Farke to be sacked

[Mr Tea 105]

The one thing that would have happened had DF stayed was it would have been toxic at CR . More people would have started to blame him but by letting him go it then became clear the team wasnt up to it .

It saddened me when the news come out but also felt relief for him.

Much as id love to have him back i cant see it working and Webber would never let it happen anyhow .

We move on.

[Mengo 825]

6 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

What Webber should have done was take his head out of his arrogant a$$ and admit that the players bought for Farke to replace 8 highly, highly influential players utterly pivotal to our success, were woefully inadequate to compete at the highest level, let alone get results against Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal. And that a knee jerk reaction and sacking Farke was not the correct decision at the time.

Of all the things Webber has done, and lets not forget he has overseen one of the best periods in our history, relatively speaking, but sacking Farke and appointing Smith was a catastrophic error and grounds for dismissal.

Its the stock market equivalent of a bad trade costing the firm millions and millions. Im sure a trader would be relieved of his duties in that scenario.

Webber seems to be beyond reproach however with the current state of nepotism within the club.

I am of the opinion that had Farke not been sacked, we may well still have gone down as I believe the squad was not capable, but we would have made more of a fight of it than we did under Smith (Southampton away anyone).

We would have then gone into this last season with the leagues most.  savvy operator. 

💯💥👏👏👏👏👏Great Post. Beyond reproach. He is the poison within this club. He is lost in the big world of football. Without being surrounded with more mature clever people , he just cannot cut it. Yes sir no sir . Its a pathetic state of affairs . The being is an out and out imposter. Get rid or the cancer grows.

[hogesar 9,743]

25 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Operative clause.

What since then?

Besides, I haven't eaten my toad sandwich yet so am thinking that maybe he struck lucky by appointing Farke in the first place. Was it a risky stab in the dark? ... it's what chancers do after all (see above.)

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

[king canary 7,672]

23 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

What Webber should have done was take his head out of his arrogant a$$ and admit that the players bought for Farke to replace 8 highly, highly influential players utterly pivotal to our success, were woefully inadequate to compete at the highest level, let alone get results against Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal. And that a knee jerk reaction and sacking Farke was not the correct decision at the time.

Firstly, you've surely got to understand that would be a very weird thing for him to do? If he went to the board after 10 games with 2 points and said 'folks, it turns out I've spent £60m on a bunch of dross and actually these results are the best we can expect' then I imagine they'd have binned him on the spot. 

Secondly I'm struggling with this idea he was replacing 8 influential players. Bunedia, Skipp sure. Other than that who are we talking? Vrancic? Stipermann? 

27 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

I am of the opinion that had Farke not been sacked, we may well still have gone down as I believe the squad was not capable, but we would have made more of a fight of it than we did under Smith (Southampton away anyone).

I'm not sure I share that but obviously can't be proven either way. We certainly didn't put up much a fight under Farke the last time we went down.

[Mengo 825]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

Simple question Hoggy. I admire your dedication to the stu cause. As you know I don't agree with a great deal of it . Back to the question . DO YOU THINK WE WOULD FALL APART IF WEBBER 🚶‍♂️🚶‍♀️ Walked. ??. If you do could you explain why. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mengo

[BroadstairsR 2,205]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

You really have it bad.

Nobody is denying the initial impact, through luck or judgement, that Webber's influence had on the club.

It was marvellous, it happens, but since that glorious period little of any worth seems to have embellished the scene to the extent that the bones are showing through and the man's real worth has evolved as being inadequate, unpopular and, most of all, very, very expensive for a club destined for the time being to exist on meagre means in the context of the top echelons of the professional game that he himself has aspired to (top 26 and all that.) 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

I feel that what Mr Bowkett and Mr Mac achieved, far exceeds what Mr Stu's done....so there!

[Google Bot 3,301]

49 minutes ago, Mr Tea said:

The one thing that would have happened had DF stayed was it would have been toxic at CR

Could've got 3 points vs Southampton in the next home match, too, so you can't be certain of such things. 

