Should Wagner stay?

[canarybubbles 1,941]

If Knapper already has a strong idea of who he wants and the person is available, he should replace Wagner. Unless that person is Lampard, of course 🙂

If he doesn't, I get where the OP is coming from. Our last two managerial appointments have been good examples of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure'. Webber snatched at Smith and then, when he felt he had to get rid of Smith even though he clearly didn't want to, he snatched at Wagner. (Just to note that on neither occasion did Webber seem to have a list of possible replacements at hand, a dereliction of duty if ever there was one.)

So as long as we are nowhere near a relegation struggle, I say Knapper should take his time, assess the players he has and what style of football he wants them to play, and then appoint a manager to suit that style.

Over the last two and a half years we have lurched from strategy to strategy, style to style, and player profile to player profile. Let's go right back to basics and hope that Knapper has a capacity for strategic thinking in footballing terms that his predecessor clearly lacked.

Edited November 12, 2023 by canarybubbles

[For the future 69]

Yes keep David Wagner 

[Unthink road 132]

Because we don't really know what input Webber had on team set up. Now he's gone if Wagner stays will we see anything new on the team set up from Knapper? Or is it a case that Wagner's tactics don't suit these players? 

[Barry Brockes 148]

I would expect Knapper to have seen all our games since he was appointed either on TV or videos or whatever. He might even have attended a few away games without being recognised as his face us not well-known amongst the City away faithful. Therefore, I would hope he can pretty much hit the ground running tomorrow in terms of knowing the capabilities (or lack of) in the squad and having a good idea of a style of play he wants to adopt.

[Big Vince 319]

11 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

Right, here we go, tin hat on and ready for the flack. Before we go any further, I do NOT for one moment think that David Wagner is the manager to take this club forward BUT........

Even the most yellow and green bespectacled fan would have to admit that we are hardly the most exciting prospect for an even half-decent manager with ambition. This is particularly true if, as many continually insist, we have bought rubbish players for the past few seasons and the board won't make any funds available to improve the squad, and will probably have to sell our best players to survive. Grabbing the first out of work manager with any sort of history has not worked before, so why do many seem to think it will work now? 

We have a new sporting director starting on Monday, who we hope will be a great asset to our club going forward. Do we really want to force him into such a major decision this early in his tenure, just so we can slag him off when/if it goes wrong? Our downturn in form seemed to largely coincide with injuries to key players, most of whom are on the way back soon. This division is so tight that a decent run can shoot you back into playoff contention very quickly, at which point the managerial job seems a lot more attractive.

Would it not be better to hang on the Wagner at least until January, which would also give Ben Knapper a better chance to assess the best course of action to move the club forward?

No. Wagner, Delia and Wynnie need to go as a threesome.

[Mason 47 1,396]

I think his relationship has fractured with the club, there is a point once passed that is practically impossible to get back from.

I actually quite like Wagner and to me the ideal solution is he sorts it all out. Unfortunately I can't see it. 

Unless somehow Webber is nefariously affecting tactics and selections and his leaving means Sara & McLean suddenly become defensively aware.

[Samwam27 532]

I can only assume bringing Knappers start date forward was because he wants to act decisively over the manager, else why suddenly bring his appointment forward?

One win really only papers over the cracks, and Wagner was yet again very close to a 5th straight defeat yesterday, bar some luck that throwing everyone on in a last ditch effort actually worked. His starting 11 was poor, yet again tinkering with full backs which aren't the problem.

 I like Wagner, but do actually want Knapper to make  quick decision and bring in his own man. I fear this isn't the Norwich way, and he'll be given more time, and it might not be long before we're losing again, and it will be a wasted opportunity.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,592]

I don't see any chance of promotion this season with or without a new manager. The fight shown away from home, the willingness of the players to work with the manager in spite of recent results against a decent side have allayed my concerns of relegation.

