match thread *official lappinitup match thread Terriers V Canaries*

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,761]

Seems an odd thing to say a mere week and a half after that battling win at The Den....but these players look as though they lack the belief they can finish top 6

[Yellow Fever 3,791]

I think our 'new manager bounce' has ended.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Here's the sending off.

 

Clearly not a sending off. Must appeal that one.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Can't really train fitness into players mid/late season. Wagner's gonna need a whole pre-season of making them sweat buckets and a screaming tonne of Tabata work. Then he might be able to mould them into something resembling his style at Huddersfield. Mid-season - nope.

[Captain Holt 522]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't really train fitness into players mid/late season. Wagner's gonna need a whole pre-season of making them sweat buckets and a screaming tonne of Tabata work. Then he might be able to mould them into something resembling his style at Huddersfield. Mid-season - nope.

Not convinced. We put all our stock in a guy who did one good job 5 years ago! Even a moderate level of defensive organisation would be nice, and should be in place now. It shouldn't need a summer.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't really train fitness into players mid/late season. Wagner's gonna need a whole pre-season of making them sweat buckets and a screaming tonne of Tabata work. Then he might be able to mould them into something resembling his style at Huddersfield. Mid-season - nope.

Players should be fit enough i am sure we spend as much as most clubs on diets chefs fitness coaches doctors medical staff ,

they all wear fitness vests so the club will know all about how fit they are ,

we have wasted Millions and the same problems are here 

we now have little players to sell and money has gone 

Sara price is the only one who we will get a profit from 

Webber has failed with his signings and that is where the buck should stop 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Clearly not a sending off. Must appeal that one.

No, we mustn't appeal. We must hire a psychopathic assassin to murder that ****ing **** dead. Painfully kill him over a period of many hours. ****ing ****.

[jaberry2 550]

So many issues with tonight's display. First half we weren't bad, despite the usual lapses of concentration. Gibson played well before coming off and I thought Sara / Kenny were the only players to come out with any credit. So many players just don't look great at the minute. Sargeant and marquinhos were pretty pants all game. How Sorenson starts ahead of Gibbs is beyond me. I could go on and on

[City 2nd 191]

18 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Binner

Afraid not CC man and boy city supporter for 65 + years. But I predict also Town  will beat city when they return to the championship for next season, which seems very likely.

[Van wink 2,994]

8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think our 'new manager bounce' has ended.

It’s a bear market 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, norfolkngood said:

Players should be fit enough i am sure we spend as much as most clubs on diets chefs fitness coaches doctors medical staff ,

they all wear fitness vests so the club will know all about how fit they are ,

we have wasted Millions and the same problems are here 

we now have little players to sell and money has gone 

Sara price is the only one who we will get a profit from 

Webber has failed with his signings and that is where the buck should stop 

 

Sure, but the Wagner team at Huddersfield pressed very hard. Footballers need to be fit - front-foot pressing like that (and indeed Liverpool, for that matter) needs many of the team to be super-fit.

[repman 635]

We really missed Idah on the left as an outlet in that 2nd half, he had the beating of their full back for pace and it was that what led to the first goal.

[repman 635]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sure, but the Wagner team at Huddersfield pressed very hard. Footballers need to be fit - front-foot pressing like that (and indeed Liverpool, for that matter) needs many of the team to be super-fit.

I don't think our off ball work is the problem right now though, it's that we're bad in possession. he goal we conceded tonight wouldn't have been prevented by a high press. If Wagner can't coach the on ball side of the game (there's no evidence he ever has been able to) then we will always struggle.

[SwindonCanary 455]

We ended up with a draw because we were happy winning 1-0  it would never happen with our boys at the back.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, repman said:

I don't think our off ball work is the problem right now though, it's that we're bad in possession. he goal we conceded tonight wouldn't have been prevented by a high press. If Wagner can't coach the on ball side of the game (there's no evidence he ever has been able to) then we will always struggle.

