Mumba

[Indy 3,322]

I think we really need to move on, proof is in the pudding as they say, so let’s take stock after 23 games, see how Mumba’s stats line up against our own players then.

As said the reason behind the transfer is going to be multiple reasons including Mumba having a great season there, getting game time and being wanted.

We will have our wingers to compare against him and in our squad should look far better than Mumba.

[hogesar 9,759]

58 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Sorry - where did I say 'every season'? Far from. The fact is we've only had Omobamidele come through with the same kind of hype across the past 4-5 years. And even with him his form was really patchy last season and we now can't seem to shift him on. 

All I've been trying to say is that there has been a drop off. You said it is the 'polar opposite' of drying up, but are now saying that we can't expect to recreate those successes? Which is it?!

And on the Godfrey / Mumba comparison, why would I not compare the academy prospects? That's the whole point to show the drop off! Are there other players in the academy who would make a fairer comparison with Godfrey and Cantwell? There may well prove to be, but we haven't seen them just yet! And the one who appeared next in line to do it has now left. 

Also before Godfrey / Cantwell went on to do that in the champs and PL, with Norwich by the way, Godfrey was on loan at Shrewsbury town and Cantwell at Fortuna Sittard but we stuck with them! Both at clubs at a pretty similar level to Plymouth, if not lower. But now our best prospects aren't even seen as good enough for a proper go in the team, or to generate more than £1 mil.

Its just a drop off isn't it? It's okay, you probably won't go to hell if you acknowledged it too...

Maybe a drop off in terms of transfer fees received but thats almost been our own decision to keep hold of the likes of Aarons and Cantwell for the sake of the team as opposed to selling them?

To say we've dropped off has surely got to be related to how many are coming through to the first team? If we haven't sold them yet - it's pointless discussing values. We are looking at having in our first team this coming season (subject to change, understandably):

- Gunn

- Aarons

- Omobamidele 

- Idah

- Gibbs

- Rowe

- Springett

All in and around the first team. If that's an academy thats drying up then I'd be very interested to see which academies are thriving and how many they have coming through to a 2nd tier first team and above? We also clearly see all / most of the above as better prospects to Mumba...

As for your last line, you probably just need to accept I have a different view to it than you do, and I do have quite a bit of evidence above to back it up.

Edited July 24, 2023 by hogesar

[BroadstairsR 2,206]

Gibbs only came to City in July 2021 having been at ITFC since 2011, so I would call him more a product of their academy than our own.

Pointing that out doesn't mean I need to be called a "binner." (I will be.)

I was in fact quite chuffed that we were able to attract one of their budding stars due to our higher academy status.

[Petriix 2,853]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

I think we really need to move on, proof is in the pudding as they say, so let’s take stock after 23 games, see how Mumba’s stats line up against our own players then.

As said the reason behind the transfer is going to be multiple reasons including Mumba having a great season there, getting game time and being wanted.

We will have our wingers to compare against him and in our squad should look far better than Mumba.

Great idea. Let's revisit this thread...later (I was going to say 'at Christmas' but it will undoubtedly be resurrected whenever the lad plays) and see how he's getting on compared to the youngsters we have retained. I'll quietly wager 100 Pinkun kudos points that Mumba will have more goal involvements than Onel. 

[canarybubbles 1,946]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

Great idea. Let's revisit this thread...later (I was going to say 'at Christmas' but it will undoubtedly be resurrected whenever the lad plays) and see how he's getting on compared to the youngsters we have retained. I'll quietly wager 100 Pinkun kudos points that Mumba will have more goal involvements than Onel. 

Yes, although I am still unhappy about selling Mumba, I agree we can't do anything else now until we have more information to judge whether this was a good decision or a bad miscalculation. The sooner the season starts and the phoney war is over, the better.

[wcorkcanary 4,342]

I'm glad he's gone. He's rubbish , and he's got a stupid name.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Maybe a drop off in terms of transfer fees received but thats almost been our own decision to keep hold of the likes of Aarons and Cantwell for the sake of the team as opposed to selling them?

