The reality of the situation.

[Captain Holt 522]

I am a negative person. You will not be shocked to read that if you have read one of my posts in the last twelve months. I need to say the following:

The 40 minutes we had last night in the third period are the most exciting signs I've seen since the Coventry game, despite the youthful Toulouse side we were up against.

We had creativity, nous, flair and accuracy with what we were trying to do. It left me thinking that with Sara, Nunez and most interestingly, Tzolis (cutting in from the left to fill the half space pockets and positively impact the game) we might be on to something, I hope they don't sell Tzolis - I'm convinced there is a player in there. 

We look as if we should be as defensively solid as any Norwich side I can remember in recent history. I alluded to in the match thread. Not many Championship clubs would baulk at the idea of Duffy, Gibson and Hanley being the senior centre backs in the squad.

Kellen Fisher is giving off serious 18/19 Max Aarons vibes and looks oven ready. 

Sargent will score goals IF he has enough chances created for him. He is a decent finisher - not on the Teemu level but he will score different goals - accurate, meaningful crossing is a must. I really, desperately want Adam Idah to do well. I hope one goes in off his **** against Hull and he goes on to score 20.

If Aarons, Rashica and Omobamidele do leave - we will re-invest and dare I say be stronger for it (if our boy Stu spends it well...this window looks to be one of his hits so far - to his credit).

Again, I am a negative person - no problems admitting that. But, I'm willing to give everyone a chance. I do fear the cauldron of Carrow Road is ready to bubble over and a few setbacks early doors should see to that. But this gobby internet mouth will try his hardest not to be a bubbler.

Never mind the f'ing danger.

Captain

 

--------------

@littleyellowbirdie

@hogesar

From where can I collect my badge?

Edited July 26, 2023 by Captain Holt

[lake district canary 4,544]

Well said.

[TheGunnShow 5,993]

The thing that's most intriguing for me is the combination of extra steel in the free signings and the extra year's seasoning players like Gibbs, Nunez, Sara and Omobamidele had. If those four move on and have acclimatised/become accustomed to the Championship we should be much more competitive down the spine of the pitch when other senior players (McLean, Hanley etc) are not around.

Agree with your view on Sargent and I agree he poses a more varied threat than Teemu, although not as dangerous in terms of reliably putting good chances away. Not as clinical with his finishing by any means, but he's good in the air and he can improvise. And FFS, DON'T PUT HIM ON A BLOODY WING, AND THE SAME APPLIES TO IDAH!

More than anything, I just want to see a team that can keep the pace and pressure up for prolonged periods whilst being defensively diligent. I'll take a shaky start if I can see the signs of that being in place.

[Walcombe canary 69]

Thank you - Fingers crossed - OTBC

[Number9 272]

As you said, we looked really good for the 40 mins when Toulouse played their kids.

[Captain Holt 522]

1 minute ago, Number9 said:

As you said, we looked really good for the 40 mins when Toulouse played their kids.

I am shocked, offended and appalled by your sarcastic negativity in my born-again positive thread. 

[Old Shuck 188]

Yes, concur with all of that.

One of THE essential assets for any player or team in the game today is to have pace-hence this preference of how coaches now like to convert young footballers into athletes as much as they like converting young athletes into footballers.

We have it but we have that steel, as you said, running through the side now. Not neccessarily a nasty streak or a playing squad rich in yellow and red but players who won't be easily bullied or knocked off the ball. Duffy and Barnes are units, unquestionably & they have the nous to know exactly when and how to use their physical presence. It augers well.

Fisher is looking quite something already, if he can come from Bromley and usurp, in Wagner's thinking, Bali, who has played getting on for 70 league and cup games in his career already, then he must be, potentially, one of our best signings for a while, someone who might be a first team regular before we know it. I suspect any requests to take him on loan now will be met with a firm refusal.

Stacey looks a great acquisition as well. Still feel a bit uneasy about left back options though.

I still think we're looking at 23/24 as something of a rebuild and reset season, especially given that the league is going to be so strong this season with a lot of already accomplished sides (Middlesbrough the stand out) joining the relegated trio but you never know...