[Virtual reality 716]

41 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

Unfortunately for us it very much appears that the Stuart Webber that oversaw these times is not the Stuart Webber we have now. In the same way that a player who was a great prospect can go stale ( Deli Ali ) Webber seems to have lost his mojo.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Virtual reality

[Harry53 211]

I follow MA on twitter and I will write to him suggesting DF replaces SW as DOF. 

I doubt he will read it,  but worth a shot. He must be concerned having SW as DOF and in control of the purse. Look at the debt we are in,  and who's fault is that? Exactly.

[tea total 79]

Why does everyone keep saying that Farke wasn't very good tactically! Our players could do it in the Championship but how can you expect his tactics to work when the money wasn't spent on better players? That's a really poor statement imo. A lot of the players we had weren't good enough to step up to the top level. You can't carry players at elite level. Farke had to try and cover for areas where we were tactically not good enough. I honestly don't know what people expected! Farke maybe should've let Idah loose after his hat trick v Preston as he's been left on the sidelines too many times imo and that's affected his development. But with the money constraints Farke had to work under he performed above and beyond all expectations. A lot of those who wanted Farke out have realised that it 'could've' been the wrong decision maybe 🤔

As for Wagner, you can't judge him until he has his own squad playing his own brand of football! No guarantees in football that any signing is going to work but we've done okay. 

[Barbe bleu 832]

55 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

I find it hard to apportion blame or praise without knowing for sure just how much involvement the various people had on each deal.

Did webber just turn up with buendia one day and shout 'surprise' or was it more of a collaborative thing?

 

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,205]

8 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I find it hard to apportion blame or praise without knowing for sure just how much involvement the various people had on each deal.

Did webber just turn up with buendia one day and shout 'surprise' or was it more of a collaborative thing?

 

 

 

Also, didn't I once read that Ed Balls was the prime mover in the German link up or is that a memory lapse?

[Worthy Nigelton 1,063]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

Good post. Webber is under pressure for the failures of the last two years and if he gets it wrong this summer he should 100% be fired and we should move on.... BUT, let's not re-write history. He's signed some excellent players and is hugely responsible for two amazing seasons.

My biggest issue with him was sacking Farke and his communication skills. His comments about McNally and 90% etc were very poor and always likely to come back and bite him. McNally as it stands has the greater legacy IMO.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Worthy Nigelton

[king canary 7,672]

2 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Also, didn't I once read that Ed Balls was the prime mover in the German link up or is that a memory lapse?

Balls was the one who suggested the move to this structure apparently.

[Yobocop 1,105]

52 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

I feel that what Mr Bowkett and Mr Mac achieved, far exceeds what Mr Stu's done....so there!

I don’t think there’s any doubting what they achieved but Webber has taken it on another level 

not sure Webber will get tanked up in the edith cavell and start tweeting norwich fans either but you never know lol 

[repman 635]

I think Webber is possibly one of these people who believe that manager's aren't actually important, or that their contribution to success is very small. The people who believe this will often point to wage bill tables and say that actually it's the teams with the most money who do well, this was Webber's rationale after the 19/20 season and I believe our increased wage bill compared to other PL clubs in 21/22 meant he had to sack Farke.

It's also why I think his managerial appointments, in particular the last 2, have felt so lazy. He doesn't have any interest in going out and finding the best coach because he doesn't believe that it matters all that much. You can even look back to Farke's appointment and with hindsight question if he actually did a proper search.

[hogesar 9,743]

36 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I find it hard to apportion blame or praise without knowing for sure just how much involvement the various people had on each deal.

Did webber just turn up with buendia one day and shout 'surprise' or was it more of a collaborative thing?

We will never know, all we know is Farke was very sceptical when Webber claimed he had a better replacement for Pritchard, because he said so himself.

