First definitive ground expansion confirmation?

[Mello Yello 2,303]

14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

.(Although I prefer Slade's version on 'Slade Alive')

Philistine!!!

I know, sorry....But it's live an' it's Noddy's voice coupled with the guitars, bass an' drums....It just sounds the fuggin biz!....

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

12 minutes ago, Bradwell canary said:

Gone are the days, when we called the new river end the Justin stand. Build with the £1m Forest paid City for him.

If things carry on as they have in terms of performances, the present stands will be able to cope!

Thought it was the money we got for Kevin Reeves from Man City.

[dylanisabaddog 5,015]

2 hours ago, essex canary said:

Hmm.

In 2020 Burnley and Sheffield United finished ninth and tenth in the Premier League. Our wage bill split the difference between the two. Theirs probably included substantial staying up bonuses for them and weren't we the only PL Club to claim the Government's Covid subsidy? These Clubs have spent significantly less on Wages in the last 3 years relative to status at the time.

Due to our higher supporter and commercial contributions we would have 'lost' more than them but comparator accounts for both years would suggest a figure closer to £22 million (perhaps a tendency to round up on NCFCs part).

High wages is the reason we haven't been able to make at least some significant contributions to ground development.

Yes we did spend a lot on wages. But we also lost £30m to Covid. That's the club's figure not mine. Something you never mention in your endless financial posts which seems a bit odd to me. Does it interfere with your narrative? 

[shefcanary 2,468]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Yes we did spend a lot on wages. But we also lost £30m to Covid. That's the club's figure not mine. Something you never mention in your endless financial posts which seems a bit odd to me. Does it interfere with your narrative? 

Covid was the same for all clubs, how much we attribute to it is down to the accountants. The accountants have also reported the club is somewhat profligate with our salary spend in comparison to other clubs in direct competition over a similar period as well as against FFP.

Whilst not sympathising with Essex's ultimate dispute (i never invested in shares with a view to a return, a dividend or a say in the running of the club), a lot of what he raises on recent finances is of concern. Most definitely if we had spent the difference, between our salary and squad spend and those of competitors, on bricks and mortar, given our respective finishes in the league last season, we would be in a better position than what we are now. The low mortgage rates on offer pre-covid are now long gone, truly a once in a lifetime opportunity missed. 

We have squandered money and are nowhere near meeting the club's vision. The City Stand will, if it remains, lay testament to the poor governance under Smith & Jones control (apologies if that upsets people but someone, somewhere lost the plot).

The current stasis over Attansasio's next move further frustrates. Sam Hall's departure was interesting, raising questions over whether the club was set up with appropriate skills for the position it faced. Something has gone awry, the timetable has surely slipped markedly. I don't buy the argument it is the takeover panel creating hurdles, those issues have always existed.

Still, having watched the videos of the Anfield Road expansion project (what a thrill to see such a civil engineering feat close up), at least now there is a clear view of how the City Stand can be expanded without having to close it and relocate the season ticket holders. A simple build behind and over the existing stand is possible, then a rrebuild of the old lower tier a la St Andrews to follow. It will take time and be costly, but should not reduce capacity in the interim. Will Attansio have the wherewithal to pursue it?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Thought it was the money we got for Kevin Reeves from Man City.

It was.

[Commonsense 651]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

It was.

No Reeves, no fans, no future. I believe the banner said. The poor bloke didn’t even want to leave!

[Canary dwarf 221]

2 hours ago, Commonsense said:

So let’s sell our best player and spend the money on a stand at a time when nobody knew when or how people would be allowed to attend. Even wealthy clubs paused building during COVID., but you alone were clever enough to know what the outcome would be.

It would have been a gamble no doubt about it but COVID wasn't gonna last for ever , missed opportunity.

[Capt. Pants 4,297]

It's a shame there wasn't a bit more foresight when the old Main Stand burnt down and was replaced whereby NCFC supplemented Norwich Union's settlement. The size of the stand could have been nearly doubled with a relatively modest 'betterment' payment from the club.

Zoe's phrase 'astronomical construction costs' doesn't sound as though it will be happening this decade.

[Soldier on 168]

Interesting that Zoe Webber said this was something she was aiming to achieve during her time at the club. Suggests they are getting closer to pulling the Trigger on it 

[dylanisabaddog 5,015]

58 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Covid was the same for all clubs, how much we attribute to it is down to the accountants. The accountants have also reported the club is somewhat profligate with our salary spend in comparison to other clubs in direct competition over a similar period as well as against FFP.