I'd say the two are somewhat linked assuming reasonable technical ability. Good pass-and-move football needs a lot of fitness. We're ponderous because we're not brisk enough to create the options to move the ball forward with shorter, accurate passes at pace so the game gets slowed down and the opposition can reset.

If you're not consistently brisk enough to move the ball forward in such a way, there's no way you'll pull a high press off either.

[Clever Farke 64]

We only looked ok as first half Huddersfield apart from being rubbish gave us unbelievable amounts of time and space on the ball a half decent side would have put the game out of reach by half time. As it was we only scored the one.  Second half they pressed harried and s- housed and we looked clueless and panicky as we did against Sunderland. If the bottom club can have a simple game plan to stop us playing there is no hope for this season. Big job for Mr W. 

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

We play like utter melts as soon as the opposition presses a bit or get in our faces. 

You aren't getting anywhere with that mentality especially when you're playing the worst team in the league.

[chicken 2,627]

Anyone stating that we need an overhaul will probably end up sorely disappointed.

By that I mean, looking at Attanasio's I don't see him as someone who will come in and splash tons of money about the place. If you throw about 5-8 names out there of who you'd like to see gone, you have to imagine the sort of money needed to replace them AND at least offer as good if not better but with perhaps more age on their side etc.

Is it realistic to think Attanasio will come in and spend say, £20-30m on a squad revamp? I just don't see it personally.

Consistancy has been our biggest issue all season, I'll keep saying it until I am blue in the face. First half was ok, not table topping smashing football but good enough to see a team top 6. 2nd half - less so. And that's been it bar Wagner's arrival/purple patch.

Some others have been saying we are not defensively solid enough - as a team. Hanley is competent at this level with the right player alongside him that compliments him. That, at times, is Gibson. However, if we play the kind of open football we play, it can expose Gibson, Hanley, Omobamidele and anyone else they want to put in there.

As it stands, Hernandez (sorely missed today I feel), Dowell and Pukki are out of contract. How many of those three will stay is anyone's guess.

[shefcanary 2,409]

4 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Pukki droped Idah still starting.

 

I swear to god if Idah does not score or get an assist today..

 

4 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Pukki droped Idah still starting.

 

I swear to god if Idah does not score or get an assist today..

He got an assist. Was better than Sarge who had a mare. Shame he got injured. He's dammed, I tells you.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

14 minutes ago, chicken said:

By that I mean, looking at Attanasio's I don't see him as someone who will come in and splash tons of money about the place. If you throw about 5-8 names out there of who you'd like to see gone, you have to imagine the sort of money needed to replace them AND at least offer as good if not better but with perhaps more age on their side etc.

Well that's easy...

Marquinhos, Hayden, Pukki, Dowell, Byram, Hernandez, McGovern, Martin

That's 8 who as things stand won't be here next season, because they have contracts expiring in a few months.

Personally I hope Dowell and Hernandez stay, but that's not to say that we can afford to keep them, who knows what they are earning.

As for splashing tons of money about the place, what's stopping us signing players out of contract? That's how we signed Krul and Pukki after all, and Trybull.

Edited March 15, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[sonyc 5,520]

32 minutes ago, chicken said:

As it stands, Hernandez (sorely missed today I feel)

Yes, completely agree. I'm back from the game (about an hour ago) and it was a game ideal for Onel.

My brief thoughts (I'm no Ricardo so excuse the brevity of my report) .... I think I've witnessed the worst team in the Championship - Huddersfield - utterly hopeless and looked bereft of confidence and even skill. They allowed us the whole of the park to play in the first half especially. Unfortunately, that meant Hanley and Gibson got forward a lot. A strange sight. But they are not attacking mids who can pick out a through ball. But Huddersfield would have been terrified by Onel. He is a creative outlet and we have very little creativity in this team.

Having then witnessed such a terrible team as Huddersfield (surely they will go down?) then what does that make us? We just looked so ordinary. Not top 6 material. A struggle to even say we are mid-table on this viewing. Burnley and possibly any other current top 6 team would have gone for the jugular after we scored our first (Idah doing well). But we laboured. I couldn't see why we came out being so lazy in the second half. Then the usual mistake happened. Laughable if not so frustrating. 