[canarydan23 4,060]

18 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

I don’t think there’s any doubting what they achieved but Webber has taken it on another level 

not sure Webber will get tanked up in the edith cavell and start tweeting norwich fans either but you never know lol 

I don't think it's even close, McNally's overall record at Norwich City is currently better than Webber's. He managed to see us survive in the Premier League for two seasons and yes, when he left we were in a perilous financial state with a hideously bloated wage bill, but we had assets with which to rescue us from the situation, assets acquired or developed under McNally's stewardship.

We're now in a similar position in terms of the league structure but with only Sara and Aarons (acquired before Webber) with any resale value; no Pritchard, Murphys, Maddison to sell and no Aarons, Lewis or Godfrey coming through.

Webber basically has this season to rescue us; if he fails, he will leave and his legacy won't be as impressive as McNally's.

[Matt Morriss 69]

1 hour ago, Mr Tea said:

The one thing that would have happened had DF stayed was it would have been toxic at CR . More people would have started to blame him but by letting him go it then became clear the team wasnt up to it .

It saddened me when the news come out but also felt relief for him.

Much as id love to have him back i cant see it working and Webber would never let it happen anyhow .

We move on.

You dont know that at all and are just surmising. There is no evidence that the fans would have turned on Farke the way we did on Smith.

To suggest things would have gone toxic second time round is pure speculation. I actually believe the Brentford win could well have been a turning point. 

Perhaps not survival, as the new players were woefully inadequte as we all know now,  but I believe we would have improved from that first 10 games. Under Smith not only did we not improve at all, we massively regressed. 

It took Farke 15 months in charge to get us to tick, and once he had gotten a whole new team it still took time.

Farke got another new team when the old charge left, 8 players remember not just Skipp and Emi. And he was given 10 games to make it work. In a far tougher, more unforgiving league.

He was given 15 months first time round. That second season 5 games in and we werent looking good. Then he changed it with the Pukki/Stiepermann swap and it was lift off. 

But the 2nd Prem season he gets 10 games, with that first 6 run in, with the likes of Gilmour, Rashica, Tzolis and Sargent.

I think even Pep and Klopp would have struggled.

 

[Matt Morriss 69]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

This is all spot on, but with the exception of Sara, Webber hasnt had a good signing since Skipp 2 years ago, and that was on loan. 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

33 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

I don’t think there’s any doubting what they achieved but Webber has taken it on another level 

not sure Webber will get tanked up in the edith cavell and start tweeting norwich fans either but you never know lol 

Nah Zoe's got him covered....

[Matt Morriss 69]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Firstly, you've surely got to understand that would be a very weird thing for him to do? If he went to the board after 10 games with 2 points and said 'folks, it turns out I've spent £60m on a bunch of dross and actually these results are the best we can expect' then I imagine they'd have binned him on the spot. 

Secondly I'm struggling with this idea he was replacing 8 influential players. Bunedia, Skipp sure. Other than that who are we talking? Vrancic? Stipermann? 

I'm not sure I share that but obviously can't be proven either way. We certainly didn't put up much a fight under Farke the last time we went down.

Skipp, Buendia, Tettey, Stiepermann, Vrancic, Hernandez, Cantwell (remained but not really), Rupp (lesser extent).

Perhaps not the full 8 were highly influential players however they were the bedrock of the first 11 for the two championship winning seasons. When you replace those players with what we did, with only Kabak having any Prem or English football experience, it was never going to work.

The previous years the players had a full Championship winning season to gel. Farke had 7/8 new players to gel and quick. It was madness.

[Matt Morriss 69]

59 minutes ago, repman said:

I think Webber is possibly one of these people who believe that manager's aren't actually important, or that their contribution to success is very small. The people who believe this will often point to wage bill tables and say that actually it's the teams with the most money who do well, this was Webber's rationale after the 19/20 season and I believe our increased wage bill compared to other PL clubs in 21/22 meant he had to sack Farke.

