Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[lake district canary 4,531]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

😂 you literally can’t even accept the idea Farke might have got something wrong can you?

Not in this case. Tzolis deserved a rocket for stepping in where he shouldn't have.

[Monty13 2,229]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Not in this case. Tzolis deserved a rocket for stepping in where he shouldn't have.

Nobody said he didn’t deserve it. The poster was inferring that the fact that Tzolis basically disappeared and never recovered means it was potentially poorly handled by Farke.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

Nobody said he didn’t deserve it. The poster was inferring that the fact that Tzolis basically disappeared and never recovered means it was potentially poorly handled by Farke.

I’d argue the reaction being to stop playing well was very disproportionate to the telling off. Especially for a grown albeit young man. Suggests he had been pandered to much of his life if this is the reaction he has the minute someone points out what he has done was stupid 

[Monty13 2,229]

42 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

To be fair, if we are saying that Tzolis was so lacking in resilience that one missed pen and a slap on the wrists was enough to cause him to play so poorly that even a manager willing to give Todd Cantwell a second chance wouldn’t play him, then he probably isn’t for us 

Possibly, maybe even probably. But the fact that a lad we just signed for a massive fee, who we waxed lyrical about being Europes best in his position and age while handing out the longest contact on the squad got that slap, became forgotten almost instantly and will likely never play for us again does kind of smell at least partly of mismanagement.

[Yella Army 57]

10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

As much as it was Snodgrass to blame, it was Tzolis to blame. Players were at fault in both cases.

I was more annoyed that whoever the captain was in the Liverpool fixture didn't control the situation for the penalty.. where was he?! You step in and go 'no, Adam is the pen taker so back off and get ready on the edge of the box incase it rebounds'. Likewise, Adam Idah should have been more forceful in taking the pen.

[hogesar 9,618]

15 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Also called him incredibly naïve, said that he'll never do it again after he's been disciplined, and that it "Cost us" the game. 

So nowhere near as light as you're making out.  He could've just laughed it off and dealt with it internally, you don't nurture a young player by blaming them for losing a match and telling the world how naïve they are.

Farke had weaknesses but the way he progressed and nurtured young players was second to none. I remember people accused him of similar at the start of our championship season leaving out Todd and emi, both went on to have fantastic seasons.

[Monty13 2,229]

15 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I’d argue the reaction being to stop playing well was very disproportionate to the telling off. Especially for a grown albeit young man. Suggests he had been pandered to much of his life if this is the reaction he has the minute someone points out what he has done was stupid 

You don’t know what the “telling off” entailed? Neither do any of us.

Yes there’s a chance Tzolis is such a prima Donna that one knock to his ego was enough that he never wanted to play for us again.

There’s also a chance that it was handled so badly from a man management point of view that he felt that way.

Posters love to make out that players are professionals and the implication is that they are therefore somehow emotionless robots. We all work with professional people and they all respond differently to man management depending on their personality, because they are people.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out Farke has quite a high body count of players frozen out/falling out with him during his tenure. It’s just up until recently it didn’t matter as we had a good enough team without them.

I find it interesting the only player I can think of in Farkes tenure getting publicly sidelined and brought back in was Buendia, a star we literally couldn’t afford to lose.

[Chichcan 147]

Feyenoord now interested as well apparently 

I'd like to think it might start a bidding war but it seems neither Bruges or Feyenoord can actually afford to buy him hence the loans

Edited June 25, 2022 by Chichcan

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

20 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

You don’t know what the “telling off” entailed? Neither do any of us.

Yes there’s a chance Tzolis is such a prima Donna that one knock to his ego was enough that he never wanted to play for us again.

There’s also a chance that it was handled so badly from a man management point of view that he felt that way.

Posters love to make out that players are professionals and the implication is that they are therefore somehow emotionless robots. We all work with professional people and they all respond differently to man management depending on their personality, because they are people.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out Farke has quite a high body count of players frozen out/falling out with him during his tenure. It’s just up until recently it didn’t matter as we had a good enough team without them.