We know we're going to be especially defensively frail in the absence of Gunn and our other injury problems won't be fixed by a new manager.

So overall, I think the club needs to have some managerial options prepared just in case, but I'd rather see the season out and assess how to go forward in the summer break. Otherwise it's just more money wasted on managerial change for no purpose.

Edited November 12, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,251]

IMO he’s not the long term choice and he’s failed more than succeeded since his arrival, so no.

However I actually really like the guy so I’m pleased for him he got a win yesterday if he is being kept. He’s not even close to fully responsible for our current position.

Just seems a bit of a meat shield right now and I feel for him in that respect despite his personal failings.

 

[astro 366]

11 hours ago, daly said:

Why sadly

Clueless

Lucky win today still be in a relegation fight

Three reasons. Firstly, I don’t like to see anybody lose their job, secondly, because he seems a decent person and I wish it could’ve worked out, and lastly, I’m worried that we having a bit of a fast turnover of managers. 

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

No way, one late win doesn’t make up for all the dross we have been served time and time again 

[Drazen Muzinic 1,450]

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

If Knapper already has a strong idea of who he wants and the person is available, he should replace Wagner. Unless that person is Lampard, of course 🙂

If he doesn't, I get where the OP is coming from. Our last two managerial appointments have been good examples of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure'. Webber snatched at Smith and then, when he felt he had to get rid of Smith even though he clearly didn't want to, he snatched at Wagner. (Just to note that on neither occasion did Webber seem to have a list of possible replacements at hand, a dereliction of duty if ever there was one.)

So as long as we are nowhere near a relegation struggle, I say Knapper should take his time, assess the players he has and what style of football he wants them to play, and then appoint a manager to suit that style.

Over the last two and a half years we have lurched from strategy to strategy, style to style, and player profile to player profile. Let's go right back to basics and hope that Knapper has a capacity for strategic thinking in footballing terms that his predecessor clearly lacked.

Good post. That said, I don't think Webber lacked strategic thinking. Far from it. Choosing Farke and sticking with him after the first relegation was very much strategic. Where he went wrong was deciding events later dictated that a different approach was needed. As to Wagner, in the short term it might make sense to keep him, but I am with Monty - he is not the strategic long-term solution.

[Osborne17 11]

I totally agree with @canarybubbles and @PurpleCanary. It doesn't make any sense to get rid of Wagner this season, as long as we don't end up in a relegation battle.

His tactics and his selection choices have been a bit bewildering and I don't agree he's the long term future of the club. But with a lack of funds and a new SD coming in, surely it makes sense to take our time and let Knapper lead a root and branch analysis/transformation of where we are going as a club.

 

 

[Monty13 2,251]

4 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

If Knapper already has a strong idea of who he wants and the person is available, he should replace Wagner. Unless that person is Lampard, of course 🙂

If he doesn't, I get where the OP is coming from. Our last two managerial appointments have been good examples of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure'. Webber snatched at Smith and then, when he felt he had to get rid of Smith even though he clearly didn't want to, he snatched at Wagner. (Just to note that on neither occasion did Webber seem to have a list of possible replacements at hand, a dereliction of duty if ever there was one.)

So as long as we are nowhere near a relegation struggle, I say Knapper should take his time, assess the players he has and what style of football he wants them to play, and then appoint a manager to suit that style.

Over the last two and a half years we have lurched from strategy to strategy, style to style, and player profile to player profile. Let's go right back to basics and hope that Knapper has a capacity for strategic thinking in footballing terms that his predecessor clearly lacked.

I’d still argue a caretaker is the obvious compromise. However if Wagner can scrape together some points why not leave him in charge instead, just feels pretty cold and risky if your planning his replacement in the background.

Would very much hinge on next few results though. He has to beat QPR IMO. That Blackburn game was one of the worst performances I’ve ever seen, only them backing off in the first half and the red card stopped an absolute hammering. That can’t continue while things are worked out.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

39 minutes ago, Osborne17 said:

I totally agree with @canarybubbles and @PurpleCanary. It doesn't make any sense to get rid of Wagner this season, as long as we don't end up in a relegation battle.