Only when it was 1-1 did the speed of pass pick up. Why?! Why are we not putting teams like this to the sword? Confidence? Ability? Blimey, so many average or even below average performances. Sargent couldn't trap a ball or hold up any pass. Sorensen far too slow and rather absent for my liking in a midfielder. At least Sara tries. Ditto McLean.

What has young Gibbs done wrong? Is Wagner simply rotating to get a look at each player? Surely not when we are on the cusp off the play offs? Too important to be mixing up starting elevens. Injuries aside of course. Wagner seems one to experiment perhaps? Lots of questions that I cannot fathom. That so-called identity from those first games under him has now gone. We have become a ghost of a team. Like it's the last few episodes of some awful TV saga that's run too long, run its course. That's what this team looks like.

I actually want the season to end and see some renewal. Too many northern away 'no shows' this year.

Alex Neil will be up for causing an upset at the weekend. And who would really bet on us winning that at the moment.

No real MOTM - though Sara showed effort and took his goal well I guess. As for Stroud, I felt for 75 minutes he did what all good refs do - be invisible and let the game flow. Then, he just started drawing attention with some baffling and needless finicky decisions. So, in conclusion, he blotted his copybook. No surprise. 

At least the rain forecast was not as bad as expected. But we were worse than I expected. Away fans were loud and proud as ever but many were shaking their heads as they filed out sadly.

Edited March 15, 2023 by sonyc

[chicken 2,627]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Has our PPG actually got worse than under Smith?

Direct like for like? (wish I had bookmarked the last time I did this)

Wagner
1. (A) Preston = W, 4-0
2. (A) Coventry = W, 4-2
3. (H) Burnley = L, 3-0
4. (A) Bristol C = L, 1-0
5. (H) Hull = W, 3-1
6. (A) Wigan = D, 0-0
7. (H) Birmingham = W, 3-1
8. (H) Cardiff = W, 2-0
9. (A) Millwall) = W, 3-2
10. (H) Sunderland = L, 1-0
11. (A) Huddersfield = D, 1-1

Smith (comparison):
1. (H) Preston = L, 3-2
2. (H) Coventry =  W, 3-0
3. (A) Burnley = L, 1-0
4. (H) Bristol C = W, 3-2
5. (A) Hull = L, 2-1
6. (H) Wigan = D, 1-1
7. (A) Birmingham = W, 2-1 
8. (A) Cardiff = L, 1-0
9. (H) Millwall) = W, 2-0
10. (A) Sunderland = W, 1-0
11. (H) Huddersfield = W, 2-1

Head to head:
Games won: Wagner = 6, Smith = 6.
Games drawn: Wagner = 2, Smith = 1
Games lost: Wagner = 3, Smith = 4
Total Points: Wagner = 20pts from 11 games, Smith = 19pts from 11 games.
Goals Scored: Wagner = 20, Smith = 15
Goals Conceded: Wagner = 12, Smith = 11
Goal dif: Wagner = 8, Smith = 4
Clean sheets: Wagner = 3 (2 wins and a draw), Smith = 3 (3 wins).
Wins away from home: Wagner = 3, Smith = 2
Wins at home: Wagner = 3, Smith = 4

Wagner has overseen a period where we have failed to score in 4 out of 11 games. Smith's oversaw the direct comparison sides where they only failed to score in 2 out of those 11 games. Wagner has been in charge of 6 away games, Smith was away for 5 games. 

So it's a bit of a strange one. We've scored 5 more goals under Wagner which has gained us one additional point over Smiths tenure in comparative fixtures. Interestingly, though they scored fewer goals, they scored them across more games. This probably to do with those two games at Wagner's arrival where we scored 4 against the opposition for a +6 goal difference.

