Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[essex canary 496]

8 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Perhaps he isn't, but when a club pays 10m for a 19-year-old, it makes sure it does everything to integrate him. Of course, I don't know if Tzolis has issue problems, or is another Todd Cantwell, but if he is not, we have failed him. He was touted as one of the most promising youngsters in the whole of Europe, and then his manager ignores him completely and plays dross like Placheta and Sargent ahead of him. Do you expect him to be happy?

Anyway, he's gone, and we have Smith to thank for that. Next to come, Pukki. We are letting this mediocre manager destroy everything we have built up over the last five years.

Doesn't sound logical. Smith didn't sign Placheta or Sargent anymore than he signed Tsolis.

Our 201819 success was based on foreign players but somewhat older and more mature ones. Perhaps that is the point that Smith recognises? 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

3 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Doesn't sound logical. Smith didn't sign Placheta or Sargent anymore than he signed Tsolis.

Our 201819 success was based on foreign players but somewhat older and more mature ones. Perhaps that is the point that Smith recognises? 

No, he didn't sign them. But he decided that Sargent and Placheta deserve more of an opportunity than Tzolis. I accept that there may be good reasons for this which we do not know about - perhaps Tzolis has been difficult in training, or lazy, or just not gelled with the group - but this discarding of Tzolis is a judgement on Smith's part, and if Tzolis turns out to be a very, very good player, it's a bad judgement. OK, I accept it's a big 'if', but based on what many European people in the know said about Tzolis before he came here, I think it's an acceptable 'if'.

As for Smith not signing Placheta or Sargent or Tzolis, that is how a DoF system works. The coach has input into recruitment, but essentially has to work with what he is given.

[king canary 7,606]

40 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Anyway, he's gone, and we have Smith to thank for that.

Literally no words in this sentence are true. He hasn't gone. We have no idea if that is Smith's decision. 

This forum goes insane in the transfer window I swear...

[Danke bitte 965]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Literally no words in this sentence are true. He hasn't gone. We have no idea if that is Smith's decision. 

This forum goes insane in the transfer window I swear...

You have logged on when we lose right?? 😁

[Google Bot 3,277]

9 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

But he decided that Sargent and Placheta deserve more of an opportunity than Tzolis

And Rowe (186 mins), and Springett (141 mins) since start of the year.  Tzolis played a massive 46 mins, it's pathetic when we're playing absolute dog ****e like Gilmour.

We were relegated with 4-5 games left and Tzolis didn't see a single minute - it's just ridiculous, is it any wonder if the player has had enough?!  All was fine till Farke pissed his pants publicly after the Liverpool "incident".

[essex canary 496]

10 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

No, he didn't sign them. But he decided that Sargent and Placheta deserve more of an opportunity than Tzolis. I accept that there may be good reasons for this which we do not know about - perhaps Tzolis has been difficult in training, or lazy, or just not gelled with the group - but this discarding of Tzolis is a judgement on Smith's part, and if Tzolis turns out to be a very, very good player, it's a bad judgement. OK, I accept it's a big 'if', but based on what many European people in the know said about Tzolis before he came here, I think it's an acceptable 'if'.

As for Smith not signing Placheta or Sargent or Tzolis, that is how a DoF system works. The coach has input into recruitment, but essentially has to work with what he is given.

Tzolis may well be a good prospect. These guys want to play in the top divisions in Europe and Farke didn't pick him either but it is important they hit the ground running when signing for a Club such as us, difficult though that challenge is. When compared to Danish international Skov Olsen who Bruges signed earlier this year for £7 million, Tzolis still seems relatively expensive.

[Mason 47 1,379]

9 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

All was fine till Farke pissed his pants publicly after the Liverpool "incident".

In fairness, Farke didnt march out to the press looking for blood. He was asked 'Tzolis took the ball off of Idah, was he meant to do that?' and said no he wasn't, then was asked 'will there be punishments?' to which he confirmed yes, but he's already apologised and the matter is done with. Seemed reasonable to me

[Google Bot 3,277]

3 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

In fairness, Farke didnt march out to the press looking for blood. He was asked 'Tzolis took the ball off of Idah, was he meant to do that?' and said no he wasn't

Also called him incredibly naïve, said that he'll never do it again after he's been disciplined, and that it "Cost us" the game. 

So nowhere near as light as you're making out.  He could've just laughed it off and dealt with it internally, you don't nurture a young player by blaming them for losing a match and telling the world how naïve they are.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

32 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

In fairness, Farke didnt march out to the press looking for blood. He was asked 'Tzolis took the ball off of Idah, was he meant to do that?' and said no he wasn't, then was asked 'will there be punishments?' to which he confirmed yes, but he's already apologised and the matter is done with. Seemed reasonable to me

See, there’s always one that wants to let facts get in the way of a rant - the simple fact is that some can’t see that things are blown out of proportion by media stories.  DF will have been asked questions, he answered them, it was done with. 
Tzolis was given plenty of opportunities, but never looked great and didn’t even shine when played in the u23’s…just what was Smith meant to do with him, play him in PL games ahead of guys like Rowe and Springett who were playing better? What sort of message would that send out?  
It looks like it hasn’t worked out - he’s young and perhaps it was too early for him to move abroad/bein the PL.  Imo Webber takes a fair bit for that, they should do due diligence on any signing to check as far as they can that the player’s character is up to it.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Literally no words in this sentence are true. He hasn't gone. We have no idea if that is Smith's decision. 

