The boy Cantwell

[Petriix 2,853]

There's some weird selective memory going on here. I don't remember Cantwell ever playing particularly badly, especially in comparison to what we've witnessed since he left. He was left out of the team because he didn't fit the flawed system that Dean Smith was trying to play. The other stuff is purely speculation. My guess is that he lost confidence precisely because he was out of favour. 

In hindsight, it was madness to sell him before giving Wagner a chance to look at him. Given our awful end to the season it's genuinely baffling that anyone could possibly claim that we didn't miss him. We were totally devoid of creativity and control in midfield after Dowell got injured. Would anyone really rather have Tzolis over Todd? 

[Petriix 2,853]

5 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

As a Norwich fan I miss the £20 million we have let fritter through our fingers.

Whereas I miss having a player who can receive the ball into feet in the opposition half without it ballooning 20ft away. 

[Google Bot 3,329]

7 minutes ago, Petriix said:

There's some weird selective memory going on here. I don't remember Cantwell ever playing particularly badly, especially in comparison to what we've witnessed since he left.

The last few times we saw him play in yellow he was really putting a shift in too, yet there was still hate for him.  Gutted for how it turned here and seeing the **** he got from our own both around the ground and online.

I wish I could be pleased for him - but as per Tzolis, Rashica, and Pukki this season - all signs of poor management at this club where we've failed to motivate and get the best out of the talent on the books - who were at least nailed on top 6 contenders.  So it leaves me quite sad, really.

I mean, I am pleased for the lad but there were too many failings at this club last summer and I can't believe how we managed to screw ourselves over in a creative and motivated capacity as we did.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Google Bot

[Hairy Canary 711]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Whereas I miss having a player who can receive the ball into feet in the opposition half without it ballooning 20ft away. 

Absolutely, impossible to disagree with that, but to end up without the player or the money is a management disaster 

[CANARYKING 644]

Having watched the highlights, yes I know it was a weaker Celtic team, it looked like TC had loads of energy and strength and scored a cracking goal, such a shame and sad ending 

[lake district canary 4,548]

1 hour ago, Hairy Canary said:

Unfortunately, however unpalatable it is to hear, Cantwell is a management failure.

Can't agree with that. Not entirely, anyway. Although there may have been mistakes made by managment along the way, the player and his agent must bear some of the responsibility. When relationships break down, the reasons are usually on both sides and Cantwell has hardly helped his cause, not being available to play on so many occasions.  It was quite clear he and/or his agent were making things difficult for the club right back when he delayed signing a contract in 2019, long after other players signed and there have been little signs all along the way he was being difficult. 

Both sides bear responsibility imo.

[Hairy Canary 711]

8 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Can't agree with that. Not entirely, anyway. Although there may have been mistakes made by managment along the way, the player and his agent must bear some of the responsibility. When relationships break down, the reasons are usually on both sides and Cantwell has hardly helped his cause, not being available to play on so many occasions.  It was quite clear he and/or his agent were making things difficult for the club right back when he delayed signing a contract in 2019, long after other players signed and there have been little signs all along the way he was being difficult. 

Both sides bear responsibility imo.

Totally agree with the sentiment LCD that both sides bear responsibility when relationships break down.
 

However this still remains an employer / employee relationship, albeit an unusual one, and management is all about getting the best out of your employee. Yes of course it’s not an easy task when you may be faced with a difficult situation but that’s why management is highly paid. At the end of the day there is one big loser here and that is the club. No player and no fee. Quite simply that should never have happened with a multi million pound asset. If the relationship was irretrievable as looks like was the case here then that should have been spotted much earlier and he should have been sold when he still had significant value. That is at management’s door. 

[AJ 1,230]

We should never have let him go. He was the only player we had possible of emulating Buendia in any shape or form. Problem is if he didn't want to stay there isn't much that could be done

[Capt. Pants 4,284]

22 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Can't miss someone who makes it very clear he does not want to play for you though.

So you don't miss Emi Buendia then?