Again, I just think that underlines how inconsistent we have been this season. We can smash 4 past teams when the team is on point, when it's not, we surrender a 1-0 lead away to the bottom of the table team who look to be in financial trouble.

Of course, though these are corresponding fixtures, they are not like for like. In that we have seen players leave and one arrive. Other teams will have changed too and various other factors such as H Vs A.

Hopefully that helps answer a few thoughts (with the caveat and apologies that it is late and I may have made mistakes as a result).

Edited March 15, 2023 by chicken

[chicken 2,627]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, completely agree. I'm back from the game (about an hour ago) and it was a game ideal for Onel.

My brief thoughts (I'm no Ricardo so excuse the brevity of my report) .... I think I've witnessed the worst team in the Championship - Huddersfield - utterly hopeless and looked bereft of confidence and even skill. They allowed us the whole of the park to play in the first half especially. Unfortunately, that meant Hanley and Gibson got forward a lot. A strange sight. But they are not attacking mids who can pick out a through ball. But Huddersfield would have been terrified by Onel. He is a creative outlet and we have very little creativity in this team.

Having then witnessed such a terrible team as Huddersfield (surely they will go down?) then what does that make us? We just looked so ordinary. Not top 6 material. A struggle to even say we are mid-table on this viewing. Burnley and possibly any other current top 6 team would have gone for the jugular after we scored our first (Idah doing well). But we laboured. I couldn't see why we came out being so lazy in the second half. Then the usual mistake happened. Laughable if not so frustrating. 

Only when it was 1-1 did the speed of pass pick up. Why?! Why are we not putting teams like this to the sword? Confidence? Ability? Blimey, so many average or even below average performances. Sargent couldn't trap a ball or hold up any pass. Sorensen far too slow and rather absent for my liking in a midfielder. At least Sara tries. Ditto McLean.

What has young Gibbs done wrong? Is Wagner simply rotating to get a look at each player? Surely not when we are on the cusp off the play offs? Too important to be mixing up starting elevens. Injuries aside of course. Wagner seems one to experiment perhaps? Lots of questions that I cannot fathom. That so-called identity from those first games under him has now gone. We have become a ghost of a team. Like it's the last few episodes of some awful TV saga that's run too long, run its course. That's what this team looks like.

I actually want the season to end and see some renewal. Too many northern away 'no shows' this year.

Alex Neil will be up for causing an upset at the weekend. And who would really bet on us winning that at the moment.

No real MOTM - though Sara showed effort and took his goal well I guess. As for Stroud, I felt for 75 minutes he did what all good refs do - be invisible and let the game flow. Then, he just started drawing attention with some baffling and needless finicky decisions. So, in conclusion, he blotted his copybook. No surprise. 

At least the rain forecast was not as bad as expected. But we were worse than I expected. Away fans were loud and proud as ever but many were shaking their heads as they filed out sadly.

I think Wagner is finding that getting a consistent tune out of this side is far from easy. He's played the same team for several games and got different noises on each occaision. He changes it and we get back some of what we lost, sticks with the players he brought on and changed things, (a show of faith perhaps?), and they can't repeat it.

I do think some teams, not Huddersfield mind, have found us out a little bit too. It's perhaps a similar issue to Farke in that when you play with such a distinct style, you're hoping that no teams are good enough to counter it. When you have 2-3 standout players like Skipp, Buendia and Pukki, they make it hard for any team to counter. Add to that a tip-top form Cantwell, a fading but still impactful Vrancic and a solid Krul and it was going to take something to get results against us.

It does feel like a bit of a changing of the guard. We need to reassess the spine of the team and look again for a more organisationally minded DM/HM and then possibly at the striking situation and a CB.

Someone said the other day that 4 new signings could do it. I don't actually disagree - but the importance would be on knitting the team together better as much as it would be about trying to find those one or two players with the extra quality needed to lift us. I think that's perhaps something people underestimated about Tettey in the centre of the park, defensively he linked the midfield and the defence. If a full-back went forward he'd sit.

