off the back of a bad run, but now our own fans are booing like an Ipswich player just scored his 4th of the afternoon- over a substitution.

My suspicion would be that the players are hurting from the hostile atmosphere and this prompted Wagner to go on the offensive. When we've won at home 4-2 and the biggest talking point is fans booing I can see why there would be a lot of frustration in the players.

Don't get it twisted- I was disappointed in the lineups + subs both last night and at the weekend. However I think some people need to look inward and realise that the ****ty atmosphere is going to become a real detractor to the team very quickly. What would the next Gabriel Sara think about moving here if this is considered the norm?

 

[Ian 1,136]

2 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Don't get it twisted- I was disappointed in the lineups + subs both last night and at the weekend. However I think some people need to look inward and realise that the ****ty atmosphere is going to become a real detractor to the team very quickly. What would the next Gabriel Sara think about moving here if this is considered the norm?

 

Just out of interest, why were you disappointed with the line-up last night? Without Rowe, it's difficult to see how Wagner could pick a more attacking line up.

Edited February 14 by Ian
Last night, not tonight

[daniel_grieff 16]

6 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

However I think some people need to look inward and realise that the ****ty atmosphere is going to become a real detractor to the team very quickly. What would the next Gabriel Sara think about moving here if this is considered the norm?

 

I think this is an important point. To be honest, I think it was the only reason that Smith got sacked. Not because Webber could recognize that the football was never going to get better, but because he accepted that the mood in the stands was never going to get better.

I think this situation is heading in the same direction. You wont be able to sell tickets, or sell the club to prospective signings.

The thing is, though, what do you expect people to do? If they think he's useless, should they just sit on it, for the greater good? That's a level of self-awareness that most football fans (or people in general) just dont have. We're always going to react emotionally, after all, the choice to support a club isnt exactly a logical one.

[Ian 1,136]

1 hour ago, Captain Holt said:

So many precious little darlings on this thread. Of course I'm a supporter if I boo a sub, boo the manager, boo Delia or boo the programme man. In fact, I'm a fan that is passionate enough to care enough to do so. Grow up - saying you're not allowed to boo....

You self-righteous twaats.

Don't disagree with this at all, but surely then people have the right to point out booing when the team is winning 2-1, and then go on to win 4-2, makes you look particularly moronic, as well as petulant and childish?

 

[Mason 47 1,391]

10 minutes ago, Ian said:

Just out of interest, why were you disappointed with the line-up last night? Without Rowe, it's difficult to see how Wagner could pick a more attacking line up.

My personal opinion was that the Coventry setup + performance was the best we've seen since the first 5 games. This built on other positives present from the WBA game. 

We went back Barnesball for QPR, I thought we were barely in the game until that 15 minute burst in which we scored our goals, then the subs killed us. 

I suppose my hope was the contrasting performances would inform change in the lineup. Sorenson I've never been convinced at all of at CB and I felt this was a bonkers thing to do against Watford. Nunez I presumed was being saved for this game and yet 97 minute 34yo Barnes was starting again. I felt like we'd picked a much weaker side that we needed; I'm generally just not a fan of this mutant 4-4-2 we play.

It must also be said that when Barnes popped up with the opener I mentioned to the person I was watching with that I'd never had very good taste anyway.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

46 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I'm not blaming society or social media for it but I'm suggesting that we all want stuff instantly. And it's happening at all clubs. I felt exactly the same as you last night might by the way. I thought it was a calamitous decision and was sure it would all end badly. But we seem a much more resilient team these last few weeks. I've posted last night that we post often to express our feelings. And that is fine. That's what fans do isn't it! It's the whole point really. Or we wouldn't bother.

It's what happens next that's important now.

 

I think the main problem is simply lack of respect for the fact it's the manager who is responsible if it's a wrong decision, not the fans. From start to finish in a game, he's the manager and in-game decisions are his lookout. I suppose to some extent I felt that it could finish up being a repeat of last week as well as Sargent walked off. At the same time, I think fans who prejudge what's going to happen with so much certainty that they feel entitled to angrily object to in-game decisions at the time are overstepping the mark, regardless of how much they 'care'. Nobody can stop these people sounding off, but they're doing the club no good at all and I don't think they should be allowed to simply hide behind 'I'm entitled to my opinion'.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

24 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

My personal opinion was that the Coventry setup + performance was the best we've seen since the first 5 games. This built on other positives present from the WBA game. 

We went back Barnesball for QPR, I thought we were barely in the game until that 15 minute burst in which we scored our goals, then the subs killed us. 

