5 reasons Wagner should go

[The Raptor 1,211]

He should stay. 62 points is what farke got in his first year and Wagners only had half a season. 

 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,434]

I didn’t think it would be this bad. I was persuaded that our players were good enough for top 2

Having seen the relegation form, the ease which Rotherham and Blackpool stopped us playing effectively , the terrible individual performances of several players I’m now not so sure.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Graham Paddons Beard

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

12 minutes ago, The Raptor said:

He should stay. 62 points is what farke got in his first year and Wagners only had half a season. 

 

With Farke you could see what he was trying to do- and there were glimpses of hope. He also had players of low value - totally opposite of Wagner who has most expensive squad in division with several who’ve done it before and who shows zero clue of what he is trying to do. In my decades following NCFC I cannot remember worse subs etc 

[Capt. Pants 4,250]

26 minutes ago, The Raptor said:

He should stay. 62 points is what farke got in his first year and Wagners only had half a season. 

 

Had it not been for Dean Smith's points, God knows what state we would have been in. 

Worst manager since Roeder.

[Tommo 51]

I for one didn’t want Wagner in the first place.
 

however listening to his post march interview he in so many words was describing in my opinion that a lot of the current playing personnel have been together too long, too set in their ways/methods, aren’t prepared to embrace his tougher training regime etc.  

therefore the squad needs a major overhaul with the right characters coming in who do take this on and bring players , particularly those with unfulfilled potential to kick on. Idah is a prime example - Sargeant still developing and Pukki a completely different striker. Getting Barnes in will hopefully help him. 

 

we need to get behind this project reset and forget what has played out in the last few weeks. Yes it has been completely unacceptable the last few weeks but Wagner has inherited a stagnant squad, players with the negatives of experiencing relegation and it would seem unwilling to change their ways to meet Wagner demands. 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Why build it with this manager? Why give HIM benefit of the doubt. He’s been woeful. Zero credit in bank means he won’t get many games before it goes toxic, in a quarter of a season he has delivered some of the worst stats in history. He failed badly at last two clubs. I see ZERO reason he stays. To put this hapless manager in charge of the next phase is to throw good money after bad 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Dean Coneys boots

[Tommo 51]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

Why build it with this manager? Zero credit in bank means he won’t get many games before it goes toxic, in a quarter of a season he has delivered some of the worst stats in history. He failed badly at last two clubs. I see ZERO reason he stays. To put this hapless manager in church of the next phase is to throw good money after bad 

I do get this and if he was to go then I can’t imagine many would think it was harsh given the horrendous stats.  It has been bad and on a decline though since the final weeks of Farke, who’s head was being called for after his first season.  Psychologically many of the current personnel have experienced 1 if not 2 relegations here and the belief and desire to go and push for promotion again hasn’t been there.
 

the reality is like a lot have said, Webber and Wagner are not going anywhere. So my post is more trying to come to terms with this fact and what the mitigating circumstances could well be to having such a shambolic end to the season 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Fair enough you are entitled to that view. But my own is that under Wagner we get relegated. Stats at present favour my argument over yours which is more based on hope against all evidence. Bottom line… it’s a right mess and given the opportunities we’ve had in last few years that is totally unacceptable. 

[Tommo 51]

10 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Fair enough you are entitled to that view. But my own is that under Wagner we get relegated. Stats at present favour my argument over yours which is more based on hope against all evidence. Bottom line… it’s a right mess and given the opportunities we’ve had in last few years that is totally unacceptable. 

The stats I agree are indisputably favouring the removal of Wagner. The feeling of lack of ambition from the very top is what ultimately has to filter into the players mentalities eventually. Being a yo-yo club cannot be sustained . With the benefit of hindsight the sale of Buendia on the back of a successful promotion is the ultimate definition to the players that we lack ambition and are just happy to flit between the two leagues. 
trying to motivate this group of players whether it be Wagner or another manager to have turned this season around I think would have been a virtually impossible task. 
 

 

[repman 635]

3 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Now take this how you will, but I've heard from a person who's friendly with a player leaving the club this summer that Wagner is not at all popular with the players.

It's not necessarily a bad thing but it's a very unhappy camp.

Wagner has to get his own lackies in. Personally I think he's a gonna.

10 games not top 6 then he's gone. I'd sack him now though.

This wouldn't shock me at all.

I viewed the sudden talk of a rebuild as a way for both Webber and Wagner to push the blame onto the players. 

The way he made no subs vs Swansea when he'd been completely out-coached by Russ Martin was another example. He showed his true colours that day I thought, the players hadn't played well but it wasn't for the want of trying. Instead he sent them out 1 down to run around in 2 banks trying to keep the score down to cover his own failure.