This forum goes insane in the transfer window I swear...

It does. The vaguest of rumours from twitter accounts well known to be utter garbage and some people are already ripping off their shirts ready to go bare chested, knuckles out to the gates of Colney... 

It's almost as bad as people saying that Webber makes all of the signings without the head coach involved at all. As if every now and then during a transfer window, a car turns up and a new coach gets out, or a couple of players get out, and Smith is just like "Oh, hi geeza, where do you play mate? Wing? Oh, right, full back? No. Ok, Erm, Onel, sorry mate, got a new lad."

Edited June 24, 2022 by chicken

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Literally no words in this sentence are true. He hasn't gone. We have no idea if that is Smith's decision. 

This forum goes even more insane in the transfer window I swear...

😎

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Breaking news: non professional footballing fans of a club that have witnessed a couple of hours of a player get outraged that he is possibly being loaned out or sold. Vs highly experienced manager with premier league winning coach in tow assess new player to English football over several months and determine he will either not fit with whatever system they want to use or is simply not good enough. 

They won’t play him, so why let his value decrease more and chuck away money? If they’ve assessed him and he is not up to it then what’s the point in keeping him? If he wants to go then what’s the point in keeping him? 

Honestly, the Smith haters and/or Webber haters really out in force for what could well be a good decision after an initially not good one. It’s decisive and beneficial tj the club and one thing no one on here seems to point out is that NONE of us on this forum know as much about football as Smith, Shakespeare and even Webber (except Parma). To say they’re clueless is just weird but if that’s your view then you have to also conclude that you are more clueless, otherwise you’d have crafted a little career for yourself in football by now. And if you are therefore more clueless than the clueless you really have to admit they your view of player ins and outs is totally worthless. 

How about we all just see what happens and make a judgement once we are a few games in shall we? Tzolis is clearly not good enough so let’s get rid and cut our losses 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

What could have been if he did not take that penalty..

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

13 hours ago, lake district canary said:

You win some you lose some, but it does add to the idea that it is daft to build players up to much when they arrive at a football club. The hype led to an unrealistic expectation of him.  I feel that the culture shock was too great for the young lad to come in to a new country, Norwich in particular and the Premier League and he lost his way.  The Liverpool penalty decision was a key moment - "he'll never do that again in his career" Farke said, indicating the level of telling off he must have given Tzolis after that. That penalty goes in and his season takes off - but it didn't. 

A Van Wolfswinkel/Snodgrass moment.

As much as I love Farke, that may go down as one of his worst ever man-management moments

[Mengo 822]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

What could have been if he did not take that penalty..

Now that could have been the title of a new thread c.c . 

If he had scored. His value could be 20M now 🤣

 

[hertfordyellow 460]

4 hours ago, WD40 said:

Disingenuous in the extreme. Most of the assets Webber flogged were here prior to him being at the club. Buendia was his signing, absolutely, but the gains there must be wiped out by messrs Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis. 

He hired the coach that suited youth development, negotiated longer contracts, built the colney environment where these players thrived, negotiated top fees but apart from that he had no involvement.

I don’t really get your point at all. Hoolahan and Holt were signed by other managers but we give Lambert credit for bringing the absolute best out of them. Do we credit Gunn with that instead?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

Someone made the point early on when we signed him that Greek players historically dont adapt well to England and listed a whole host of players. Giannoulis has hardly made himself first name on the teamsheet. Perhaps its a cultural thing

[CDMullins 436]

4 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Someone made the point early on when we signed him that Greek players historically dont adapt well to England and listed a whole host of players. Giannoulis has hardly made himself first name on the teamsheet. Perhaps its a cultural thing

He had,

But Webber got an hard on when he saw Williams was available,

There's no way Williams should have been infront of Dimi.

[hertfordyellow 460]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

Sure, if your only goal is making the balance sheets look nice.

I think money is by far the biggest influence on football success. While talking about balance sheets might leave fans cold, the business side is massively important. It’s not the only goal as you say but unfortunately it’s imperative to maximise revenue.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

Im sorry, but the people saying this transfer wasnt a disaster need their heads examining. We wasted a fifth of our total transfer budget on this player. A player that proved in no way ready to contribute. Either Webber knew he was buying potential only and sold Farke down the river by using significant funds on a player not ready to contribute, when for the same amount of money we could have plausibly plugged a major hole in the team such as a DM or a creative midfielder that might have made all the difference and not resulted in Farke being sacked, OR Webber and the recruitment team did such a bad job of assessing this lad they thought they were getting a player who could make a difference on the pitch yet didnt. At all. Either way its a horrible horrible misjudgement. Totally the wrong player to spend such a huge amount of money for a club like ours on. Tzolis has gone backwards no doubt, so disastrous all round.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

4 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

I think money is by far the biggest influence on football success. While talking about balance sheets might leave fans cold, the business side is massively important. It’s not the only goal as you say but unfortunately it’s imperative to maximise revenue.