I suppose my hope was the contrasting performances would inform change in the lineup. Sorenson I've never been convinced at all of at CB and I felt this was a bonkers thing to do against Watford. Nunez I presumed was being saved for this game and yet 97 minute 34yo Barnes was starting again. I felt like we'd picked a much weaker side that we needed; I'm generally just not a fan of this mutant 4-4-2 we play.

It must also be said that when Barnes popped up with the opener I mentioned to the person I was watching with that I'd never had very good taste anyway.

I agree. I also think that despite the defeat, the Leeds game was the best we have played for a long time. I have found the reversion to the 4-4-2 very frustrating. 

[Google Bot 3,298]

17 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

It must also be said that when Barnes popped up with the opener I mentioned to the person I was watching with that I'd never had very good taste anyway.

When the players were protesting I'm sure I heard someone say "What's happened, has the keeper handled it?".  I think that summed up what a cluster last night was. 

I've not seen anyone mention the bizarre pass back in the second half too where Gunn disappeared over the boards, I think it was Sainz almost looked like he'd spotted the keeper off the line and went for goal and forgot which way were going.   People were swearing blind that there's a conspiracy afoot lol.

[hogesar 9,722]

3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree. I also think that despite the defeat, the Leeds game was the best we have played for a long time. I have found the reversion to the 4-4-2 very frustrating. 

Because we scored 8 goals and took 7 out of 9 points?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

42 minutes ago, daniel_grieff said:

I think this is an important point. To be honest, I think it was the only reason that Smith got sacked. Not because Webber could recognize that the football was never going to get better, but because he accepted that the mood in the stands was never going to get better.

I think this situation is heading in the same direction. You wont be able to sell tickets, or sell the club to prospective signings.

The thing is, though, what do you expect people to do? If they think he's useless, should they just sit on it, for the greater good? That's a level of self-awareness that most football fans (or people in general) just dont have. We're always going to react emotionally, after all, the choice to support a club isnt exactly a logical one.

Completely agree. The only thing I'd add is the bit I've marked  in bold is why the fans in question should start developing a bit of self-awareness for the benefit of the club. Nobody's perfect, but everybody should at least question themselves and ask themselves if they can do better than they're doing if they really care and aren't simply saying that to excuse themselves.

Edited February 14 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

5 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

When the players were protesting I'm sure I heard someone say "What's happened, has the keeper handled it?".  I think that summed up what a cluster last night was. 

I've not seen anyone mention the bizarre pass back in the second half too where Gunn disappeared over the boards, I think it was Sainz almost looked like he'd spotted the keeper off the line and went for goal and forgot which way were going.   People were swearing blind that there's a conspiracy afoot lol.

That was properly surreal, that was. Definitely don't think the manager can be blamed for that bit of comedy. Gunn did well to get back! 🙂

[Mason 47 1,391]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

When the players were protesting I'm sure I heard someone say "What's happened, has the keeper handled it?".  I think that summed up what a cluster last night was. 

I've not seen anyone mention the bizarre pass back in the second half too where Gunn disappeared over the boards, I think it was Sainz almost looked like he'd spotted the keeper off the line and went for goal and forgot which way were going.   People were swearing blind that there's a conspiracy afoot lol.

And therein lies slightly more of the mystery surrounding our team currently. As Ashton said on co-commentary- I must say I was very impressed with him and would have him there more often than not- all the little odd errors, passes straight out of play & things like your winger trying to score OG of the season will add up. It gives the opposition encouragement, each one making them feel more and more bold whilst making our players and crowd more nervy.

The frustration I believe a lot of people feel is that we don't particularly need to try and lob our own keeper, or have Kenny & Barnes each try and set up a Watford goal. These things seem reasonably avoidable. And yet they continue to happen.

[Google Bot 3,298]

4 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

The frustration I believe a lot of people feel is that we don't particularly need to try and lob our own keeper, or have Kenny & Barnes each try and set up a Watford goal. These things seem reasonably avoidable. And yet they continue to happen.

Totally.  And yet we go from those moments, to sheer brilliance and it's in the back of the net.

I just don't know if the nervous energy from supporters perpetuates onto the field which results in these lapse in focus and poor execution from players.  There's been something in the air for a few seasons now, and it seems incredibly hard to shake

This is why I think it's good that Wagner has come out and we're looking at this being dealt with head on rather than allowing it to simmer in the background.  The message is clear that he's asking for trust and support, but the execution in regards to the 'go home' headline is going to undermine it somewhat.

No matter what gets said I believe 3 Points vs Cardiff will be the biggest mender.   It's akin to makeup sex, really.