To say we've dropped off has surely got to be related to how many are coming through to the first team? If we haven't sold them yet - it's pointless discussing values. We are looking at having in our first team this coming season (subject to change, understandably):

- Gunn

- Aarons

- Omobamidele 

- Idah

- Gibbs

- Rowe

- Springett

All in and around the first team. If that's an academy thats drying up then I'd be very interested to see which academies are thriving and how many they have coming through to a 2nd tier first team and above? We also clearly see all / most of the above as better prospects to Mumba...

As for your last line, you probably just need to accept I have a different view to it than you do, and I do have quite a bit of evidence above to back it up.

I personally think we just have two different definitions here. You think I mean quantity, I’m talking quality.

When I say drying up, I’m talking about our production of the highest quality players. We managed that with 1 superstar in Maddison, then 4 great players during Farke’s second season and the first PL campaign. But since then we’ve just had one come through in Omobamidele and even then he’s flagged a lot after last season. Our selling position as a club has also weakened no end since that peak. 

So yes there may be 4/5 youngsters on the cusp of playing, but none of them bring the kind of pedigree we need to really kick on IMO. Selling players like Mumba for £1 million will do very little in terms of funding further progression. Hopefully by the end of the season there is a clear picture (in a good way) about the players you mention. 

 

[Google Bot 3,327]

9 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I'm glad he's gone. He's rubbish , and he's got a stupid name.

Webber Sympathiser!! 

[canarybubbles 1,946]

23 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I'm glad he's gone. He's rubbish , and he's got a stupid name.

He's got a great name. Bali Mumba is a really cool name that lends itself to football chants.

What would you prefer? Sargent? He can't even spell it right.

Rowe? Sounds like an accountant.

Duffy? Judging by his two back header howlers in five games, nominative determinism.

Springett? Industrial supplies/hardware store.

Stacey? Essex girl.

 

 

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

2 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

He's got a great name. Bali Mumba is a really cool name that lends itself to football chants.

What would you prefer? Sargent? He can't even spell it right.

Rowe? Sounds like an accountant.

Duffy? Judging by his two back header howlers in five games, nominative determinism.

Springett? Industrial supplies/hardware store.

Stacey? Essex girl.

 

 

Never mind that, I'm sure we can all agree he should have the number 5 shirt.

[wcorkcanary 4,342]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Never mind that, I'm sure we can all agree he should have the number 5 shirt.

I'm not  agreeing. The  lad is clearly an idiot. 

[The Bunny 314]

If you want to see how momentously stupid this decision looks, contrast the handling of Idah and Mumba. 

Idah wins himself a 5 year contract and is very much in the first team picture next season, despite an incredibly poor goal return over his professional career, and multiple seasons in which he didn't take opportunities presented to him. 

And then we have Mumba who took his opportunities with both hands, had an incredible breakthrough season and the club then shipped him out at the first opportunity. 

Repeatedly making poor decisions like this is how you take championship/premier league willing team and reduce them to a team fighting relegation to league one. That's what's happening at our club. There's a massive dilution of talent. How many talented creative players have been allowed to leave in the last 3-4 seasons? Have the replacements been better than those they're replacing? Nobody in their right mind would think so. 

[Nuff Said 5,178]

9 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

He's got a great name. Bali Mumba is a really cool name that lends itself to football chants.

What would you prefer? Sargent? He can't even spell it right.

Rowe? Sounds like an accountant.

Duffy? Judging by his two back header howlers in five games, nominative determinism.

Springett? Industrial supplies/hardware store.

Stacey? Essex girl.

 

 

Plus Rowe seems to be auto-corrected to Rose for many posters, which confuses the hell out of me.

[Mella Yella 40]

Oh for a manager who can the best out of players.

 

[Badger 2,412]

17 hours ago, Petriix said:

I'll quietly wager 100 Pinkun kudos points that Mumba will have more goal involvements than Onel. 

They play in different positions, in different systems for different teams - a bit like comparing orange production in Helsinki to vodka consumption in Nottingham - meaningless!

[Petriix 2,853]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

They play in different positions, in different systems for different teams - a bit like comparing orange production in Helsinki to vodka consumption in Nottingham - meaningless!

If anything, Onel plays the more attacking role. 

[ged in the onion bag 857]

20 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Yes, although I am still unhappy about selling Mumba, I agree we can't do anything else now until we have more information to judge whether this was a good decision or a bad miscalculation. The sooner the season starts and the phoney war is over, the better.