What's the financial hit of relegation? Im sorry but £10m could have been far better spent. 

We spent £30m on Tzolis Sargent and Rashica and they were all turds

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

A Van Wolfswinkel/Snodgrass moment.

As much as I love Farke, that may go down as one of his worst ever man-management moments

As much as it was Snodgrass to blame, it was Tzolis to blame. Players were at fault in both cases.

[Monty13 2,234]

1 hour ago, CDMullins said:

There's no way Williams should have been infront of Dimi.

Two experienced managers and their coaching staff thought otherwise.

[Monty13 2,234]

39 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

As much as it was Snodgrass to blame, it was Tzolis to blame. Players were at fault in both cases.

😂 you literally can’t even accept the idea Farke might have got something wrong can you?

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Someone made the point early on when we signed him that Greek players historically dont adapt well to England and listed a whole host of players. Giannoulis has hardly made himself first name on the teamsheet. Perhaps its a cultural thing

I don't agree. Over the years there have been some brilliant Greek players. I think it's likely to be more to do with the gulf in standard and the age old adage that it can take players coming into the English game a season to adapt. We have seen that plenty of times with our own haven't we? Not Greek players, just in general.

Dabizas was decent for Newcastle back in the day.

You have Tsimikas at Liverpool who is doing fairly well, though has a tough proposition dislodging arguably the best fullback in terms of form at least in the country right now.

Giannakopoulos made over 130 appearances for Bolton between 2003 and 2008.
Samaras made 54 appearances for Man City between 2006-08, and also went on to play over 150 times for Celtic.
Karagkounis was at the end of his career when he played for Fulham and made 39 appearances in two season but certainly had quality, especially to adapt at the tail end of a career when it can be more difficult.

I could go on but I'll just list some - Zagorakis (Leicester 1998-2000), Holebas (somewhat of a cheeky one, raised in Germany, played German football before playing for Watford 2015-20, Greek international), Kyrgiakos.

And then again, it is all about perspective. Greece has a smaller population than London. I think it's something people tend to forget, perhaps because it occupies a fair bit of space on a map. There's something like 10.6m people in Greece. 

[Google Bot 3,277]

I really rate Dimi, it's only the fact that Williams came in that kept him out the team.

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

What's the financial hit of relegation? Im sorry but £10m could have been far better spent. 

We spent £30m on Tzolis Sargent and Rashica and they were all turds

I think that's harsh. I think we invested too much money in players who we knew could take time to adapt. We are not a club that has a squad that can accommodate giving players time to adapt in the premier league.

I suspect we may well see more from Sargent and Rashica this season if they are to stay and continue their career with us.

Sargent had a very difficult first season to navigate with injury, covid in the camp, birth of his daughter and shift of country, culture and approach to football. And he was 21 when the season started. At times, he made a huge difference being on the pitch for us. I personally wouldn't write him off just yet.

I don't think Rashica is poor either. Again, I think he struggled to get to grips with what was expected of him here initially. He certainly had some decent games and in flashes, showed us what he could be capable of.

The real issue is that we signed those three plus Lees-Melou, Normann as well as loans of Williams and Gilmour. How many were ready to go as first team regulars? Lees-Melou started to find consistency towards the end of the season and looked to have something about him, premier league level the jury is probably still out a bit. Normann really did flatter to deceive, talked the talk, even had the swank but in the end, barely had the walk and failed to really deliver what he promised. Again, he had flashes at the start of the season, but it never really materialised into much.

Williams was very enthusiastic and a good hard worker that got up and down a lot. Got caught out at times, but then, that's what you get with youngsters that need more game time.

Gilmour, well, I think it's fair to say he would have played less if the terms of the deal had been different...

In hindsight, I do think that we could have perhaps been better served trying to prize a championship asset away from someone, at least they would have been more or less ready to go.

Some folks will also mention Gunn for £5m, but in all honesty, we needed a 2nd choice, and he comes as a probable 1st choice. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

5 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

What's the financial hit of relegation? Im sorry but £10m could have been far better spent. 

We spent £30m on Tzolis Sargent and Rashica and they were all turds

You are arguing against a point that hasn’t been made. 

[WD40 720]

6 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

He hired the coach that suited youth development, negotiated longer contracts, built the colney environment where these players thrived, negotiated top fees but apart from that he had no involvement.

I don’t really get your point at all. Hoolahan and Holt were signed by other managers but we give Lambert credit for bringing the absolute best out of them. Do we credit Gunn with that instead?

In terms of recruitment, yes we do

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

😂 you literally can’t even accept the idea Farke might have got something wrong can you?

To be fair, if we are saying that Tzolis was so lacking in resilience that one missed pen and a slap on the wrists was enough to cause him to play so poorly that even a manager willing to give Todd Cantwell a second chance wouldn’t play him, then he probably isn’t for us