I find it interesting the only player I can think of in Farkes tenure getting publicly sidelined and brought back in was Buendia, a star we literally couldn’t afford to lose.

He literally sidelined and brought back in Cantwell, who then had to be sidelined again. Tzolis may have been completely humble and contrite, simple fact that we do know for sure, he couldn’t get into the first team, played mediocre in the U23s and a new manager also didn’t put him in the first team. The conclusion is that he isn’t playing well enough. 

Farke was not the manager for us in the EPL, granted, but the hype around Tzolis was just that, hype and potential. He hasn’t realised it so yes we spent big ish for us and it didn’t pan out. I’m not saying he is an emotionless robot, I am saying there are a few options. He lacks resilience, he is a prima donna, he doesn’t fit a system we will play or he isn’t up to standard. No amount of man management (from as many have stated a widely regarded expert at this in DF) changes this and frankly if a player needs such input to get a tune out of him then he is drawing resources from the rest of the squads development alongside trickling away the initial investment. 

The club are not knee jerk flogging a potentially valuable asset looking to recoup millions (which is our model), so clearly the balance of probabilities from those that run the club suggests he is not the man for us. We don’t have the luxury of taking these players through years before we see what they can do, so the decision is the best one. 

[Monty13 2,229]

8 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I’m not saying he is an emotionless robot, I am saying there are a few options. 1. He lacks resilience, 2. he is a prima donna, 3. he doesn’t fit a system we will play or 4. he isn’t up to standard. No amount of man management (from as many have stated a widely regarded expert at this in DF) changes this and frankly if a player needs such input to get a tune out of him then he is drawing resources from the rest of the squads development alongside trickling away the initial investment. 

Sorry I just disagree with your assessment and that’s my only point.

You’ve given four options 1 and 2 are the players fault, 3 and 4 are recruitment teams.

I’m merely suggesting the possibility that it’s option 5, Farke managed him poorly.

Or it’s a combination.

I just find it interesting posters dismiss option 5 as a possibility like it’s an irrefutable truth that Farke was the perfect man manager.

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

Odd that the pinkun are reporting Moenchengladbach are interested in him.  That’d be strange if, as we are led to believe, DF ‘ruined’ the lad with his post Liverpool comments…

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

23 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

He literally sidelined and brought back in Cantwell, who then had to be sidelined again. Tzolis may have been completely humble and contrite, simple fact that we do know for sure, he couldn’t get into the first team, played mediocre in the U23s and a new manager also didn’t put him in the first team. The conclusion is that he isn’t playing well enough. 

Farke was not the manager for us in the EPL, granted, but the hype around Tzolis was just that, hype and potential. He hasn’t realised it so yes we spent big ish for us and it didn’t pan out. I’m not saying he is an emotionless robot, I am saying there are a few options. He lacks resilience, he is a prima donna, he doesn’t fit a system we will play or he isn’t up to standard. No amount of man management (from as many have stated a widely regarded expert at this in DF) changes this and frankly if a player needs such input to get a tune out of him then he is drawing resources from the rest of the squads development alongside trickling away the initial investment. 

The club are not knee jerk flogging a potentially valuable asset looking to recoup millions (which is our model), so clearly the balance of probabilities from those that run the club suggests he is not the man for us. We don’t have the luxury of taking these players through years before we see what they can do, so the decision is the best one. 

I don't disagree with that. I think the feeling some posters, myself included, have is that Tzolis might come good in a season in the Championship. By all accounts he played well against a Championship-level Bournemouth side. And if we let him go now we will regret it in a year's time.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I don't disagree with that. I think the feeling some posters, myself included, have is that Tzolis might come good in a season in the Championship. By all accounts he played well against a Championship-level Bournemouth side. And if we let him go now we will regret it in a year's time.

Maybe, but if he doesn’t we could regret it just as much not offloading him now 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

22 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Sorry I just disagree with your assessment and that’s my only point.

You’ve given four options 1 and 2 are the players fault, 3 and 4 are recruitment teams.

