Ben Knapper - New Sporting Director

[Big O 225]

10 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

I share this thought. 

The structure of the club right now is a shambles, and I see Ben K as a guy that works best in an integrated team. We need more than just Ben K. We need a chairperson, and one or two more football people behind the scenes.

I get the sense that he is exactly the type of data driven, connected individual that our potential new owner wants in place for this role. I would not be surprised at all if a couple of additional roles came in too. 

[Jim Smith 2,322]

10 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Possibly, although if we had been 9 pts clear of 3rd with a game in hand then he would also have to hit the ground running in fear of ballsing it up.

The circumstances are such It's a wonderful opportunity for him to rebuild NCFC. In some ways the worse things are here the better he will look - if he gets it right.

Agree with this. Despite the current doom we are only 6 points off the playoffs. In the championship, over half a season, that is nothing. A change of coach and a decent addition or two in January then things could change quite quickly, especially with Hanley, Barnes and Sargent back 

[nutty nigel 7,539]

This thread is recognising the changes that the other threads seem to be denying...

[Robert N. LiM 4,392]

8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Agree with this. Despite the current doom we are only 6 points off the playoffs. In the championship, over half a season, that is nothing. A change of coach and a decent addition or two in January then things could change quite quickly, especially with Hanley, Barnes and Sargent back 

Exactly. Personally I think we'll be just short of the playoffs, but I'm not sure I care very much given that this is not remotely a PL-ready squad. Obviously this might come back to bite me, but I'll be astonished if we're anywhere near a relegation battle as lots seem to fear. The frustrating thing about Wagner is that this squad should be doing better than it currently is. But looked at another way, that's a big opportunity for a new SD and new coach.

[daly 505]

Apart from a couple of games at CR this season we have been abysmal 

This team is light years away from playoffs

If by any luck we reached the playoffs cannot see us beating any of the top 10 on a home and away basis

[Midlands Yellow 3,995]

5 minutes ago, daly said:

Apart from a couple of games at CR this season we have been abysmal 

This team is light years away from playoffs

If by any luck we reached the playoffs cannot see us beating any of the top 10 on a home and away basis

Don’t panic, we ain’t getting anywhere near the Playoffs. 

[Jim Smith 2,322]

45 minutes ago, daly said:

Apart from a couple of games at CR this season we have been abysmal 

This team is light years away from playoffs

If by any luck we reached the playoffs cannot see us beating any of the top 10 on a home and away basis

We aren’t though and we haven’t been. You forget how poor this division is. We’ve been dominant in most games at home and to be honest should have won at Swansea and Cov and not lost at Rotherham. If we pick up a bit it’s very possible we can still challenge for top 6,

[yellowrider120 765]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We aren’t though and we haven’t been. You forget how poor this division is. We’ve been dominant in most games at home and to be honest should have won at Swansea and Cov and not lost at Rotherham. If we pick up a bit it’s very possible we can still challenge for top 6,

Ah, the old 'should have'!! What was the reality though? A solitary, miserable point from said fixtures. Rotherham have still managed only that one win and are firmly in the bottom three. A very serious improvement is required (on a sustained basis) to get us into the play offs.

[Sufyellow 222]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

We aren’t though and we haven’t been. You forget how poor this division is. We’ve been dominant in most games at home and to be honest should have won at Swansea and Cov and not lost at Rotherham. If we pick up a bit it’s very possible we can still challenge for top 6,

How did you work out we should of beat Coventry? We were lucky to get a point.  

[Canaries north 151]

It does worry me that he is advertised as a data man. I know its the fashion at the moment but haven't we tried to go down the data route already. I hope his use of data is better than the data team Webber is supposed to have set up with the help of some data driven Americans. If data is the way we have been doing our business since the Americans started getting involved then I worry. I could have told you 30+ year olds who haven't played many games for a year or 2 being asked to play Saturday,  Wednesday,  Saturday is not going to work and I'm an idiot who can't work a spreadsheet. 

[BroadstairsR 2,178]

6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Agree with this. Despite the current doom we are only 6 points off the playoffs. In the championship, over half a season, that is nothing. A change of coach and a decent addition or two in January then things could change quite quickly, especially with Hanley, Barnes and Sargent back 

I cling to that hope as well, but the current rate of point wasting is alarming and puts so much more pressure on the chances of a meaningful  revival when the big guns return

In sum, it is difficult to hang on to hopes of a play-off place when the present form is that of a relegation threatened team.