His tactics and his selection choices have been a bit bewildering and I don't agree he's the long term future of the club. But with a lack of funds and a new SD coming in, surely it makes sense to take our time and let Knapper lead a root and branch analysis/transformation of where we are going as a club.

 

 

Just to be clear, I haven't gone that far. My pre-Cardiff prediction was that we would have a new head coach by January, and I stick with that.

[shefcanary 2,446]

Knapper, as with any new "boss" taking control, should be sitting down in a 1-2-1 with his direct line reports and having a really deep dive into the current state of things from theor perspective. You would expect Wagner would be given the opportunity of expressing fully and faithfully how he can turn things around. Whether this meets Knapper's own perspective on things is the key as to whether Wagner should survive. It really is a basic 20 questions and Wagner needs to get 18 at least right (yeah, I know, the old 90%) for a follow up. Then if having been asked to reflect on the 2 he got wrong, he needs to set out a way of progressing and working on how he can agree to Knappers view.

So, Wagner should only stay if he can get through those two meetings. Any less on the 90% return and he should be on his way.

[BroadstairsR 2,202]

Yesterday's three points was an unexpected bonus considering the clown(s) in charge of the enterprise.

It gives Ben Knapper something at least to aim for rather than something to avoid (relegation.)

[BroadstairsR 2,202]

6 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Knapper, as with any new "boss" taking control, should be sitting down in a 1-2-1 with his direct line reports and having a really deep dive into the current state of things from theor perspective. You would expect Wagner would be given the opportunity of expressing fully and faithfully how he can turn things around. Whether this meets Knapper's own perspective on things is the key as to whether Wagner should survive. It really is a basic 20 questions and Wagner needs to get 18 at least right (yeah, I know, the old 90%) for a follow up. Then if having been asked to reflect on the 2 he got wrong, he needs to set out a way of progressing and working on how he can agree to Knappers view.

So, Wagner should only stay if he can get through those two meetings. Any less on the 90% return and he should be on his way.

Isobell Oakshott?

Your premise is agreeable and Wagner should indeed be given the opportunity to express his answers, but surely he has hit enough depths already in order to be considered for reprieve?

[Big Vince 319]

3 hours ago, astro said:

Three reasons. Firstly, I don’t like to see anybody lose their job, secondly, because he seems a decent person and I wish it could’ve worked out, and lastly, I’m worried that we having a bit of a fast turnover of managers. 

We're not in Gino Pozzo territory yet.

[shefcanary 2,446]

41 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

 but surely he has hit enough depths already in order to be considered for reprieve?

I'm a little on the side of Webber's influence having been much greater on team structure and selection than other's may believe. Without his influence, let's see if that frees up Wagner?

[astro 366]

12 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

We're not in Gino Pozzo territory yet.

Thankfully!!

[stratton canary 134]

No got to go, it's no good just going round in circles like "nice little Norwich" always do, complete change needed from top to bottom, yes it will take time, but now is the time. 

1972 was my first game I've seen good & ****e times, but we have never looked forward or moved forward. 

So now is the time for a complete change not maybe in 3 years time, start now & let's hear something from you Mr Attanasio! Or will you bury your head in the sand too? 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

We are in a maelstrom of confusion and uncertainty at the moment and we need some stability. I wish that included the coach but just don't see what his style or tactic is. Goodness know what the players must think.

Despite the result, we were awful for lots of yesterdays game. The selection of Placheta at full back shows either desperation or guessing.

He has to go.

[Robert N. LiM 4,479]

Good OP and some interesting comments here. It's an unusually difficult decision given the change of SD. My take:

First, I disagree with this:

17 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

Even the most yellow and green bespectacled fan would have to admit that we are hardly the most exciting prospect for an even half-decent manager with ambition.