[Captain Holt 522]

58 minutes ago, Ian said:

Don't disagree with this at all, but surely then people have the right to point out booing when the team is winning 2-1, and then go on to win 4-2, makes you look particularly moronic, as well as petulant and childish?

 

It doesn’t though. It reflects a long-standing malaise with how this club has been heading for a while. I hope and prey they get the shock of their lives when the renewals are closed. There’ll be 15,000 in as we fight relegation in 2 years and still certain people will be telling us we’re wrong to complain. Wet wipes.

[sonyc 5,541]

50 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think the main problem is simply lack of respect for the fact it's the manager who is responsible if it's a wrong decision, not the fans. From start to finish in a game, he's the manager and in-game decisions are his lookout. I suppose to some extent I felt that it could finish up being a repeat of last week as well as Sargent walked off. At the same time, I think fans who prejudge what's going to happen with so much certainty that they feel entitled to angrily object to in-game decisions at the time are overstepping the mark, regardless of how much they 'care'. Nobody can stop these people sounding off, but they're doing the club no good at all and I don't think they should be allowed to simply hide behind 'I'm entitled to my opinion'.

I think people aren't hiding behind being entitled to their opinions, maybe the opposite is true😉 on these threads. I think too people should have the right to say what they want, free speech and all that. Yet, totally agree that it shows a lack of respect. There probably isn't one game I can think of where I've felt that the subs are either the wrong ones or they're at the wrong time. And that goes back a long time.

I also don't think anyone can win an argument about this but the debate about it can be influenced. 

I think all of this debate actually raises an interesting point about the so- called "Little 'Ol Norwich" doesn't it? Many fans deplore a section of the fan base that is just subservient and docile. Now that there is more impatience and expectation about Norwich City. Maybe that is not a bad thing overall. It demonstrates (albeit maybe there are better ways of demonstrating it) an ambitious support. They won't accept mediocre anymore.

It's a fine balance. I've a hunch that the boo's last night might well be a small turning point for supporters and that next home game the vocal support might become much greater. In an ideal world we will be winning nice and early on. 

Edited February 14 by sonyc

[cambridgeshire canary 6,778]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

And yeah, fair play to any fellow fans who applauded that Watford equaliser as that's a Championship goal of the season candidate right there. Absolutely stonking hit.

If any of our lot had whacked that I reckon CC would have started three threads on it! (Sorry, @cambridgeshire canary)

At least four!

[Jim Smith 2,339]

51 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Because we scored 8 goals and took 7 out of 9 points?

No because we started with Nunez v Cov and we only regained control last night once Wagner brought him on. Ironically the substitution that caused all the booing was one I had less of an issue with than some because we should have been playing that formation from the outset.

Fundamentally I do not like Wagners 4-4-2 formation. Ok we score goals and still have enough to see off the lesser sides. But it just gives us no control over games and leads to spells like the middle third of last nights game where we can’t keep the ball and put ourselves under pressure. Every game becomes an end to end slug fest. Each to their own and it brings entertaining moments but I don’t like the lack of ability to control games. 

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

No, just suggesting that you show empathy towards a guy who's doing his best.   Up to you if you want to take it on board or not.

Why?

It's a job....

Sorry I ****ed up boss and cost the company millions plus I upset all of our fanbase

It's ok Dave, her come have a cuddle

 

 

It's a business, it's ruthless I have no empathy for someone paid millions not delivering 

[repman 635]

I also wonder if we're getting closer to the club announcing that Wagner is to leave at the end of the season. I think most people don't expect him to be here next season but the lingering thought of it clearly gets to people. Would it be better for everyone if they said he was going to go, let's give it a go for the last 15 games and see what happens.

Obviously then we'd end up getting promoted and the debate would start all over again.

[Mutley 79]

As an unconvinced supporter of our head coach I do feel I need to write to support him last night - If you ever been in any leadership position you will know that certain decisions that you make will sometimes have been heavily criticised for no other reason than those doing so do not have the benefit of the reason/facts of the logic for those decisions.

There was a pretty vociferous response to the substitutions of Josh and Onel around us in the south stand when they were made with cries of ‘You don’t know what you’re doing’ being joined in by voices I haven’t heard raise a voice hardly at all. The extent of the dissatisfaction was large and much more than 20% and BTW this 20% figure is about people struggling to see any clear direction and plans forward for the club. I was tempted to boo and join in as I was expecting Josh to be withdrawn at least a little later as they are treating him very carefully but taking off Onel seemed to be ridiculous at the time. Then we hear post match that both requested to come off at half time or soon after and it makes sense.
 