I’m merely suggesting the possibility that it’s option 5, Farke managed him poorly.

Or it’s a combination.

I just find it interesting posters dismiss option 5 as a possibility like it’s an irrefutable truth that Farke was the perfect man manager.

Did Smith manage him poorly too? 

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

Tzolis came here a bit Billy Big ****, got carried away after his performance against Bornmuff and decided he take the ball off Adam and rightly got a bollicking.

He's not reacted well. Ideally we get on money back now and get a really good AM.

We can't have him and Cantwell as attitude baggage. Need some no nonsense scrappers.

 

[hertfordyellow 460]

6 hours ago, WD40 said:

In terms of recruitment, yes we do

The signing is only as good as his performances for the team. It takes a coach to make a signing great or not.

[Monty13 2,229]

35 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Did Smith manage him poorly too? 

Possibly? Possibly the damage was already done. Possibly that was nothing to do with it.

The point is dismissing the possibility of a management failure with no evidence is odd.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

Possibly? Possibly the damage was already done. Possibly that was nothing to do with it.

The point is dismissing the possibility of a management failure with no evidence is odd.

Fair point, could’ve been bad player management. I guess we can all agree we will never really know 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

Can anyone answer why we didnt try to blood Tzolis? Lad looked decent against Bournemouth, so at that point clearly had something about him.

Yes if he wasnt really earning his place it might have caused problems with other players, but the retort to that would be - we've spent a huge amount of money on this kid, he needs to adapt, he needs games, he is a huge investment.

I dont really understand what the plan was with Tzolis, most of the time we didnt even give him U23 game time, he just didnt play for almost a year - how on earth is that a plan to get the best out of him?

I mean, if he's not going to plan, why not simply try to blood him, given what we spent? I mean, we were bottom of the league, noone else was playing well in his position (and dont say Rashica because he wasnt - and he could have been moved to the rght wing) and it was clear from the complete lack of interest in revitalising the squad in January we had no real ambition of avoiding relegation, why not give him the games in his position? I mean how could the outcome have been worse? We'd still have played sh*t, still have finished bottom, and Tzolis individually couldnt possibly have gone backwards in his development more with games than he did with, whatever the club thinks it was doing with him? Smiith took this approach with Cantwell initially and Cantwell showed just how justified Farke was to drop him (as did Billy Gilmour).

I mean, if Tzolis really did have the potential to be one of the best wingers in the world, we have surely royally f*cked his development up.

I thought we must see him as one for the future, who would come through this season at championship level, but now it looks like we are writing him off. What a disaster of a signing for all parties.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Farke had weaknesses but the way he progressed and nurtured young players was second to none. I remember people accused him of similar at the start of our championship season leaving out Todd and emi, both went on to have fantastic seasons.

Not necessarily. I love Farke, but some players have gone backwards. Cantwell regressed, which he had some part in, Gilmour didnt blossom, Passlack, Edwards, Roberts - all talented players who he didnt get the best out of. A lot of this does seem to be the individual's attitude in a number of the cases, but nevertheless, these players were assets he failed to utilise.

Farke's approach seems to be - this is what is expected - its down to you to pick up the gauntlet. I agree with that in principle, but for some players its not going to work and suggests Farke at present lacks the flexiblity to adapt his approach to the individual.

Some players respond to a rollicking and a fire being lit under them, other players need the arm around them. Farke seems to only want to deal with one type of player, and if you're not that type of player you are bombed out. Oliveira, Watkins (maybe Franke), Drmic, Leitner. There is an unignorable list of players that Farke fell out with and froze out.

Yes he wants to mould a certain thing and that's fair enough, but a better man-manager might be able to blend different personalities rather than writing off certain personalities.

I love Farke, but I think there is more than enough evidence to argue that he might be a better manager he he could learn methods of utilising all of his playing squad.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Not necessarily. I love Farke, but some players have gone backwards. Cantwell regressed, which he had some part in, Gilmour didnt blossom, Passlack, Edwards, Roberts - all talented players who he didnt get the best out of. A lot of this does seem to be the individual's attitude in a number of the cases, but nevertheless, these players were assets he failed to utilise.