[duke63 545]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

There's some weird selective memory going on here. I don't remember Cantwell ever playing particularly badly, especially in comparison to what we've witnessed since he left. He was left out of the team because he didn't fit the flawed system that Dean Smith was trying to play. The other stuff is purely speculation. My guess is that he lost confidence precisely because he was out of favour. 

In hindsight, it was madness to sell him before giving Wagner a chance to look at him. Given our awful end to the season it's genuinely baffling that anyone could possibly claim that we didn't miss him. We were totally devoid of creativity and control in midfield after Dowell got injured. Would anyone really rather have Tzolis over Todd? 

There were plenty of games where he put in little effort and you could see he didn't want to be on the pitch. Strange for someone earning a lot of money!

[king canary 7,680]

12 hours ago, Petriix said:

There's some weird selective memory going on here. I don't remember Cantwell ever playing particularly badly, especially in comparison to what we've witnessed since he left. He was left out of the team because he didn't fit the flawed system that Dean Smith was trying to play. The other stuff is purely speculation. My guess is that he lost confidence precisely because he was out of favour. 

In hindsight, it was madness to sell him before giving Wagner a chance to look at him. Given our awful end to the season it's genuinely baffling that anyone could possibly claim that we didn't miss him. We were totally devoid of creativity and control in midfield after Dowell got injured. Would anyone really rather have Tzolis over Todd? 

Not sure I'd agree with that.

He looked dreadful at times under Smith. Often either looked like he was trying far too hard to make something happen or not trying much at all. I know stats aren't the be all and end all but it is noticeable whoscored have his overall rating at 6.5, the 19th best in the squad. I personally think he struggled when he didn't have Emi drawing attention away from him and had to be the main playmaker. That extra attention plus not having another person who liked to come inside and interchange put a spotlight on him that he couldn't quite step up to.

I think his head just wasn't right. How much of that is him, how much of that is Farke/Smith/Webber we don't know. I'm of the opinion that he and the club needed a divorce as there was no way he could get his head straight in this environment. It reminded me a bit of how things were with Chris Martin towards the end of his time here- the best option for him and the club was to go their separate ways.  

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

12 hours ago, king canary said:

Not sure I'd agree with that.

He looked dreadful at times under Smith. Often either looked like he was trying far too hard to make something happen or not trying much at all. I know stats aren't the be all and end all but it is noticeable whoscored have his overall rating at 6.5, the 19th best in the squad. I personally think he struggled when he didn't have Emi drawing attention away from him and had to be the main playmaker. That extra attention plus not having another person who liked to come inside and interchange put a spotlight on him that he couldn't quite step up to.

I think his head just wasn't right. How much of that is him, how much of that is Farke/Smith/Webber we don't know. I'm of the opinion that he and the club needed a divorce as there was no way he could get his head straight in this environment. It reminded me a bit of how things were with Chris Martin towards the end of his time here- the best option for him and the club was to go their separate ways.  

100% this. 

Emi wasn’t just the player Pukki needed to be a prolific goal scorer, he was also the player Cantwell needed to have the spell of success he did you only have to look at how he played whenever Emi was injured or suspended and almost every game he played since Emi left. He is a decent player when he has great players to play alongside. Cantwell couldn’t carry a team and he was so easily nullified. I don’t have a short memory at all. I have eyes that see and interpret. It may be different to how others viewed his contribution but when comparing his creativity to others, you can’t compare his creativity when Emi was in the team with the players we have now without Emi in the team. Whose yo say what Tzolis could do if Buendia was still in the side. Impossible to compare, but I’m sure Tzolis actually scored a goal for us this last two years 

[Foxy2600 305]

There was also a negative side to Buendia - like when things weren't going so well he'd react in a bad way start blaming other's in the team and be one tackle away from a yellow or even red. His link up play couldn't be faulted but if the player didn't put enough effort into trying to make something happen with his pass they'd just get moaned at. Happened a few times with Todd. I'm sure that hastened his and eventually Todd's departure. Watching Villa this season, Emi seems to have reeled that in - possibly because he's surrounded by players at least as good as him. 

 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

No matter what happened between the club and Todd, it does bring a smile to my face watching him enjoy his football again over the border.