The hard facts facing the coach meant that those substitutions needed to be made early. I suppose he could have brought on Sydney for Josh  but that would have meant that Sara would not have been moved into the ten position from where he suddenly became a better player on the night and of course got the important third goal linking up well with Ashley. We did look better following the substitutions and seemed to have more energy. Particularly I was impressed with Stacey who made some excellent tackles, one leading to the the fourth goal. 
 

Therefore, I’m thankful then that I didn’t give David Wagner the full force of my feelings when Josh and Onel left the field and just sat quietly bemused discussing it with my son animatedly. 

[Monty13 2,241]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

I've been thinking about similar. Those people trying to demonstrate that there is a difference between booing Wagner and booing the team are ignoring the link between the two.

This group has come through many obstacles this season to get to a point where we are arguably the form side on the league, and have taken 10 from 15 against playoff sides in the process. I think they're trying to stoke the fire of belief off the back of a bad run, but now our own fans are booing like an Ipswich player just scored his 4th of the afternoon- over a substitution.

My suspicion would be that the players are hurting from the hostile atmosphere and this prompted Wagner to go on the offensive. When we've won at home 4-2 and the biggest talking point is fans booing I can see why there would be a lot of frustration in the players.

Don't get it twisted- I was disappointed in the lineups + subs both last night and at the weekend. However I think some people need to look inward and realise that the ****ty atmosphere is going to become a real detractor to the team very quickly. What would the next Gabriel Sara think about moving here if this is considered the norm?

 

I’m sure the players are hurting. I’m sure if they are honest the people booing know that even if they are venting against the manager/leadership of the club that it affects the players. The interesting thing is they don’t care.

The club needs to do something to fix it. It’s not going away. I can’t believe how bad the club PR around this issue has been since at least covid. 

Jesus anybody that deals with customers, manages people or even has kids will know you never get anywhere by just telling people they are wrong to feel the way they do. It never works, ever.

[Google Bot 3,298]

23 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

It's a business, it's ruthless I have no empathy for someone paid millions not delivering 

I see.  So, The waitress who you demand brings food now gets empathy and reason on reflection, but not our coach, because "it's a business" and so god damn ruthless ("oo-arrr!") ?

Maybe you could enlighten us with the business targets he's working to and where he's failing to meet them?

I was under the impression that he was placed on a rolling contract to steady the ship post Smith, with the hope that he could get us into the playoffs as the club transitions.  Also, it's my understanding that in regards to performance and targets the club acts as a unified team held together by the sporting director.

But maybe i'm wrong in that assumption? I just watch the football at the end of the day, i'm not a wannabe Alan Sugar.

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

He might engender an even stronger siege mentality in the team. It's clear the players are fighting hard for Wagner, even if some of his tactical moves bewilder some of the fanbase.

And that's always my starting point - are the players going all-in for the manager? I don't think that can be remotely called into question.

[......and Smith must score. 1,355]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Damn yes it is…..and before anyone asks hand size doesn’t carry on to other parts of my anatomy! 😂

 

3 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

...Is this you?....

Not so great when you fancy one of those ‘ Pictures of Lily ‘ relaxing by yourself evenings then ?

Edited February 14 by ......and Smith must score.

[The Real Buh 3,477]

You’re a failure Wagner 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,036]

5 hours ago, Well b back said:

It’s a catch 22 is it not ? If it doesn’t stop, I think we happily kiss goodbye to the playoffs. If Wagner is telling the truth ( why would he lie ) the players are talking about it, and not happy about it. So at the end of the cycle, we don’t make playoffs, players are p***** off, star players leave, club gets blamed for said players leaving.

 

Lets be honest here, stars players will be sold if a decent offer is received, regardless of what is or is not happening on the terraces/whether or not we are in the play offs.

I personally thought those that booed and/or chanted ended up looking daft.

I get that Wagner was interviewed shortly after the game and emotions were running high, but what is done is done now and it was ill advised 

We have now had three attacks on paying supporters by members of the club, that has also got to stop.

We all have to hope our fine form continues................

[Virtual reality 716]

8 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

Then what? That's the problem and the huge thing to get over. That's the problem in the ground. This team and the way it is set up would be ripped apart every week in the prem. But there isn't no answer at the moment.  

Previous teams that got promoted also got ripped apart in the PL. The atmosphere and attitude towards them in the championship campaign leading up to that promotion was fully committed though. I also think we will likely get destroyed if promoted but it isn’t a certainty.