Of course, as well as we did in the championship, we failed with it in the premier league. I think you have to sacrifice a bit of style and flair for defensive solidity.

I think the stats I just did kind of paint a picture that it is the defensive side of the team, not just the defence itself, that has cost us. One goal in it between Smith and Wagner isn't really enough to say one is better than the other in that department. Smith is seen as the more defensive of the two, at which point you would think that the same defence would concede noticeably more in a more open attacking style. Or noticeably less if we were seeing more of the ball and taking pressure off our back 4-5.

It would appear that that aspect of our team is the biggest issue right now. Gibson looked good for it when he first signed. We have to make sure it's a capable player in there that can give us more than a season or two. Ideally around 25 so if we need/have to, he still has potential future value. I know people rave about Omabamidele but I'm not sure he's quite there yet, and still needs a more experienced head next to him.

[chicken 2,627]

45 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Well that's easy...

Marquinhos, Hayden, Pukki, Dowell, Byram, Hernandez, McGovern, Martin

That's 8 who as things stand won't be here next season, because they have contracts expiring in a few months.

Personally I hope Dowell and Hernandez stay, but that's not to say that we can afford to keep them, who knows what they are earning.

As for splashing tons of money about the place, what's stopping us signing players out of contract? That's how we signed Krul and Pukki after all, and Trybull.

Sometimes I wish that leopards could change their spots.

You are getting pedantic now. We know Marqy boi is going back along with Hayden because they don't belong to us. Equally, neither look like they are likely to be making massive impacts upon our season, well, not Hayden in any case.

The comment I was making was in response to people naming a number of first team players who have played regularly this season. Hanley, Gibson, Pukki, Idah etc. Martin isn't here, McGovern is 3rd choice, Byram is just constantly injured. No shocks about any of those going.

And yes, we could go into the market for the cheap and free players. That has mainly served us once. And now we are much more limited in that regard. We wouldn't have been able to sign Trybull for starters, I believe Southwell(pinkun) suggested we wouldn't have got Pukki either.

So that means we are predominantly looking at freebies in the top tier of European leagues that meet the criteria, freebies in the EFL and Premier League, and freebies outside of the EU that would qualify through the new points system - so again, players in a high level recognised to give points or those who have played for a high enough ranked international side.

The obvious issue with this is that they also need to not be good enough for teams in a better financial position to offer them terms we can't compete with... 

On top of that you have a number of players who will be entering the final year of their contract with decisions needed there too. Aarons, Gibson and others listed on @Feedthewolf's thread.

Let's hope Attanasio can improve the offer we can give to players in terms of contracts and start there. Then it's about identifying players that can improve us where we need to be improved and getting them over the line.

Of the list of players you list, how many need to be genuinely replaced?

McGovern - not really, 3rd choice could easily be a youngster, or just bring in another veteran keeper who'd be good for the 2-3 games they may actually be needed for - after all, with keepers, if enough are injured the league can grant emergency loans etc.

Byram - Sorensen can play CB/RB, Mumba can play RB. I think if it was just Byram we'd probably have to say we haven't really had him as a reliable option since he signed - which is sad because he has been quality when he's played and no doubt would strengthen our starting line up if he was in it, starting, for more than 1/4 of the season if you're lucky. I actually think this will be more of an issue if Aarons goes but that's another matter.

Martin - as good as gone already. Has barely been involved for two seasons and isn't ripping up trees where he is. Tzolis is being used more, Rowe will be back fit and Springett developing and Mumba back from his loan - all contracted and capable. Plus Placheta is still on the books along with Rashica. He's got to be about 5th/6th choice and just not close to good enough now. 

Hayden - really hasn't had the influence he would have liked, and lets face it, he has to prove he is over his injuries now. I very much doubt we will be looking to keep him for £10m or whatever the rumours were at the start of the season. Not with questions over his fitness. Plus loan, so not part of an "overhaul" but one we knew wouldn't be here if we didn't go up or he didn't perform for us.