[king canary 7,680]

2 hours ago, Foxy2600 said:

There was also a negative side to Buendia - like when things weren't going so well he'd react in a bad way start blaming other's in the team and be one tackle away from a yellow or even red. His link up play couldn't be faulted but if the player didn't put enough effort into trying to make something happen with his pass they'd just get moaned at. Happened a few times with Todd. I'm sure that hastened his and eventually Todd's departure. Watching Villa this season, Emi seems to have reeled that in - possibly because he's surrounded by players at least as good as him. 

 

I'd argue we actually miss that.

I'd love to see one of our players actually calling out his teammate for the latest lazy ball that goes out of play or the lack of willingness to track a runner.

Players like Emi can drag others up with them. Right now we've got far too many who will shrug and say 'oh well, you tried your best' when their teammates **** up.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

I'd argue we actually miss that.

I'd love to see one of our players actually calling out his teammate for the latest lazy ball that goes out of play or the lack of willingness to track a runner.

Players like Emi can drag others up with them. Right now we've got far too many who will shrug and say 'oh well, you tried your best' when their teammates **** up.

That includes the Board I'm afraid.

[Monty13 2,252]

On 14/05/2023 at 21:25, Hairy Canary said:

Absolutely, impossible to disagree with that, but to end up without the player or the money is a management disaster 

It nearly always is. I don’t necessarily blame the managers, some people are much harder to manage than others and sometimes you make mistakes managing them that are hard to turnaround.

When a talented person leaves an organisation it’s so much easier to blame that person for leaving than admit mistakes were made managing them. I don’t expect any public acknowledgment of this, but I hope things were learnt behind the scenes.

Edit: Posted this elsewhere but relevant to this discussion I feel.

The only thing particularly unique about footballers is their profession. 

People are people. I always find it amusing when supporters say things like “they’re professionals”…so are most people in their field.

If you manage a team every single individual is different to at least some extent and you have to adapt to what motivates them and what their aspirations are.

Some people are quiet and reserved, some are fiery, passionate and speak without thinking. There’s everything in-between.

When it comes to the job that’s for leaders to manage to get the most out of them. We’d probably all like to manage only easy going employees, but that might not be the best mix for success.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Monty13

[......and Smith must score. 1,361]

3 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

No matter what happened between the club and Todd, it does bring a smile to my face watching him enjoy his football again over the border.

While it lasts 

[Greavsy 2,441]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/10671447/brother-rangers-todd-cantwell-tweet-deleted/

Looks like being a bell end on social media runs in the family.... 

[sgncfc 1,259]

On 14/05/2023 at 20:39, Hairy Canary said:

Far too simplistic in my view.

Emi wanted to go. He felt he could do better and made that obvious and we got a good fee.

Unfortunately, however unpalatable it is to hear, Cantwell is a management failure. He may well have been difficult to get the best out of, but the people paid very highly to do that failed miserably. Our management team couldn’t figure what was needed to maximise what we had with Cantwell (motivate, cajole, discipline, encourage, sympathise - whatever). If they tried all they could and it was clear they couldn’t manage him then they should have made that known much, much sooner and he could have been sold for big money. We had a talent that should have been worth millions to the club but instead we ended up with neither the player nor the fee. That is a huge waste for a club our size.

You may be right. Equally, you may be wrong. Cantwell had been at the club since he was 10 years old. I suspect that during that 15 or so years the various management and coaching regimes at the club may have reached some conclusions about him. I also suspect they tried everything they could.

He wouldn't sign a new contract. The rumour at the time was that he wasn't being offered enough. If the coaches really believed in this talented player we would have offered him more and valued him more. Clearly they didn't.

I repeat that so far he has done nothing to suggest they were wrong - most of our players would stand out in the games he has so far played for Rangers.

Players fall out of favour, are sold, moved on all the time. Yes, we should have sold him last summer, but I don't recall reading about too much interest in him after his "no show" at Bournemouth.

Being a very cynical soul, I think he downed tools after we sold Buendia and just went through the motions. I don't think you can blame the club for that - you can blame the emotionally retarded player or his agents.