I cannot see it improving under Wagner. He's a chronic loser who talks a much better game than he fabricates.

He should have been long gone ago, imo. His Summer strategy which led us to be convinced that such signings would at least make us a team hard to beat has unfolded before our very eyes and is now seen for the scam that it really was.

It is always a sign that a manager has lost it when the team line up changes weekly. It's hokey-cokey selection --- in out, in out, turn it all about. Placheta, Gibbs, Fassnachtt, Nunez, Springett all starters one week and out the following. Just grasping at straws hoping for a winning formula. That's not professional management, that's desperate management. All added to by the fact that he keeps the weakest link ... the defence intact and fails to notice that the undermanned/badly structured midfield allows more tactically aware managers to easily turn a game ...... as Daniel Farke did for one.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Big O 225]

5 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

I cling to that hope as well, but the current rate of point wasting is alarming and puts so much more pressure on the chances of a meaningful  revival when the big guns return

In sum, it is difficult to hang on to hopes of a play-off place when the present form is that of a relegation threatened team.

I cannot see it improving under Wagner. He's a chronic loser who talks a much better game than he fabricates.

He should have been long gone ago, imo. His Summer strategy which led us to be convinced that such signings would at least make us a team hard to beat has unfolded before our very eyes and is now seen for the scam that it really was.

It is always a sign that a manager has lost it when the team line up changes weekly. It's hokey-cokey selection --- in out, in out, turn it all about. Placheta, Gibbs, Fassnachtt, Nunez, Springett all starters one week and out the following. Just grasping at straws hoping for a winning formula. That's not professional management, that's desperate management. All added to by the fact that he keeps the weakest link ... the defence intact and fails to notice that the undermanned/badly structured midfield allows more tactically aware managers to easily turn a game ...... as Daniel Farke did for one.

 

 

Oddly, the points you make here are one of the reasons I retain a level of optimism.

famous last words maybe but I don’t think it would take all that much to turn us into a decent side and if we get the right manager it could change.

The other reason to be positive is that I don’t think we have one loan player in either. Of course these can be short term but would undoubtedly be an avenue to shore up our weaknesses - centre half, defensive midfield, striker if need be and I’d expect Knapper to have a few contacts to bring these in. 
 

[S_81 803]

14 minutes ago, Big O said:

Oddly, the points you make here are one of the reasons I retain a level of optimism.

famous last words maybe but I don’t think it would take all that much to turn us into a decent side and if we get the right manager it could change.

The other reason to be positive is that I don’t think we have one loan player in either. Of course these can be short term but would undoubtedly be an avenue to shore up our weaknesses - centre half, defensive midfield, striker if need be and I’d expect Knapper to have a few contacts to bring these in. 
 

In this league the right manager can make a big difference. If Wagner is shown the door and we make the right hire we are still in touching distance of the play offs. But Wagner has to leave immediately. I think by the time we actually show him the door (after Ipswich away) it will be too late. 
 

I don’t think this team Is capable of winning the play offs anyhow. And certainly not even winning a couple of games in the top flight. But obviously the money we would get for going up would allow for another reset. It’s why it’s mad we are wasting the chance by keeping Wagner in post 

[FCC 76]

If previous promotion winning teams couldn’t compete in the Premier, the thought of this lot going up truly is a nightmare scenario.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

11 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Exactly. Personally I think we'll be just short of the playoffs, but I'm not sure I care very much given that this is not remotely a PL-ready squad. Obviously this might come back to bite me, but I'll be astonished if we're anywhere near a relegation battle as lots seem to fear. The frustrating thing about Wagner is that this squad should be doing better than it currently is. But looked at another way, that's a big opportunity for a new SD and new coach.

Our form is certainly relegation form. Whenever you have the worst defence in the league you’re going to be in trouble. However if that gets out right we do score goals. So if we manage to keep clean sheets we will get points. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

6 minutes ago, FCC said:

If previous promotion winning teams couldn’t compete in the Premier, the thought of this lot going up truly is a nightmare scenario.

I will buy you a loaded hot dog in the Barclay at the end of the season if this team gets close to promotion. I feel my money and your worries will be fine though. 

[essex canary 497]

46 minutes ago, S_81 said:

 But Wagner has to leave immediately. I think by the time we actually show him the door (after Ipswich away) it will be too late. 
 