Doesn’t usually stop the cascade of speculation…. Some informed, some idiotic etc….

[RobJames 892]

On 21/07/2023 at 19:04, RobJames said:

How ? Out on loan, as he obviously will be behind Stacey. Fisher looks like he could be another Gibbs. Straight into the first team squad.

The club would have been monitoring Mumba while he was at Plymouth. If they thought he was up to it, they would not have signed Stacey, nor perhaps signed Fisher.  It is a good measure of where some on here are coming from. The club have brought in Fisher for what I presume is next to nothing, and a few other promising youngsters. Stacey looks as good as Aarons

Kellen Fisher’s impact helped convince David Wagner Norwich City should cash in on Bali Mumba.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/23681062.norwich-city-wagner-kellen-fisher-impact-bali-mumba-sale/

 

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

12 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Kellen Fisher’s impact helped convince David Wagner Norwich City should cash in on Bali Mumba.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/23681062.norwich-city-wagner-kellen-fisher-impact-bali-mumba-sale/

 

Only time will tell, but that's how you put your foot in the door.

[Branston Pickle 3,690]

19 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Kellen Fisher’s impact helped convince David Wagner Norwich City should cash in on Bali Mumba.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/23681062.norwich-city-wagner-kellen-fisher-impact-bali-mumba-sale/

 

Pretty much says what many have been saying all along.  It’s one opinion/view and obviously the one the guys in charge have.

[jaberry2 556]

On 25/07/2023 at 00:00, The Bunny said:

If you want to see how momentously stupid this decision looks, contrast the handling of Idah and Mumba. 

Idah wins himself a 5 year contract and is very much in the first team picture next season, despite an incredibly poor goal return over his professional career, and multiple seasons in which he didn't take opportunities presented to him. 

And then we have Mumba who took his opportunities with both hands, had an incredible breakthrough season and the club then shipped him out at the first opportunity. 

Repeatedly making poor decisions like this is how you take championship/premier league willing team and reduce them to a team fighting relegation to league one. That's what's happening at our club. There's a massive dilution of talent. How many talented creative players have been allowed to leave in the last 3-4 seasons? Have the replacements been better than those they're replacing? Nobody in their right mind would think so. 

A 5 year contract was probably awarded on the basis of protecting an asset and enhancing value. Even if we dont rate him highly clearly some other clubs will and with a 5 year contract we can attract a decent fee, if that time comes.

[BigFish 1,988]

On 24/07/2023 at 17:33, Petriix said:

Great idea. Let's revisit this thread...later (I was going to say 'at Christmas' but it will undoubtedly be resurrected whenever the lad plays) and see how he's getting on compared to the youngsters we have retained. I'll quietly wager 100 Pinkun kudos points that Mumba will have more goal involvements than Onel. 

Possibly, even probably, but not if Mumba played in the position he would end up in if he stayed - which is on the bench.

[BSEYELLOW 36]

Mumba is a wing back by both his own and Wagner's admission.  We dont play with wing backs.  He was decent, if sporadic in a top team in the league below.  He wasnt going to start here, he wanted to leave, we have better.

Time to move on.  He will have a decent career in a position we dont play with and will progress much quicker/further as he will be playing regularly, rather than sitting on our bench.  Looking back in a few months wont really tell us much.

[RobJames 892]

6 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Pretty much says what many have been saying all along.  It’s one opinion/view and obviously the one the guys in charge have.

Given there was no real pressure to sell. A million or so here or there is not going to make much difference with the Aarons & Rashida sales up coming. The thought has to be that this monitoring Mumba think he has gone as far as he can, whereas Fisher is only starting.

Mumba maybe higher than Fisher, but Mumba is on the of his step ladder with Fisher a rung down on a full size ladder. Fisher can gain experience ith the U 21s, whereas Mumba is over aged and would either face another loan, or be sat of the bench, as it is clear Stacey was signed as first choice.

All credit to the club for nabbing him, as we did with Maddison.  Despite the whinging to the contrary, the club must be doing something right.