[Hairy Canary 711]

51 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

You may be right. Equally, you may be wrong. Cantwell had been at the club since he was 10 years old. I suspect that during that 15 or so years the various management and coaching regimes at the club may have reached some conclusions about him. I also suspect they tried everything they could.

He wouldn't sign a new contract. The rumour at the time was that he wasn't being offered enough. If the coaches really believed in this talented player we would have offered him more and valued him more. Clearly they didn't.

I repeat that so far he has done nothing to suggest they were wrong - most of our players would stand out in the games he has so far played for Rangers.

Players fall out of favour, are sold, moved on all the time. Yes, we should have sold him last summer, but I don't recall reading about too much interest in him after his "no show" at Bournemouth.

Being a very cynical soul, I think he downed tools after we sold Buendia and just went through the motions. I don't think you can blame the club for that - you can blame the emotionally retarded player or his agents.

I get that sgncfc and pretty much agree with all of it.

I know I’m suggesting this with the benefit of hindsight but there should have been a point between Webber publicly stating he was worth £30m and him going for free when the penny dropped that he needed to be sold. The problems could very well be down to Cantwell or his agents but the club’s management should have seen they couldn’t resolve them much sooner and got a decent fee.

Just think we let him go for nothing! 

[king canary 7,680]

6 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

I get that sgncfc and pretty much agree with all of it.

I know I’m suggesting this with the benefit of hindsight but there should have been a point between Webber publicly stating he was worth £30m and him going for free when the penny dropped that he needed to be sold. The problems could very well be down to Cantwell or his agents but the club’s management should have seen they couldn’t resolve them much sooner and got a decent fee.

Just think we let him go for nothing! 

It always felt off to me that you had Webber quite publicly digging out a 22 year old player for his reaction to being relegated. I'm honestly not surprised Cantwell didn't feel supported after that.

I don't doubt that he probably is/was a headache. But so are lots of players. As has already been said I really hope the club has learned some lessons here.

[Mello Yello 2,303]

Maybe Todd initially got a bit of a hump when there was talk of interest in Max from sunnier climes and little interest in him....?

[Google Bot 3,329]

12 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Maybe Todd initially got a bit of a hump when there was talk of interest in Max from sunnier climes and little interest in him....?

I thought the story was that he was set to leave and then we received the large offer for Emi, so was then told he was staying with the promise of us building around his talent.

However, We then went on to progress as squad where he wasn't such an easy fit and thus found himself on the fringes, in his eyes stalling his career and wanting out on that basis.

Add in a few heated conversations and fall-outs to season.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Google Bot

[rock bus 854]

I just hope he is happy and enjoying his football again. Life’s too short to hold grudges against any one, let alone someone you dont even know!

[Mello Yello 2,303]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

I thought the story was that he was set to leave and then we received the large offer for Emi, so was then told he was staying with the promise of us building around his talent.

However, We then went on to progress as squad where he wasn't such an easy fit and thus found himself on the fringes, in his eyes stalling his career and wanting out on that basis.

Add in a few heated conversations and fall-outs to season.

I also think regarding Todd our ever so popular SD/DoF or The Club's Divine Being or whatever he thinks he is....didn't help the cause...

[Robert N. LiM 4,511]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

It always felt off to me that you had Webber quite publicly digging out a 22 year old player for his reaction to being relegated. I'm honestly not surprised Cantwell didn't feel supported after that.

It always interests me that there are people on this board who will blame Webber for absolutely everything, except whatever it was that happened with Todd.

[Harry53 212]

Loved the phrase "he was fetched up". What language is that?

[Mello Yello 2,303]

48 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

It always interests me that there are people on this board who will blame Webber for absolutely everything, except whatever it was that happened with Todd.

Nah, just blame Stu for just 90% of nearly absolutely everything....

[Mengo 825]

On 14/05/2023 at 17:25, Hairy Canary said:

Absolutely, impossible to disagree with that, but to end up without the player or the money is a management disaster 

An  absolute utter cluster fÙçķ