[Duncan Edwards 2,237]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

With Farke you could see what he was trying to do- and there were glimpses of hope. He also had players of low value - totally opposite of Wagner who has most expensive squad in division with several who’ve done it before and who shows zero clue of what he is trying to do. In my decades following NCFC I cannot remember worse subs etc 

Completely agree that you could see the foundations of Farke’s ideology but did he really have “low value” players? I mean, sure Watkins, Husband etc but didn’t he still have Maddison, Josh and even Oliveira? It all sort of merges but was Pritchard still in the building or did we sell him prior? He also had some extremely valuable youth assets coming through, Lewis, Godfrey and *cough* Cantwell. I don’t dispute that we’ve bought some tosh but we weren’t exactly playing Poundshop players.

But we signed Emi, didn’t we? And Pukki. But Emi was the signing. We won’t find one of those every year. Every five years. Probably every 10 years. But exit Emi is the point of change, didn’t and COULDN’T replace him. Would have cost more than we sold him for to replace him with a proven option. Should have got more for him, a £50m player if ever we’ve had one.

How we need another one now. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

By the time we play again at home it will be over 6 months that we’ve not scored at home. That’s reason enough. 

[repman 635]

2 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Completely agree that you could see the foundations of Farke’s ideology but did he really have “low value” players? I mean, sure Watkins, Husband etc but didn’t he still have Maddison, Josh and even Oliveira? It all sort of merges but was Pritchard still in the building or did we sell him prior? He also had some extremely valuable youth assets coming through, Lewis, Godfrey and *cough* Cantwell. I don’t dispute that we’ve bought some tosh but we weren’t exactly playing Poundshop players.

But we signed Emi, didn’t we? And Pukki. But Emi was the signing. We won’t find one of those every year. Every five years. Probably every 10 years. But exit Emi is the point of change, didn’t and COULDN’T replace him. Would have cost more than we sold him for to replace him with a proven option. Should have got more for him, a £50m player if ever we’ve had one.

How we need another one now. 

I don't think Farke was as great a coach as some and I think he was definitely made to look better by the Emi/Pukki combination. But one area he was superb was his commitment and coaching of young players. No manager wants to play young players, they'd rather go for experienced heads who are less likely to make mistakes but Farke was clearly a bit better than most in this regard. Look at his record over that time with how our young players have progressed (or haven't rather) this year. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

Like with Farke and Smith he's a builder and not an immediate fixer. I've always had an admittedly two dimensional fans opinion on how we can improve under most other managers. I have no idea what I'm talking about in terms of football, I couldn't manage an under 5's team but to me it seemed obvious before in previous regimes. Under Hughton attack at pace on the counter instead of always playing for set pieces, under Neil stop leaving the FB's so exposed, under Farke run off the ball instead of always jogging back or expecting a team mate to win it back, win the ball back instead of waiting in position for someone else to do it etc. But with this team? I'd have no idea where to even begin. I find it hard to critisize Wagner because I don't know how you'd get a winning team out of this lot. Where do you even begin with this lot? 

i'm willing to give him most of next season to get it right with hopefully his team because this current lot are a complete lost cause. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

With Farke you could see what he was trying to do- and there were glimpses of hope. He also had players of low value - totally opposite of Wagner who has most expensive squad in division with several who’ve done it before and who shows zero clue of what he is trying to do. In my decades following NCFC I cannot remember worse subs etc 

I think that's part of the problem. Too many players with baggage, who have been promoted a couple of times before only to get hammered once there. Will they have the same hunger and motivation as a player that has never reached the Premier League and is desperate to get there?

That said, a few of those will still be here next season. You could argue that we need their leadership, but you could also argue we need a fresh start.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

55 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

By the time we play again at home it will be over 6 months that we’ve not scored at home. That’s reason enough. 

And for three months of those six we'll have been below the binners...

[Mason 47 1,384]

45 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think that's part of the problem. Too many players with baggage, who have been promoted a couple of times before only to get hammered once there. Will they have the same hunger and motivation as a player that has never reached the Premier League and is desperate to get there?

That said, a few of those will still be here next season. You could argue that we need their leadership, but you could also argue we need a fresh start.

I think there definitely is a big psychological component to our current situation. There's an achingly obvious lack of confidence throughout the side, no sense of flow.

I'd say its pretty obvious that this group is psychologically shattered, no better demonstrated today by the amount of over-thought and under-thought passes flying about. Some players trying to do it all themselves, some players concentrating so hard on not making mistakes that they barely contribute, and yet others just happy to get the ball as far away from them as they can.