Farke's approach seems to be - this is what is expected - its down to you to pick up the gauntlet. I agree with that in principle, but for some players its not going to work and suggests Farke at present lacks the flexiblity to adapt his approach to the individual.

Some players respond to a rollicking and a fire being lit under them, other players need the arm around them. Farke seems to only want to deal with one type of player, and if you're not that type of player you are bombed out. Oliveira, Watkins (maybe Franke), Drmic, Leitner. There is an unignorable list of players that Farke fell out with and froze out.

Yes he wants to mould a certain thing and that's fair enough, but a better man-manager might be able to blend different personalities rather than writing off certain personalities.

I love Farke, but I think there is more than enough evidence to argue that he might be a better manager he he could learn methods of utilising all of his playing squad.

Cantwell improved hugely under Farke then he regressed. The rest…

Gilmour, Passlack, Edwards, Roberts, Oliveira, Watkins, Drmic, Leitner. 

Which one of these has gone onto better things than the level they were at with us? Gilmour the jury is out but which leagues are the others currently plying their trade in? I presume from your post they’re all lining up for top clubs in top leagues as the clubs they’re at have developed their supposed talent better than DF could? 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

16 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Cantwell improved hugely under Farke then he regressed. The rest…

Gilmour, Passlack, Edwards, Roberts, Oliveira, Watkins, Drmic, Leitner. 

Which one of these has gone onto better things than the level they were at with us? Gilmour the jury is out but which leagues are the others currently plying their trade in? I presume from your post they’re all lining up for top clubs in top leagues as the clubs they’re at have developed their supposed talent better than DF could? 

 

Cantwell initially blossomed under Farke, though you could argue his spell in Holland was a large part of that as well. There does seem to be a personal rift between Farke and Cantwell, as evidenced by Cantwell's 'We didnt see eye to eye' comment. Personally I think Farke's perceived devaluing of a major saleable asset was a large contributor to him losing his job - oh what a better spent £10m might have done for him.

The others I completely agree with. Edwards' loan to us I think was a last ditch attempt by Spurs to turn around a player failing to realise his potential. But it's not like Farke played him and he failed to produce, Farke never gave him a chance - presumably because he was trying to get him to respond the right way and earn it in training or with attitude, which was seemingly never forthcoming. If he'd have just given him games and he'd built up some experience and some confidence, might that have gone a different way? Same with Roberts - a player Farke would rather cut his own arm off than field, even when desperate for bodies. Im just saying that, as neither player contributed during their time, despite talent, because Farke refused to field them, that this might not have been the only, or the best approach.

Watkins, Leitner and Oliveira are a bit different as they are not young players in need of development. If they're bad apples, there's not much you can do.

But young people, in all walks of life can go off the rails if not properly looked after.

In my career, in my field, as a fledgling, I was lucky that I was very well looked after by senior pofessionals at a fragile and stressful time of my development. Others are not so lucky and a critical blow to their self-esteem and confidence can affect development for years to come and see people quit who otherwise could have been very good. Football is a bit different, but development is hugely important when you are young, and in some of these cases, I dont think a failure to hit the heights is always inevitable.

Edited June 25, 2022 by The Great Mass Debater

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Can anyone answer why we didnt try to blood Tzolis? Lad looked decent against Bournemouth, so at that point clearly had something about him.

Yes if he wasnt really earning his place it might have caused problems with other players, but the retort to that would be - we've spent a huge amount of money on this kid, he needs to adapt, he needs games, he is a huge investment.

I dont really understand what the plan was with Tzolis, most of the time we didnt even give him U23 game time, he just didnt play for almost a year - how on earth is that a plan to get the best out of him?