Whilst not sympathising with Essex's ultimate dispute (i never invested in shares with a view to a return, a dividend or a say in the running of the club), a lot of what he raises on recent finances is of concern. Most definitely if we had spent the difference, between our salary and squad spend and those of competitors, on bricks and mortar, given our respective finishes in the league last season, we would be in a better position than what we are now. The low mortgage rates on offer pre-covid are now long gone, truly a once in a lifetime opportunity missed. 

We have squandered money and are nowhere near meeting the club's vision. The City Stand will, if it remains, lay testament to the poor governance under Smith & Jones control (apologies if that upsets people but someone, somewhere lost the plot).

The current stasis over Attansasio's next move further frustrates. Sam Hall's departure was interesting, raising questions over whether the club was set up with appropriate skills for the position it faced. Something has gone awry, the timetable has surely slipped markedly. I don't buy the argument it is the takeover panel creating hurdles, those issues have always existed.

Still, having watched the videos of the Anfield Road expansion project (what a thrill to see such a civil engineering feat close up), at least now there is a clear view of how the City Stand can be expanded without having to close it and relocate the season ticket holders. A simple build behind and over the existing stand is possible, then a rrebuild of the old lower tier a la St Andrews to follow. It will take time and be costly, but should not reduce capacity in the interim. Will Attansio have the wherewithal to pursue it?

As usual you've made some good points but I think the club's intention was to make a couple of big sales and hope to stay in the Premier League for at least one year in order to fund expansion. In hindsight that was fanciful and the money spent on players leading up to both Premier League seasons was wasted. That's poor judgement as regards players rather than a financial issue. We almost certainly overspent on wages but presumably that was in an attempt to keep and attract players. And frankly, would you want to be Sheffield United or Burnley? I wouldn't pay to watch that. 

But the fact remains that we lost a huge amount of money to Covid. Most clubs in the Premier League have a sugar daddy. We don't and we probably suffered most as a result. 

We did miss an opportunity to borrow cheap but I really don't think we should criticise the board for that. Very few people saw what was coming in terms of interest rates or Covid but if you want someone to blame for the current interest rates look no further than the Government and Truss in particular. 

Even at historically low rates we would have struggled to persuade any financial institution to lend us all the money. We would have needed to sell 90% of the additional seats for 20 years to pay off a loan for the full amount which I would guess will now be well in excess of £60m. At current rates it would be crazy to even think about it. You only need look 40 miles south to see that. 

I often read comments about Brentford and Brighton and how clever they've been. They have obviously bought players much better than us but they have also been beneficiaries of £100m stadiums paid for by their very rich owners. 

[ncfcstar 292]

16 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

I said something similar, possibly even before COVID hit. We had Aarons, Godfrey, Lewis, Cantwell and Buendia with a combined market value of £100-120m, and could easily have funded the rebuild by selling three, possibly four, of them and spending the bulk of it on taking the capacity to 33-35,000.

In hindsight this might sound sensible, but can you even begin to imagine the posts on this messageboard and the nonsense that would be posted on Twitter if we'd have done that and we got relegated?

[Ward 3 374]

More bs to keep the happy clappers happy, won't happen for another 15 years at least. Be very shocked if it happens

[Google Bot 3,329]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Covid was the same for all clubs, how much we attribute to it is down to the accountants.

While the environment is the similar for all clubs, we don't all share the same business models. 

I think it's fair to assume that a self-sufficient club is going to feel multi-million losses far greater than those bankrolled externally, made worse that we're a self-sufficient club who was experiencing the turbulence of yo-yo'ing between riches and relative rags.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,865]

51 minutes ago, ncfcstar said:

In hindsight this might sound sensible, but can you even begin to imagine the posts on this messageboard and the nonsense that would be posted on Twitter if we'd have done that and we got relegated?

As it was, we got relegated that season anyway, but the time to have done that would've been the summer of 2020 after relegation; we didn't spend much upon promotion but had over £100m worth of saleable assets in those five players alone. Using them to find the new stand was the logical thing to do.

Obviously COVID happened and nobody could be sure how it would affect finances, so I understand why it didn't happen, but we now know that COVID has made absolutely no difference to the finances of clubs at the top end of the game. 

[Jimmy_Fitch 35]

I love the idea of expanding the ground. Although it's nice to see the city skyline from my seat in the south stand, the current "main stand" does look old and small.

I was interested to see how Liverpool expanded their Anfield Road stand and came across a YouTube video. It looks very doable along Carrow road. I also wonder if we will add staff parking / player bus parking under the city stand extension. 

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

admit it our grounds too small for us ! 

[Michael Starr 522]

It's ridiculous that we're limited on capacity even now. Huge catchment area. Potentially a fantastic multi purpose stadium for not just football but beyond. I get it, the investment wouldn't be returned for at least a decade on face value but it would potentially unlock more lucrative non football events such as concerts and dare I even say future sporting events due to the fact that nothing else is close in this part of the country.