It's also why I think his managerial appointments, in particular the last 2, have felt so lazy. He doesn't have any interest in going out and finding the best coach because he doesn't believe that it matters all that much. You can even look back to Farke's appointment and with hindsight question if he actually did a proper search.

Good point, cant knock Webber at all for the Farke appointment, but he did basically just do the same thing he did at Huddersfield and raided Borussia Dortmund II. 

He then went with Wagner again. It does look like lazy recruitment.

[Yobocop 1,105]

39 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Nah Zoe's got him covered....

Bit different when he was getting goaded in person to McScally taking to Twitter after 17 pints  but take your point 

[king canary 7,672]

22 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Skipp, Buendia, Tettey, Stiepermann, Vrancic, Hernandez, Cantwell (remained but not really), Rupp (lesser extent).

Perhaps not the full 8 were highly influential players however they were the bedrock of the first 11 for the two championship winning seasons. When you replace those players with what we did, with only Kabak having any Prem or English football experience, it was never going to work.

The previous years the players had a full Championship winning season to gel. Farke had 7/8 new players to gel and quick. It was madness.

Errrm...Rupp was still there? So was Cantwell? So it is actually six players we're talking about. Trybull had been loaned out the season before so clearly wasn't a 'key player' even before promotion. Tettey started 5 games the season before, Hernandez 6, Stiepermann 12. Only Vrancic could be considered more than a squad player from that season. 

It is a wild stretch to claim Webber got rid of 8 players who were 'utterly pivotal' to our success when 2 of them were still here and 3 of them had made less than 15 starts the previous season.

I can buy the arguement that we tried to add too many players in one window but the rest is just not really true.

[TheBaldOne66 697]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

So let's say he got lucky with Farke.

He then got lucky with Pukki too right?

And then we sold Pritchard. Webber confidently told Farke he had a better replacement lined up. Farke wasn't happy...

Emi walked through the door.

So Emi, he was lucky too?

We needed a Centre Half to challenge for promotion. In comes Hanley and Zimmerman. Luck of the draw too?

But what's a good defensive partnership without an experience goalkeeper. Ah, but we can't afford one. Tim Krul a lucky stab too? 

But we had so many players to replace too. I'm guessing Vrancic with all those assists and goals, despite being derided as League One standard by some who watched him and posted on this forum......Webber rolled another dice and struck gold?

I guess the same must apply to Stiepermann, Onel Hernandez, Trybull and Leitner.

Those loan signings of Gibson and Skipp really hindered us the second promotion season....

I always think if we're going to have a sensible discussion, let's not pretend the good things didn't happen. We can still acknowledge what he's got wrong since without making things up about the past.

And yet the list of failures signed by Webber is larger, Roberts, Edwards, Fahrmann, Passlack, Amadou, Drmic, Gilmour, Normann, Hayden all contributed very little if anything but you still seem to laud Webber as great. Quite bizarre really. I’m sure I missed a few failures too off the list 

[Mason 47 1,398]

There is no magic wand for transfers. Generally I think it's accepted that more don't work out fully than do.

There were definitely problems in the recruitment that second PL season, however many people easily forget the pre-season buzz over our signings was quite palpable. Very knowledgeable people outside the club were even saying, Rashica? Kabak? Gilmour? How are Norwich attracting these players?

It is unusual for every single signing to flop. You could perhaps argue that Williams was OK (a lot of that comes via his passion imo) but honestly the only signing at the time that felt a bit dodgy was Normann. Injury record, Russian league, suspicious abs. Aside from that, without the benefit of hindsight, it seemed a great window.

It's an interesting situation for me now, in fairness, as I back those in charge for this rebuild whilst at the time not being overly keen on all-but-confirmed Barnes- who the majority is really happy with. Webber out?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

To be honest, I'd laugh and laugh if we found ourselves with Farke at the start of next season.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

To be honest, I'd laugh and laugh if we found ourselves with Farke at the start of next season.

You have a strange sense of humour