 

 

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,792]

We looked rather bland and uninspired for most of the game.. Until Sara, Nunez and the new Swiss who is not from Diss came on and we looked like a much better team.

Edited July 26, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Pyro Pete 1,917]

Saturday will be my first viewing of the team.in pre-season. So I will reserve judgement.

But we live in hope.

[TheGunnShow 5,993]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

We looked rather bland and uninspired for most of the game.. Until Sara, Nunez and the new Swiss who is not from Diss came on and we looked like a much better team.

Looked a lot more rugged and organised though.

[Midlands Yellow 4,068]

31 minutes ago, Captain Holt said:

I am a negative person. You will not be shocked to read that if you have read one of my posts in the last twelve months. I need to say the following:

The 40 minutes we had last night in the third period are the most exciting signs I've seen since the Coventry game, despite the youthful Toulouse side we were up against.

We had creativity, nous, flair and accuracy with what we were trying to do. It left me thinking that with Sara, Nunez and most interestingly, Tzolis (cutting in from the left to fill the half space pockets and positively impact the game) we might be on to something, I hope they don't sell Tzolis - I'm convinced there is a player in there. 

We look as if we should be as defensively solid as any Norwich side I can remember in recent history. I alluded to in the match thread. Not many Championship clubs would baulk at the idea of Duffy, Gibson and Hanley being the senior centre backs in the squad.

Kellen Fisher is giving off serious 18/19 Max Aarons vibes and looks oven ready. 

Sargent will score goals IF he has enough chances created for him. He is a decent finisher - not on the Teemu level but he will score different goals - accurate, meaningful crossing is a must. I really, desperately want Adam Idah to do well. I hope one goes in off his **** against Hull and he goes on to score 20.

If Aarons, Rashica and Omobamidele do leave - we will re-invest and dare I say be stronger for it (if our boy Stu spends it well...this window looks to be one of his hits so far - to his credit).

Again, I am a negative person - no problems admitting that. But, I'm willing to give everyone a chance. I do fear the cauldron of Carrow Road is ready to bubble over and a few setbacks early doors should see to that. But this gobby internet mouth will try his hardest not to be a bubbler.

Never mind the f'ing danger.

Captain

It’s coming together, looks like Wagner needed this summer to fully implement all his ideas and philosophy. I’ll be pleased for him if this coming season is a success. 

 

[Captain Holt 522]

7 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

We looked rather bland and uninspired for most of the game.. Until Sara, Nunez and the new Swiss who is not from Diss came on and we looked like a much better team.

Well Nunez and Sara are arguably our two most creative players and the new lad has been signed with goal scoring and creating pedigree so it's a good thing they had that impact.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Captain Holt

[ricardo 7,397]

As always we live in hope. 

[Ulfotto 642]

Might die on this hill but last season issue was the goal against tally rather than the goals for tally. Tighten up at the back and stop being such a soft touch and will should be in with a shout of the playoffs.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Looked a lot more rugged and organised though.

This is actually what we have been missing for years, even in peak Farke we let in howlers. At championship level it didn’t matter with Emi and Pukki and Skipp able to reduce done if the instances but at prem level it just got found out so easily. If, and I do emphasise if, it is the case that we are robust and able to reduce the leakages a little then we have a chance. 
I think trying a new system in the EPL didn’t really work with the personnel so drilled in a very defined role under DF they they couldn’t really adapt, ultimately the proof Will he in the pudding but I do agree that creativity and goals might be a slight issue. I am however optimistic that at this level at least that is an issue for lots of sides. Goalscorers at this level are a rare and valuable commodity and many teams get by without a dominant one. Always be one or two teams that rely heavily on one player for their goals and I suspect we will have 10-14 from Josh and a smattering of 5-6 goals from 4-5 other players. 

Thats the hope, not the expectation at this stage. I do think if we have a few steely wins and battling performances it will be easy to back the side. The haters will always hate, but a stadium needs a bit of mettle to get behind 

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

,

Edited July 26, 2023 by PurpleCanary

[hogesar 9,736]

I love the overall premise of the OP but I still maintain it's still too difficult to really place much weight on anything in pre-season.