Marquinhos - young and same issues as other players. Good in fits and starts but not consistently. Hasn't really showed us any reason as to why he's going to be playing regularly for Arsenal yet.

I wasn't talking about cutting some chafe from the squad, though arguably there is still some not mentioned by you. Placheta is an obvious one. Rashica - not sure he'll come back now, never say never but you would have to put him down as a strong candidate to be sold on, especially if we can get any offers close to the fee we paid for him. Some might argue that there are question marks around Tzolis still as well.

As you say, Hernandez at this point simply has to be given a new contract unless they have someone lined up who is guaranteed to give us the same sort of options going forward out wide. In fact, width is still an area that we need to sort our numbers wise, we have too many to keep in the squad. Some could be loaned out, others might be an option to sell. Rowe, Springett, Mumba, Tzolis, Rashica and Hernandez if he's kept. Again, the issue is to we see any of them stepping up to be that spark we need on a regular basis? If we bring any others in, players have to go. Loans for Rowe and Springett would be the likely ones I think, Mumber is 21 so could go on loan again - but I suspect he'll be used as cover at RB and so an option for the wing too.

Dowell I am 50/50 over. He blows hot and cold, and really needs to be consistent. Another one who looked good when Wagner first came in then fizzled out a bit before his injury. Could we bring in better? Are we better off with the devil we know? One less player to have to bed in and get playing Wagner's way? I won't be upset if he goes or jumping up and down with excitement if he stays. I think Hernandez is more important.

If it helps I'll rephrase. I can't see us selling/chucking out current first team players wholesale to see a massive overhaul of the squad. I think you might see some of them leave - not the ones people want to necessarily, and others may become 2nd or 3rd choice. No shocks there either, Hernandez hadn't been 1st choice for two seasons before this one. Gibson has spent large parts of this and last season as 3rd choice CB (of three at times).
 

[TheBaldOne66 687]

5 hours ago, unique said:

That was never a red card.
 

Barely a yellow.

But if it was by a Huddersfield player on one of ours everybody would be screaming for a red! 
 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

7 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Summed up with two minutes to go, we have a goal kick. Gunn tells them to get upfield. Hanley overrules. AO gets the ball, passes to Hanley who runs ten yards then boots it upfield.

No momentum in our play. No pace in the front six. Lack of basic ball control. Midfield too deliberate. Would rather give a five yard backward pass than take a chance on going past someone. Defence as bad as ever.

Proof that not all Brazilians can play football properly. Apart from his goal, Sara, who was supposed to be an attacking midfielder, drops back for an easy ball time after time. Marquinhos clueless about what he is supposed to be doing.

I am so fcukin frustrated right now. What is it that 30 pinkun posters can see that Webber and Wagner cannot?

They can probably  see it too. Just unable or players not up to carrying it out. We had 45 mins of a head start against the bottom team in the league and still nearly lost. 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

5 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

But if it was by a Huddersfield player on one of ours everybody would be screaming for a red! 

If I was at the game I'd probably have been screaming for a red, that's just the life of a football fan, isn't it? I reserved judgement on the Marquinhos red until after I'd see the replay, especially as the Huddersfield player had to change his shirt, which obviously means that his arm drew blood.

Having seen the replay, though, it's objectively never a red card.

[shefcanary 2,409]

1 hour ago, Feedthewolf said:

Having seen the replay, though, it's objectively never a red card.

Will we appeal it?

Actually given Marquinhos contribution yesterday, better not. Just throw one of our own youngsters into the game, start the rebuild with our own.

[shefcanary 2,409]

16 hours ago, American_Canary said:

You drunk while taking this friend? Blurry as **** on my end 🙂

It was an "arty" shot - trying to convey a sense of "in motion". Failed obviously ...

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Will we appeal it?

Actually given Marquinhos contribution yesterday, better not. Just throw one of our own youngsters into the game, start the rebuild with our own.

Yeah, no idea why Tzolis isn't getting in ahead of him. He came on and scored that cracking goal and then we've seen **** all of him.