[essex canary 508]

@dylanisabaddog

The fact that our Covid losses are bigger than other clubs reflects the fact that the fans are our sugar dadddy. Were it not for the PL and parachutes, we would be able to afford a similar wage bill to Middlesbrough at present. Despite not having been in the PL for a while they are still very competitive at the moment. Their sugar daddy doesn’t seem over bothered about employing his nephew. Clearly Brentford's sugar daddy has enabled them to acquire a new ground and get ahead of us. Nonetheless their wage spend upon going up was £50 million less than ours which ought to be the relevant statistic for judging relative performance in that PL season. Going back to 2019/20 why did we double the wage spend (excluding bonuses) when we knew we couldn't make an impression? Would have made sense to put some money aside then even if Covid had subsequently impacted. Probably an issue of cash burning a hole in their pocket. They have to spend it on an extra player, an extra training ground project or wait one more year rather than put something aside.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,347]

20 hours ago, Canary dwarf said:

Oh aren't you mister doom and gloom 😞

Tbf , he's  right. 

[essex canary 508]

6 hours ago, shefcanary said:

 

Whilst not sympathising with Essex's ultimate dispute (i never invested in shares with a view to a return, a dividend or a say in the running of the club), a lot of what he raises on recent finances is of concern. Most definitely if we had spent the difference, between our salary and squad spend and those of competitors, on bricks and mortar, given our respective finishes in the league last season, we would be in a better position than what we are now. The low mortgage rates on offer pre-covid are now long gone, truly a once in a lifetime opportunity missed. 

We have squandered money and are nowhere near meeting the club's vision. The City Stand will, if it remains, lay testament to the poor governance under Smith & Jones control (apologies if that upsets people but someone, somewhere lost the plot).

The current stasis over Attansasio's next move further frustrates. Sam Hall's departure was interesting, raising questions over whether the club was set up with appropriate skills for the position it faced. Something has gone awry, the timetable has surely slipped markedly. I don't buy the argument it is the takeover panel creating hurdles.

Assuming you bought 4 shares you could get your money back in home memberships within 4 years and it is the gift that keeps on giving including potentially beyond your lifetime.

Sam Hall once gave me a breakdown of my season ticket arrangement claiming that we had had our money back after 17 years. Unfortunately though he plugged in the current price rather than the average price that makes at least 5 years difference and no mention of interest rates. When I approached him for an away membership he told me he had arranged for 8 to be withdrawn that had been issued incorrectly to season ticket holders.

Weaknesses all round in relation to attitudes to minority shareholders and accountability in general. To be fair to Sam though it is a team game and he has a line manager plus other Board members should understand the context including the guy who exited. Though perhaps some accountability should have been undertaken in the past too as the whole minority shareholder set up isn't practicable.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,347]

8 hours ago, Soldier on said:

Interesting that Zoe Webber said this was something she was aiming to achieve during her time at the club. Suggests they are getting closer to pulling the Trigger on it 

Or that she's  here long term.

[PurpleCanary 5,587]

7 hours ago, Jimmy_Fitch said:

I love the idea of expanding the ground. Although it's nice to see the city skyline from my seat in the south stand, the current "main stand" does look old and small.

I was interested to see how Liverpool expanded their Anfield Road stand and came across a YouTube video. It looks very doable along Carrow road. I also wonder if we will add staff parking / player bus parking under the city stand extension. 

 

I don’t know whether it would be a problem for us, but there is much more clear open space at the back of that Liverpool stand than there is with the City Stand.

[Canary dwarf 221]

9 hours ago, Ward 3 said:

More bs to keep the happy clappers happy, won't happen for another 15 years at least. Be very shocked if it happens

Maybe but the club are shooting themselves in the foot , we were selling out carrow road when we were in league one fact !

[Canary dwarf 221]

7 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

It's ridiculous that we're limited on capacity even now. Huge catchment area. Potentially a fantastic multi purpose stadium for not just football but beyond. I get it, the investment wouldn't be returned for at least a decade on face value but it would potentially unlock more lucrative non football events such as concerts and dare I even say future sporting events due to the fact that nothing else is close in this part of the country.

This is what spurs have done and they'll feel the benefits in a few years time , I'm not comparing us to spurs but if we do this we'll benefit big time.😁

[Canary dwarf 221]

10 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

As usual you've made some good points but I think the club's intention was to make a couple of big sales and hope to stay in the Premier League for at least one year in order to fund expansion. In hindsight that was fanciful and the money spent on players leading up to both Premier League seasons was wasted. That's poor judgement as regards players rather than a financial issue. We almost certainly overspent on wages but presumably that was in an attempt to keep and attract players. And frankly, would you want to be Sheffield United or Burnley? I wouldn't pay to watch that. 