I mean, if he's not going to plan, why not simply try to blood him, given what we spent? I mean, we were bottom of the league, noone else was playing well in his position (and dont say Rashica because he wasnt - and he could have been moved to the rght wing) and it was clear from the complete lack of interest in revitalising the squad in January we had no real ambition of avoiding relegation, why not give him the games in his position? I mean how could the outcome have been worse? We'd still have played sh*t, still have finished bottom, and Tzolis individually couldnt possibly have gone backwards in his development more with games than he did with, whatever the club thinks it was doing with him? Smiith took this approach with Cantwell initially and Cantwell showed just how justified Farke was to drop him (as did Billy Gilmour).

I mean, if Tzolis really did have the potential to be one of the best wingers in the world, we have surely royally f*cked his development up.

I thought we must see him as one for the future, who would come through this season at championship level, but now it looks like we are writing him off. What a disaster of a signing for all parties.

A club who have qualified for next year's Champions League seems interested in him. A club who have qualified for next year's Europa League seems interested in him. Our manager, on the other hand, seems to think he isn't even good enough for the Championship, having made that decision without ever playing him for an entire PL game.

 

[Grando 260]

I suspect he was just too young and felt isolated and out of his depth. Initially he was staying at Barnham Broom hotel with his brother, so probably just never really settled.

[chicken 2,605]

2 hours ago, Grando said:

I suspect he was just too young and felt isolated and out of his depth. Initially he was staying at Barnham Broom hotel with his brother, so probably just never really settled.

They used to find host families for younger players, not sure if they still do that anymore. I know the money was poor and expectations of the family were quite high so no surprise if they don't. Can't help but feel a young lad staying with a local family would have helped.

From experience, when living in London, the best decision I made was to leave a very toxic flat-share and moved to lodging with a family. We shared meals (I often cooked when the single mum was working late at a housing trust and her teenage daughters were waiting for her return), we shared birthdays, Christmas, I felt part of a social group and I had support. I wasn't that far off his age, being in my early 20's, and I'll be forever grateful for that family for helping me to pick myself up off the floor and get back on with life. It gives you a value.

I do wonder if sometimes, English clubs are guilty of not fully grasping the culture of the players too. The Greek part of my family are/were very social, they can have very tight nit family groups. Not so dissimilar to Norfolk in many ways. There was nothing they wouldn't do for you even if you were hours drive away, or even in a different country. There are a fair few Greek folks who live in Norwich, or people descended from Greek migrants who still retain their Greek culture/heritage. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by chicken

[ged in the onion bag 854]

On 25/06/2022 at 10:28, SwearyCanary said:

I’d argue the reaction being to stop playing well was very disproportionate to the telling off. Especially for a grown albeit young man. Suggests he had been pandered to much of his life if this is the reaction he has the minute someone points out what he has done was stupid 

Reading this, it’s just made up nonsense you’ve written there that’s totally unfair on the lad, yet it reads further on in this thread that you actually fully believe the nonsense you wrote.   Remarkably someone even liked this comment!   Sorry to have a go he’s one of our players that hasn’t yet had a proper chance and you have no clue on what’s happening!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

5 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Reading this, it’s just made up nonsense you’ve written there that’s totally unfair on the lad, yet it reads further on in this thread that you actually fully believe the nonsense you wrote.   Remarkably someone even liked this comment!   Sorry to have a go he’s one of our players that hasn’t yet had a proper chance and you have no clue on what’s happening!

What’s made up? That he stopped playing well? Are you serious?! So he smashes it in training and doesn’t get picked then? Is that how it works. He clearly played worse than all those in competition for his place which puts him into the category of not playing well. I’m only conjecturing about what triggered his poor play, it’s perfectly possible that he was always poor but watching him vs Bournemouth I don’t think that’s totally the case, so he plays worse following a game where he got a telling off is not a big jump to assume that one led to the other. 
Let me correct myself, he either 

was always bad, had a good flakey game vs Bournemouth OR 

was decent but played worse which may or may not be because he got told off OR 

Was decent but played worse because he just didn’t want to play well for us 

Was decent but played worse because he misses home 

what is irrefutable is that he played worse, as I said before he wouldn’t be benched if he was the best we had in that position. That has to be true unless you can come up with a reason otherwise? If the first reason is not true then any one of the other three shows he either lacks the mentality, willingness or resilience to succeed for us. Of course I don’t know, but if by nonsense you mean reasoned hypothesis then that’s ok. 