[RobJames 892]

"How many talented creative players have been allowed to leave in the last 3-4 seasons? "

Clearly football is not one of your strong subjects, or even one you would pass a cycling proficiency test in.  Our club is just one in the food chain. Near the top, but there are other bigger clubs than us. And your little foot stamping won't change that.

Try blocking a lucrative move and you shut the door to any other players thinking of joining us. A player denied a huge signing in fee, double (or more wages) and a chance to play in the PL is NOT going to be a motivated player at City.

Perhaps nursery rhymes are more your thing ?

[The Bunny 314]

1 hour ago, RobJames said:

"How many talented creative players have been allowed to leave in the last 3-4 seasons? "

Clearly football is not one of your strong subjects, or even one you would pass a cycling proficiency test in.  Our club is just one in the food chain. Near the top, but there are other bigger clubs than us. And your little foot stamping won't change that.

Try blocking a lucrative move and you shut the door to any other players thinking of joining us. A player denied a huge signing in fee, double (or more wages) and a chance to play in the PL is NOT going to be a motivated player at City.

Perhaps nursery rhymes are more your thing ?

I guess I'll ignore the primary school insults and respond to the actual content, such as it is...

Cantwell and Mumba were not "lucrative moves", neither was Pukki leaving on a free, or Vrancic for that matter. And Ramsey disappearing with a mystery injury, only to show up at one of our rivals a few weeks later (that one was a loan, but again, the club failed to recognise the player's value and mismanaged the situation). 

My comment wasn't particularly about big clubs coming in and buying our best players, it was about the club failing to recognise talent and letting good players leave for less than they're worth, whilst mediocre players are offered 5 year contracts, and money is wasted on poor quality replacements. The recruitment/retention have been terrible by all objective metrics. That's why we finished 13th last season.

Perhaps you're talking about Emi Buendia though. If you think a club selling its best player upon getting promoted to the PL is a conventional strategy then I would suggest perhaps it's you that doesn't know anything about football. It was a hugely risky approach and it clearly didn't work out (not least due to woeful recruitment which immediately wiped out all profit on poor quality replacements). That's about where the slide started I reckon, and the league position seems to correlate. 

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

5 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

I guess I'll ignore the primary school insults and respond to the actual content, such as it is...

Cantwell and Mumba were not "lucrative moves", neither was Pukki leaving on a free, or Vrancic for that matter. And Ramsey disappearing with a mystery injury, only to show up at one of our rivals a few weeks later (that one was a loan, but again, the club failed to recognise the player's value and mismanaged the situation). 

My comment wasn't particularly about big clubs coming in and buying our best players, it was about the club failing to recognise talent and letting good players leave for less than they're worth, whilst mediocre players are offered 5 year contracts, and money is wasted on poor quality replacements. The recruitment/retention have been terrible by all objective metrics. That's why we finished 13th last season.

Perhaps you're talking about Emi Buendia though. If you think a club selling its best player upon getting promoted to the PL is a conventional strategy then I would suggest perhaps it's you that doesn't know anything about football. It was a hugely risky approach and it clearly didn't work out (not least due to woeful recruitment which immediately wiped out all profit on poor quality replacements). That's about where the slide started I reckon, and the league position seems to correlate. 

Only Vrancic of those players wanted to be at the club, all the others have stated that they wanted to go.

 

[The Bunny 314]

13 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Only Vrancic of those players wanted to be at the club, all the others have stated that they wanted to go.

Well in most cases they wanted to go because the club clearly didn't value them.

It wouldn't be so bad if they managed to at least get a decent fee. e.g 1m for Cantwell can only be viewed as a massive failure. I suspect we'll also regret only getting 1m for Mumba. 

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

2 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Well in most cases they wanted to go because the club clearly didn't value them.

It wouldn't be so bad if they managed to at least get a decent fee. e.g 1m for Cantwell can only be viewed as a massive failure. I suspect we'll also regret only getting 1m for Mumba. 

Nope.

[The Bunny 314]

4 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Nope.

You think Mumba being told he was going to be played in a different position inclined him to want to stay? He clearly wasn't valued, Wagner even suggested (non-league) Fisher's performances convinced him Mumba wasn't needed. OTOH Plymouth loved him; clearly he'd want to play for them instead. Cantwell also left under a cloud after being frozen out and packed off on loan.