But the fact remains that we lost a huge amount of money to Covid. Most clubs in the Premier League have a sugar daddy. We don't and we probably suffered most as a result. 

We did miss an opportunity to borrow cheap but I really don't think we should criticise the board for that. Very few people saw what was coming in terms of interest rates or Covid but if you want someone to blame for the current interest rates look no further than the Government and Truss in particular. 

Even at historically low rates we would have struggled to persuade any financial institution to lend us all the money. We would have needed to sell 90% of the additional seats for 20 years to pay off a loan for the full amount which I would guess will now be well in excess of £60m. At current rates it would be crazy to even think about it. You only need look 40 miles south to see that. 

I often read comments about Brentford and Brighton and how clever they've been. They have obviously bought players much better than us but they have also been beneficiaries of £100m stadiums paid for by their very rich owners. 

Very good post and you make some interesting statements we have no sugar daddy so COVID was far worse for us , however making comparisons to us an Ipswich is inaccurate, we've grown , they've shrunk !

[dylanisabaddog 5,015]

4 hours ago, Canary dwarf said:

Very good post and you make some interesting statements we have no sugar daddy so COVID was far worse for us , however making comparisons to us an Ipswich is inaccurate, we've grown , they've shrunk !

The comparison to Ipswich was a reference to the fact that several years ago they borrowed £30m to fund ground expansion and improvements. It went badly wrong and they couldn't pay it back. They ended up owing Evans £100m as a result. 

Although we have out performed them over a 30 year period they are a similar sized club to us and are perhaps a good example of what can happen if a medium sized club takes on a large long term debt to create additional seating. 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

Well whatever occurs regarding ground expansion.....It'll all end in tiers.....

[yellowrider120 793]

22 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Given the state of our railways I can't begin to imagine how long it would take to build a new station and track network.

It's a better location than UEA area though, that's a traffic disaster at best of times.

I think the club would lose a lot of support moving to a soulless out of town stadium. It certainly wouldn't appeal to me and the type of matchday experience I enjoy, i.e a pub!

Ultimately the club can't afford to do it unless we have guaranteed £200m a year Premier League TV revenue coming in, and we're a long way off that. It's a vicious circle, the longer we wait the more it costs.

 

 

Well The Amex is most definitely not a 'soulless' stadium. The West Stand dwarfs anything we have and looks hugely impressive. That type of stand which I would love to see us have is not possible within the incredibly tight confines of FCR. Whilst I would be hesitant at moving, I find it very short sighted of the club not to have made a very public decision to .............'evaluate all options in conjunction with local authorities / other interested parties'  re either FCR expansion or a new stadium / entertainment complex  elsewhere.

There is a simple 'shrug of the shoulders' attitude that smacks of 'Oh well, we'll just have to make do, add a steep tier on top of the existing Subbuteo stand'. One had hoped that the Americans (IF they do takeover) might have more progressive thinking on these matters. For example, Norwich sadly lacks a proper concert hall. If you build a new stadium with plenty of space then something like that could be incorporated. The 'can't do that here' mentality is irrevocable it seems!'   

 

[hogesar 9,766]

20 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Covid was the same for all clubs, how much we attribute to it is down to the accountants. The accountants have also reported the club is somewhat profligate with our salary spend in comparison to other clubs in direct competition over a similar period as well as against FFP.

Whilst not sympathising with Essex's ultimate dispute (i never invested in shares with a view to a return, a dividend or a say in the running of the club), a lot of what he raises on recent finances is of concern. Most definitely if we had spent the difference, between our salary and squad spend and those of competitors, on bricks and mortar, given our respective finishes in the league last season, we would be in a better position than what we are now. The low mortgage rates on offer pre-covid are now long gone, truly a once in a lifetime opportunity missed. 

I think the irony here is with the amount of fans willing to completely ignore the infrastructure and "bricks and mortar" devoted to Colney now that it doesn't suit.

[Darth Vadis 158]

The club simply must look at alternative ways to finance this other than three consecutive years in the prem. The club have been saying that for (at least) ten years now and it could easily go on for another ten. Player sales, another fan bond, help from Marky Mark, not spending our money on gash when we do eventually get promoted... Tzolis, Sargent, Rashica, Lees-Melou, that must be about £30m right there - I know what I'd rather have than those four. 

 

Hopefully once work at Colney is finished they can go full steam ahead on development of the Carra