What we can say is:

1) Clearly the players are actually adopting Wagner's high press approach now. And that's despite them often having done double / triple training sessions in and around the matches.

2) We are physically bigger and stronger in most areas of the pitch.

3) We appear to be very fit. Wasn't Gibbs still running and pressing 110 minutes into the game yesterday?

Beyond that, I think it's a case of crossing our fingers the all the above translates to results on the pitch.

One of my hopes is that this high-press winning  the ball up the pitch is easy for fans to get behind. Generally you see high effort and pressing and fans get behind it. Would be nice to start the season with a decent atmosphere...

 

EDIT:

@Captain Holt You can't have a badge because this is actually more optimistic than my posts. Guess at this point I just give you the login to my account?

Edited July 26, 2023 by hogesar

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

A nicely considered OP. I have to say I have little confidence in Sargent as a goalscorer and less in Idah. But perhaps there will be goals from other players. Fassnacht for example.

To make the playing it out from the back system work there needs to be a player who is comfortably two-footed. McLean isn't that, so Sara has to be key. And Sainz presumably will add decisive creativity once he gets fit.

Edited July 26, 2023 by PurpleCanary

[Captain Holt 522]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I love the overall premise of the OP but I still maintain it's still too difficult to really place much weight on anything in pre-season.

What we can say is:

1) Clearly the players are actually adopting Wagner's high press approach now. And that's despite them often having done double / triple training sessions in and around the matches.

2) We are physically bigger and stronger in most areas of the pitch.

3) We appear to be very fit. Wasn't Gibbs still running and pressing 110 minutes into the game yesterday?

Beyond that, I think it's a case of crossing our fingers the all the above translates to results on the pitch.

One of my hopes is that this high-press winning  the ball up the pitch is easy for fans to get behind. Generally you see high effort and pressing and fans get behind it. Would be nice to start the season with a decent atmosphere...

 

I've said in the past that you can gauge how things might turn out from pre-season but with no real certainty. For instance last year I didn't think we were creative enough or had any backbone and so it proved. It's therefore only fair I apply the same thinking to the positive things. I've seen more creative and exciting Norwich teams, very much so, but I'm more optimistic than I was this time yesterday or at the final whistle v Blackpool. 

Also - spot on about Gibbs. He too looked almost supercharged when the changes came.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Captain Holt

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 528]

One aim for the season - don't lose to ITFC.... oh and finish above them...

OK, two aims for the season.... oh and don't get relegated...

OK, three aims for the season.

Anything else will be a bonus.

[TheGunnShow 5,993]

I will say I think some of the calls for creativity are valid but missing a key trick. If your high press works consistently you shouldn't need that much creativity as you should be up against a less organised defensive structure. We needed a lot of creativity with Farkeball as his teams were slow and considered in possession before using said possession as a basis on which to suddenly change the pace.

Then teams would sit very deep against us and basically say "pick our lock". That's when you need your incisive pass-pickers, the Dowells, the Cantwells, the Buendias, the Vrancics. Nunez looks like the closest player we have to that, but it's clear we're looking t overload a wing and create more space for  a midfielder to be able to pick a ball even if he's not as skilful as the above-mentioned four.

[dylanisabaddog 4,975]

59 minutes ago, ricardo said:

As always we live in hope. 

That's what gets you in the end

[Google Bot 3,299]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree with your view on Sargent and I agree he poses a more varied threat than Teemu, although not as dangerous in terms of reliably putting good chances away. Not as clinical with his finishing by any means

Not so sure about that, You'd bet your house on Pukki when through on goal, but I think Sarge has already shown better ability of striking from different positions around the outside of the box.

Thing about Pukki is that he's at his best when the odds are stacked in his favour and he's goal side of the defenders with the keeper to beat, his composure in those situations is top class.  But what goes against him is the need to play to that strength.

This is why I can't see why reason Sarge isn't a 20+ striker at this level due to him being better across a wider array of scenarios, If you look throughout his career he's a really good finisher. 