The changes ring.

[NeymarSmith 130]

I was.a Wagner in man from the first hint of a rumour. Very strongly disliked DS, so much so that it wasn't even worth the watch (Canary call being the god.send at.moaning about him,.as was on here - and rightly so , he was useless)

 

But it's not worked. Let's make use of the rolling one year. Under.wagner there still isn't a clear style (to our liking as well) he has lost faith in us, and we have him - as said above. New start, we need to. Balls to not giving him long enough and if we sack him early others.wont come. They will. It's over.

Go get Knutsen. Or mark Robbins (hes the only one we have been previously linked to and got into playoffs) or Warnock (tin hat and ofcourse not the right horse for this course, although best keep his number handy say come Feb we are lower than 16th, but that won't happen right?)

 

It must be SW's only move left to swing the pendulum in his way. If he does nothing and it festers, it will go to sh1 at CR, Wagner gone too late and SW's legacy tarnished and a better.job than Norwich being well off the cards. 

Sticking with Wagner, even if it goes well, hmm I don't think will land him a better job or make the fans love him. Maybe if he changes now, those outside of yellow and green may think he knows what he is doing and is a strong leader. Increases his currency if the new gamble manger does well.

If he gambles and gets a new person in, he will be hailed as dynamic and can recognise the issues. Again I think from outside yellow and green. we.wont be buying our way out of this issue that's for sure, and all the family silver has gone. The  crown Jewell of yesta-year have gone. Good money,.poorly spent with Ben Godfrey. After the p155 up the wall comment, that aged well. Then an emi shaped hole at a time where we had to hold onto him, even for one more year, Fulham don't sell mitrovic or Brentford sell Toney, vital to staying up. A gentleman's agreement? Oh come on, pay him some money for a year more. Todd walked for free. Aaron's will either walk next year for nothing or we.will take a.fraction of what could of been. Probably ten. Wow. 

 

Rant over ! Otbc

[K Lo 224]

5 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Webber isn't going anywhere we know that, despite the fans chants.

Wagner is the wrong appointment, really poor. Let's not waste more time on him.

Odd that considering it was Webber who said he'd only be around for 5 years or so and then he'd **** off to Germany and we were all wanting him to stay, now it's the other way round !

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

6 hours ago, K Lo said:

Odd that considering it was Webber who said he'd only be around for 5 years or so and then he'd **** off to Germany and we were all wanting him to stay, now it's the other way round !

Is it Because then he was believing his own hype and thought he was too good for us- an arrogance that I suspect might have caused toxicity within the club hence many good staff left including excellent recruitment team- but now he realises nobody else wants him as he’s been found out since actually recruiting himself?
 

Anyone thinking a good season is guaranteed by a summer of more Webber recruiting and Wagner coaching is deluded 

[hogesar 9,687]

13 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Fair enough you are entitled to that view. But my own is that under Wagner we get relegated. Stats at present favour my argument over yours which is more based on hope against all evidence. Bottom line… it’s a right mess and given the opportunities we’ve had in last few years that is totally unacceptable. 

We can have a charity bet on getting relegated next season? I think I offered the same to you in Farke's second season, which ironically you now state you could see what he was trying to do.

Not that Wagner has done enough to impress anyone.

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

15 hours ago, The Raptor said:

He should stay. 62 points is what farke got in his first year and Wagners only had half a season. 

 

Wagner didn’t accumulate all of them points though

[king canary 7,609]

If we decide to keep Wagner then we need to do two things...

1. Build a squad in his image- so that means players with a willingness to press high, have that energy etc.
2. Have a shortlist of managers who play a similar style should Wagner need to be replaced.

The whole point of this SD model is to dictate an overall style of play and minimise disruption in managerial transitions (which incidently is one of Webber's biggest failings in this role but that is another subject). If Wagner's vision is the vision we want to build then we need to stick with that vision even if we don't stick with Wagner.

[hogesar 9,687]

17 minutes ago, king canary said:

If we decide to keep Wagner then we need to do two things...

1. Build a squad in his image- so that means players with a willingness to press high, have that energy etc.
2. Have a shortlist of managers who play a similar style should Wagner need to be replaced.

The whole point of this SD model is to dictate an overall style of play and minimise disruption in managerial transitions (which incidently is one of Webber's biggest failings in this role but that is another subject). If Wagner's vision is the vision we want to build then we need to stick with that vision even if we don't stick with Wagner.