 

Oh dear! You have forgotten about the spirit of Christmas which is vital to the timing of Wagner's payoff.

[Capt. Pants 4,250]

7 hours ago, Canaries north said:

It does worry me that he is advertised as a data man. I know its the fashion at the moment but haven't we tried to go down the data route already. I hope his use of data is better than the data team Webber is supposed to have set up with the help of some data driven Americans. If data is the way we have been doing our business since the Americans started getting involved then I worry. I could have told you 30+ year olds who haven't played many games for a year or 2 being asked to play Saturday,  Wednesday,  Saturday is not going to work and I'm an idiot who can't work a spreadsheet. 

That's a cracking point to be fair.

Time will tell if Sainz actually delivers anything and we might be pleasantly surprised yet, but he needs to switch on quickly now.

The trouble is with a data based approach, everyone is doing it now. Hopefully Knapper will bring a renewed focus and we find those hidden gems rather than 30 year old coal.

 

[duke63 542]

53 minutes ago, FCC said:

If previous promotion winning teams couldn’t compete in the Premier, the thought of this lot going up truly is a nightmare scenario.

That's true of whoever wins this League.

Look at Burnley - walked the league last year, can't buy a win in the EPL.

The way to win the league and stay in the EPL isn't the one that Burnley, ourselves etc have chosen in recent seasons.

It will be interesting to see if Leicester's chosen route has more success next year.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,392]

57 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Our form is certainly relegation form. Whenever you have the worst defence in the league you’re going to be in trouble. However if that gets out right we do score goals. So if we manage to keep clean sheets we will get points. 

We might have the worst defensive record. But I can't believe we have the worst back four, or anything like it. Personally I'm convinced it's a structural problem in the team, which a decent coach should be able to sort out. If Wagner can't do it, they'll have to bring someone else in. It might come at the cost of us being a bit less of a threat up front, but you're absolutely right we can't go on conceding two (or more) goals a game.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

39 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

We might have the worst defensive record. But I can't believe we have the worst back four, or anything like it. Personally I'm convinced it's a structural problem in the team, which a decent coach should be able to sort out. If Wagner can't do it, they'll have to bring someone else in. It might come at the cost of us being a bit less of a threat up front, but you're absolutely right we can't go on conceding two (or more) goals a game.

Surely if we have the worst defensive record in the league by default you have the worst defence though. They might be individually capable but they play as a unit. So we might have better players than other sides but if they aren’t performing as a unit it’s not really a solid argument. 
 

absolutely agree on the other points though. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by By Hook or Ian crook

[hogesar 9,690]

12 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

We aren’t though and we haven’t been. You forget how poor this division is. We’ve been dominant in most games at home and to be honest should have won at Swansea and Cov and not lost at Rotherham. If we pick up a bit it’s very possible we can still challenge for top 6,

Jim, when you're the optimistic one on here you know there's trouble

[kenfoggo 247]

Jim, if you think that we can challenge for a top six finish then you probably still believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Yeti, the Loch Ness Monster and copper bracelets for joint pain. A quick dose of reality will get you to acknowledge that we are more likely to be in a relegation battle , mid table at best.

[shefcanary 2,410]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

That's true of whoever wins this League.

Look at Burnley - walked the league last year, can't buy a win in the EPL.

The way to win the league and stay in the EPL isn't the one that Burnley, ourselves etc have chosen in recent seasons.

It will be interesting to see if Leicester's chosen route has more success next year.

 

I think the key differences between Leicester and Burnley are:

• the latter got promoted with half the side being loanees following a huge exodus in the squad after relegation, most of the loanees not staying at the club on promotion so most of their resource was replacement, not adding quality. Leicester reshuffled on relegation but focussed on the periphery of the squad, not the core so there wasn't as significant an exodus. They appear to be not as reliant on loans and potentially have more scope for adding quality to the squad on promotion; and
• the latter played a consistent type of "flat track bully" style of play, with an enthusiastic young squad, whereas Leicester are playing more adaptable styles of play dependent on who they are playing with a degree of experience retained. This is a bit like the approach Webber has tried to instil on our current set up but without the quality there to start with, and there has definitely been a failure to add to that quality whilst focussing on experience. 

[Gordon Bennett 786]

11 minutes ago, kenfoggo said:

Jim, if you think that we can challenge for a top six finish then you probably still believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Yeti, the Loch Ness Monster and copper bracelets for joint pain. A quick dose of reality will get you to acknowledge that we are more likely to be in a relegation battle , mid table at best.