Let's not forget that he's only 23, and yet to play for us as our main attacking outlet.  There's a reason Pukki was dangerous, and that's because we focused on him.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Google Bot

[TheGunnShow 5,993]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Not so sure about that, You'd bet your house on Pukki when through on goal, but I think Sarge has already shown better ability of striking from different positions around the outside of the box.

Thing about Pukki is that he's at his best when the odds are stacked in his favour and he's goal side of the defenders with the keeper to beat, his composure in those situations is top class.  But what goes against him is the need to play to that strength.

This is why I can't see why reason Sarge isn't a 20+ striker at this level due to him being better across a wider array of scenarios, If you look throughout his career he's a really good finisher.  And let's not forget that he's only 23.

How do those opening two paragraphs counter what I wrote? As you said yourself, you'd bet the house (and Paul Merson definitely would have in his old days) on Pukki when in behind a defence and we both agree that Sargent is capable of different types of goal to a greater extent than Pukki ever was.

I said Sargent was not as dangerous as Pukki in terms of reliably putting good chances away and this is where I don't think he's quite as clinical. But that's not a criticism of him, Pukki was just that damned efficient - and as you said, you have to play to Pukki a certain way to get the best out of him.

Sargent will definitely get us goals and he / Barnes together should be a really tough night for any opposing defence. But I don't think he's as natural a finisher.

[BroadstairsR 2,202]

I, too, think that Sargent will become  a big name in this division and, all being well injury wise, should be among the division's highest scorers this season.

I shouldn't be surprised if he even excites Premier League interest for despite the flack he got, on here for example, the season before last he seems to have well and truly become a fan's favourite. His age has to be taken into account, along with the fact that he was pitched in at the deep end, often played from the bench and in a losing outfit when considering his top league credentials.

He might be unorthodox to some extent and not have the silky skills or control demanded from a PL player, but his other attributes weigh against this.

He should get twenty plus goals, imo. and is even proving to be worth the money that we paid for him. All we need is for us to get the money we require for Rashica and for Tzolis to continue in the purposeful way that he seems to have begun this pre-season and those big Webber b-alls-ups at the time might eventually turn out not to have been the total disaster they clearly were then.

Edited July 26, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i think we still need a CDM sitting in Midfield ,

We have seen it before many times high press caught up field and the other side running through the middle ,

a CDM can sit there mopping up any clearances ,holding up play till we are back in position ,

we lack pace in Midfield to get back if we are caught attacking , 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by norfolkngood

[Nuff Said 5,175]

Can I be the first to say “we’re doomed”?

[BigFish 1,988]

29 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i think we still need a CDM sitting in Midfield ,

We have seen it before many times high press caught up field and the other side running through the middle ,

a CDM can sit there mopping up any clearances ,holding up play till we are back in position ,

we lack pace in Midfield to get back if we are caught attacking , 

 

There is no room for a sitting CDM in the way we are setting up for the season.

[Petriix 2,853]

I think the biggest problem will be trying to remain patient and open minded while we work out our best starting 11 and the players learn how to play together in a competitive setting. I still see a lot of over expectation on here with people assuming we'll be competing for the top 6. Before we can contemplate that, we need to find our feet having basically been in free fall at the end of last season. Fans getting on the players' backs early could totally undermine the efforts to bring Wagner's tactics to fruition. 

The underlying concern that some of us have is that it takes a certain level of vision and skill to convert a high turnover into a goal. It's all very well pressing high and winning the ball, but you have to be able to pick that final pass and make the crucial run behind. I fear that we are filling those advanced positions with players who lack the ability to create and score goals. I very much hope to be wrong about this.

Whatever happens we will have to do our best to get behind the team, especially if it doesn't start well.

 

[hogesar 9,736]

2 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

i think we still need a CDM sitting in Midfield ,

We have seen it before many times high press caught up field and the other side running through the middle ,

a CDM can sit there mopping up any clearances ,holding up play till we are back in position ,

we lack pace in Midfield to get back if we are caught attacking , 

 

I don't think our high-press would be that effective if one of the key midfielders dropped deep sitting to mop up. The opposition would always have the extra pass on. 

I guess that's why Wagner wants two 8's instead.

No idea if it'll work, mind.