This is key. We don't have the financial resource to rebuild for another style of play. I note Zoe's Boardroom notes specifically mention the style of play, so that's surely going to be a future-proofing thought process for them.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

This is key. We don't have the financial resource to rebuild for another style of play. I note Zoe's Boardroom notes specifically mention the style of play, so that's surely going to be a future-proofing thought process for them.

that is one of Webbers biggest failings 

Went from Farke Style to Smith Style then we need Wagner type players in as these do not suit his style 

when all the time we were told right at the start Webber did not want this to happen and Head coach job would be less disruptive if changed 

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

29 minutes ago, king canary said:

If we decide to keep Wagner then we need to do two things...

1. Build a squad in his image- so that means players with a willingness to press high, have that energy etc.
2. Have a shortlist of managers who play a similar style should Wagner need to be replaced.

The whole point of this SD model is to dictate an overall style of play and minimise disruption in managerial transitions (which incidently is one of Webber's biggest failings in this role but that is another subject). If Wagner's vision is the vision we want to build then we need to stick with that vision even if we don't stick with Wagner.

This is why I see Webber as the one who should go right now rather than Wagner.  The SD is meant to make sure that changes in coaches work with the squad that the SD has assembled to minimise disruption.  But, it's clear to me now that Dean Smith was a completely different style of coach than Farke - Farke wanted to drill them very precisely in how to play (especially in possession) but Smith wanted to talk to them about how to approach games and to expect the players to take the lead (it seems from his comments plus the way the team played) which was a 180 change from the Farke style.  It seems now Wagner is a lot more full on in his approach than Smith although I'm not yet sure exactly how he does approach it with the players.

 

You can understand the players struggling with this sort of zig-zag approach to coaching.

 

Another massive problem for the last few months is how mentally fragile this team is, which has for obvious reasons got worse since we lost Hanley etc.  It seems every game for ages the reports talk about us playing brightly and creating chances, and then conceding the first goal and losing.

[lake district canary 4,536]

14 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

that is one of Webbers biggest failings 

Went from Farke Style to Smith Style then we need Wagner type players in as these do not suit his style 

when all the time we were told right at the start Webber did not want this to happen and Head coach job would be less disruptive if changed 

Yes, Webber's fault. To mitigate that, it seemed at the time as if Smith was saying all the right things, as he probably did at the interview, lots of knowledge, plenty of experience, but just failed in putting it into practice - but Webber should have been able to see through that. Smith is hardly a big character.

I do wonder what he would have done had not Smith become "miraculously" available.  No Lampard, no Smith, so who? It just makes the Farke sacking seem more bizarre than ever.

Edited May 9, 2023 by lake district canary

[S_81 803]

26 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, Webber's fault. To mitigate that, it seemed at the time as if Smith was saying all the right things, as he probably did at the interview, lots of knowledge, plenty of experience, but just failed in putting it into practice - but Webber should have been able to see through that. Smith is hardly a big character.

I do wonder what he would have done had not Smith become "miraculously" available.  No Lampard, no Smith, so who? It just makes the Farke sacking seem more bizarre than ever.

Yes it remains such an odd sacking without a contingency plan. Smith certainly wasn’t the target. 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

20 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, Webber's fault. To mitigate that, it seemed at the time as if Smith was saying all the right things, as he probably did at the interview, lots of knowledge, plenty of experience, but just failed in putting it into practice - but Webber should have been able to see through that. Smith is hardly a big character.

I do wonder what he would have done had not Smith become "miraculously" available.  No Lampard, no Smith, so who? It just makes the Farke sacking seem more bizarre than ever.

Webber should of had a short list of managers at all times head coaches that play your way you have noticed kept a eye on to continue the work 

That is what we are told that the club keeps a eye out across the world for head coach talent 

we might not need them when Farke was doing well but if he left or as it happen sacked we would have someone to step in straight away 

now that list will change managers etc we get new jobs and come off the list but it should be a ever changing short list 

Zoe Webber Must think we came up the River Yare in a Mustard boat if she thinks we believe they looked around world football and Smith & Wagner was the best  Head coaches for the role 

 

[Harry53 209]

17 hours ago, Virtual reality said:

He shouldn’t be here next season. He’s been a disastrous appointment and had more that enough time to show what he’s got. Warnock went into Huddersfield and has been a revelation with a struggling team. Wagner has shown absolutely nothing. Give a new manager the summer to bring new players In with a fresh start next season. If Wagner is here he will have to hit the ground running as like Smith before him, He has very little credit in the bank 

Let's get Warnock in !!! Someone who can make a difference. DW can't even work out how we are supposed to score a goal!!!