The point is that the margins in this league are very fine indeed. I think Jim's original post said that if we can get the right manager in and one or two good signings in January then we could challenge, there are enough points and games left. And that's absolutely right. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,392]

34 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Surely if we have the worst defensive record in the league by default you have the worst defence though.

Depends what you mean by 'defence' - just the four guys who play at the back, or the defensive structure of the team as a whole.

My argument is that the reason we concede so many goals is that we are really vulnerable to the counter attack because we have so many players pushed forward when we attack (including both full backs) and no defensively minded midfielder in the team. Sure, there have been some individual mistakes by members of the back four, but I think we defend poorly as a whole team. I don't think 'the defence', ie the back four, is the main problem. I think it's a coaching issue and the way the team is set up as a whole, which is why Wagner is on very thin ice.

Obviously it's all about opinions and you might disagree, but I hope this clarifies what I meant.

[Indy 3,301]

9 hours ago, Canaries north said:

It does worry me that he is advertised as a data man. I know its the fashion at the moment but haven't we tried to go down the data route already. I hope his use of data is better than the data team Webber is supposed to have set up with the help of some data driven Americans. If data is the way we have been doing our business since the Americans started getting involved then I worry. I could have told you 30+ year olds who haven't played many games for a year or 2 being asked to play Saturday,  Wednesday,  Saturday is not going to work and I'm an idiot who can't work a spreadsheet. 

Said this from the start, yes experience is required but overloading it with old journeymen doesn’t work, we’ve been here before and it lead to League1.

I think a Dataman is a good thing as long as the right data and measures are used for the analyse…also the correct team from Knapper down can and need to be installed with his vision being bought by all! One bad egg can derail any chance of success.

Wish we had had a fresh start from board level down in May, would have given the new set up the summer to assess and bring in the players needed instead we allowed an unmotivated and unfocused SD the chance to royally screw the club right up, paying big wages on old has beens and a old never has been striker on!

[Old Shuck 183]

14 hours ago, Big O said:

I get the sense that he is exactly the type of data driven, connected individual that our potential new owner wants in place for this role. I would not be surprised at all if a couple of additional roles came in too. 

Yes, this. He'll be bringing in more than, when the time comes, a new head coach. Would expect the data and scouting teams to have a major reboot as well. 

[repman 635]

12 hours ago, Canaries north said:

It does worry me that he is advertised as a data man. I know its the fashion at the moment but haven't we tried to go down the data route already. I hope his use of data is better than the data team Webber is supposed to have set up with the help of some data driven Americans. If data is the way we have been doing our business since the Americans started getting involved then I worry. I could have told you 30+ year olds who haven't played many games for a year or 2 being asked to play Saturday,  Wednesday,  Saturday is not going to work and I'm an idiot who can't work a spreadsheet. 

We certainly were data heavy when Webber first joined. The transfer business this summer was pretty much the opposite of what any 'smart' club would do. Our failure on the data side imo is that we haven't kept up with the times, you don't uncover bargains like you did 5 years ago. 

The two big issues we've had is that we've not recruited a top quality head coach. You could easily use data to make your decision (it wouldn't have turned out Smith or Wagner that's for sure). The other issue is our signings & play style don't match up at all, this is partly a result of the first issue as it's hard to recruit for coaches who can't truly define their style of play. Tzolis, for example, was/is a really good player (especially for his age). The reason his move didn't work is that his skillset is suited to playing for an attacking team, where he can get the ball nearer to the box and do damage. He's getting that this year on loan and he's thriving. Look at Brentford when they got promoted with us, they played a back 3 with big CB's, a midfield full of players good at breaking up the play and up front would be Toney and Mbeumo. Toney wins headers at a higher rate than most strikers and Mbeumo is rapid. They'd recruited perfectly for a style to keep them in the PL. They're also one of the best teams in terms of set pieces too.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

14 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

How did you work out we should have beat Coventry? We were lucky to get a point.  

We lost both of those games due to the coaches inept tactical decisions. In both we were controlling them before he worked his magic. Ok at Swansea we were only drawing but we were by far the better side til Wagner turned it into an end to end slug fest by relinquishing control of the midfield.

I thought both Cov and Swansea looked crap to be honest. Boro were not much better. This team playing at the level it is capable of can beat any of these sides. Sadly we’ve not been doing that for a while now.