While we have undoubtedly lost our way, we remain a big club at this level with a loyal fanbase, an outstanding academy and training set-up. Lots of recent promotions to the PL and a new minority owner with access to cash to help us go beyond the 'self-funding' model. The very fact we're underachieving at the moment makes us a very good prospect for an ambitious coach.

 

But I very much agree with this:

17 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

We have a new sporting director starting on Monday, who we hope will be a great asset to our club going forward. Do we really want to force him into such a major decision this early in his tenure,

Yesterday's win has definitely bought Wagner and Knapper a bit of breathing space in that regard. I'm sure Knapper would like to take some time before deciding whether Wagner is the right man for the short term, let alone the medium/long term.

But, if this is true:

17 hours ago, Chichcan said:

I'd have thought he already knows who he wants and it won't just be some unemployed manager, but a coach somewhere (maybe Arsenal) that has what Knapper's looking for. 

then perhaps Knapper doesn't feel he needs the time. As @Sooty57says:

17 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

If that is indeed the case, I have absolutely no problem with Wagner's departure. I just don't want fan disquiet to force the new guy into a position where he feels obliged to make a knee-jerk appointment.

And, this is an extremely good point:

16 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

You can’t let this one result cloud judgement. A result we were very close to losing, in a very similar manner to the last 5 defeats.

Said this before, but it seems to me that Wagner's problem is that we almost always need to score three to win a game. The fact that we somehow did this yesterday (with the aid of some fairly dodgy Cardiff defending, including an own goal), doesn't alter the fact that we are far too easy to play against, and, more worryingly, that Wagner doesn't even seem to recognise it, let alone address it.

Of course, a win will do wonders for the confidence of the squad, and the arrival of the new SD, coupled with the international break, gives a nice sense of a new start without having to sack the coach. But I don't really think Wagner answered any questions yesterday: in fact, with the bizarre selection of Płacheta at left-back, you might even say he raised more concerns. Does anyone think he'll be here this time next year? And if so, why are we not moving on now?

Not really sure what my conclusion is. I guess the best-case scenario for the club is that Wagner does well enough over the next few games to allow Knapper to take his time thinking about a new coach, or that Knapper already knows who he wants. The worst-case scenario is that Wagner has bought himself a bit more time, but doesn't do anything meaningful with it, and we are having the same conversation in a month, possibly after a traumatic afternoon down the road...

Edited November 12, 2023 by Robert N. LiM
typo

[RobJames 890]

18 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

If you read my post correctly you will realise that I am merely repeating some of the things others are saying, not making accusations myself.

Curious then that you have now removed that comment

"the board won't make any funds available""

[hertfordyellow 460]

No his record in his last three roles have been very similar and not very good. Simply can’t adapt. The team he put out yesterday was bonkers. Needs to be gone over the international break.

It’s a non argument that we should keep him because no one else would want the job. I don’t think that is the case anyway. We are in a relegation fight with this manager, we simply need a clear change even if we have to go down a short term solution.

[baldy09 160]

The real trouble is we got a Dads army team who legs are already on the beach and you cant tell me anything attitude ! Wagner got very little choice who to pick because we are lacking in depth and quality

[Capt. Pants 4,276]

Well if we are going to sack him it really needs to be tomorrow in order to maximise the time over the international break to find a replacement. 

I still think Wagner will be used as a caretaker manager until a replacement becomes available or the atmosphere is so bad at Carrow Rd. Webber leaving early suggests to me the club is happy to muddle on for the time being.

 

[Big Vince 319]

4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Well if we are going to sack him it really needs to be tomorrow in order to maximise the time over the international break to find a replacement. 

I still think Wagner will be used as a caretaker manager until a replacement becomes available or the atmosphere is so bad at Carrow Rd. Webber leaving early suggests to me the club is happy to muddle on for the time being.

 

Muddle is a common side effect of octogenarianism.