Ate we only allowed to theorise and discuss completely irrefutable facts on this forum then? Probably makes for a bit of a boring discourse. It’s an open forum, to discuss the club and players is perfectly reasonable.

I’ll counter by saying that your suggestion he ‘hasn’t had a chance’ is utter nonsense that you clearly believe yourself. Has he been locked in a cupboard during the countless hours, days, weeks, months of training this last year? No, so yes he has had a chance, one the same as all the other new arrivals had. You don’t pick a player on match day that’s shown you he is not the best in training do you? Do I know this - course not, is it likely, yes. 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

10 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

1) what is irrefutable is that he played worse, as I said before he wouldn’t be benched if he was the best we had in that position.  

2) Are we only allowed to theorise and discuss completely irrefutable facts on this forum then?  

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by PurpleCanary

[canarybubbles 1,915]

6 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

What’s made up? That he stopped playing well? Are you serious?! So he smashes it in training and doesn’t get picked then? Is that how it works. He clearly played worse than all those in competition for his place which puts him into the category of not playing well. I’m only conjecturing about what triggered his poor play, it’s perfectly possible that he was always poor but watching him vs Bournemouth I don’t think that’s totally the case, so he plays worse following a game where he got a telling off is not a big jump to assume that one led to the other. 
Let me correct myself, he either 

was always bad, had a good flakey game vs Bournemouth OR 

was decent but played worse which may or may not be because he got told off OR 

Was decent but played worse because he just didn’t want to play well for us 

Was decent but played worse because he misses home 

what is irrefutable is that he played worse, as I said before he wouldn’t be benched if he was the best we had in that position. That has to be true unless you can come up with a reason otherwise? If the first reason is not true then any one of the other three shows he either lacks the mentality, willingness or resilience to succeed for us. Of course I don’t know, but if by nonsense you mean reasoned hypothesis then that’s ok. 

Ate we only allowed to theorise and discuss completely irrefutable facts on this forum then? Probably makes for a bit of a boring discourse. It’s an open forum, to discuss the club and players is perfectly reasonable.

I’ll counter by saying that your suggestion he ‘hasn’t had a chance’ is utter nonsense that you clearly believe yourself. Has he been locked in a cupboard during the countless hours, days, weeks, months of training this last year? No, so yes he has had a chance, one the same as all the other new arrivals had. You don’t pick a player on match day that’s shown you he is not the best in training do you? Do I know this - course not, is it likely, yes. 

He didn't play worse under Smith, because he didn't play. I haven't fact-checked it, but someone on here said he played 46 minutes in 2022.

He may have trained worse. As fans we can never know that. If you trust Smith as a manager, you believe that, because you trust Smith's judgement. Not all of us are so willing to do that.

Whatever, Tzolis has no future at Norwich. Time will be the judge of whether that is a good decision or not.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

I haven't given up on the boy yet, and hope he stays to prove Webber, the scouts and the statisticians belatedly right in their judgement and all the habitual critics wrong.

Otherwise, and at £9m as a reported fee, it would rightly be considered a mistake of RVW proportions.

Clearly he's had a difficult year for reasons that can only be surmised, but there must be true talent there, imo. 

The only reason I would want him gone is if we were to mostly recoup our outlay and then spend that entire amount on some striker or midfielder good enough to propel us to success this coming season. Some hopes of that, though, as we seem to have been hit with a sudden and total inability/reluctance to spend under any circumstances. 

In Tzolis and Cantwell we have two youngsters currently in the playing squad who, for different reasons, have something to prove next season. The Championship might well be that proving ground.

If Cantwell returns to his best and Tzolis finally lives up to his reputation, then our chances of that promotion will, imo, be greatly enhanced. What a team that would be?

I would be willing to take that risk. There's always the Winter window.