Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[Google Bot 3,275]

31 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

For me IF he hasn't shown enough in training then why should he be selected for a match day squad ahead of others who have? That's not mismanagement if so. 

Because there exists such a thing as moral and making a player feeling a valued member of the squad - being an integral part of man management.

Smith played an unfit, barely trained Todd Cantwell in one game equal to the time Tzolis had throughout the whole of 2022. 

Doesn't sound an overly logical or fair management style when you play someone who doesn't 'show up' to training over someone who hasn't 'shown enough'.   By contrast Tzolis got a full 1 minute in that in that game, naughty boy.

He can put that besides the 3 minutes vs Everton and 1 Minute vs Burnley and walk from this club proud.

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Smith worked with and signed players from all over the world and hasn't shown any preference towards British players in his career. 

Haha, sure there was no Grealish love-in that paved his villa success.  And Grealish isn't one for the banter is he. lol.

Made captain on the basis of Jack being a "local", and Villa being "his" club.  Jacky boy out injured for 3 months, walked straight back in as team captain the first game he was fit.  And was all good.

Remind me how Smith got on after his Grealish left? 🤪

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Sorry, It's not clear what you're saying here as not sure what "its" relates to.  Is it this:

"it's you that seems to think (British) banter is a negative to non-british players" 

If so, then it's not so much non-British, but rather how well players fit in.

I don't think Tzolis has many of the foundations to thrive in an environment, made worse following his blasting that Farke gave publicly. I think that mix of outcomes has not served him well to settle here.

It's like going from one extreme to the other while you're trying to acclimate in a new country at such a young age.

I mean, this is all quite obvious to me and I'm sure you don't need it explaining either.  To suggest that Rowe and Springett could shine better in an environment that Tzolis struggles is hardly ground breaking stuff.

"He's whole spiel is based around British banter, those who thrive in that environment get the nod as people he puts trust in.  I don't think Tzolis's character fits in with that."

It's about your assumption that Tzolis has been let down by Smith because he has somehow made the training ground an inhospitable place for non-british players. There is no evidence at all that the training ground is like that, nor at any of his other clubs.

[king canary 7,606]

12 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Haha, sure there was no Grealish love-in that paved his villa success.  And Grealish isn't one for the banter is he. lol.

Made captain on the basis of Jack being a "local", and Villa being "his" club.  Jacky boy out injured for 3 months, walked straight back in as team captain the first game he was fit.  And was all good.

Remind me how Smith got on after his Grealish left? 🤪

So he built his team around an exceptionally talented British player and this means he loves and prefers British players?

Mate, that is moron level logic. 

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

I have to say there are some well thought out, well presented arguments in favour of Tzolis. I'm not really seeing any opposite arguments.

Given our 'cash flow' situation and inability to buy until we sell, the loan before you buy doesn't make sense. It just feels we're being too nice here - 'yeah try him out, if you like what you see pay next year no worries, and if you don't send him back'.

And this is on the basis of him not even played a single pre season match yet.

[Google Bot 3,275]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

It's about your assumption that Tzolis has been let down by Smith because he has somehow made the training ground an inhospitable place for non-british players. There is no evidence at all that the training ground is like that, nor at any of his other clubs.

Never said anything about him being let down, and you brought in the term "Non-british".  I merely said that he loves british players, and had to further qualify that in not being binary.  I.e. if you love a man it doesn't mean you can't love a woman.

My point, my assumption - whatever.  Has been very clear in that Tzolis has found himself in the **** scenario of moving to a new country at a very young age, publicly blasted by the first manager he's worked with, and secondly had to adapt to a culture change of a new manager who's methods are based more around British banter.

Whether you want to accept that change could or could not be unsettling is up to you. Extending it out that I'm suggesting Smith is some kind of anti-foreign manager, or he's deliberately creating hostile environments is just pure **** and you know it.

[Google Bot 3,275]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

So he built his team around an exceptionally talented British player and this means he loves and prefers British players?

He'll be looking for players in the British game as a preference of course.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

He'll be looking for players in the British game as a preference of course.

It does seem likely given how a number of players we signed over recent years would no longer be allowed.

[hertfordyellow 460]

29 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Never said anything about him being let down, and you brought in the term "Non-british".  I merely said that he loves british players, and had to further qualify that in not being binary.  I.e. if you love a man it doesn't mean you can't love a woman.

My point, my assumption - whatever.  Has been very clear in that Tzolis has found himself in the **** scenario of moving to a new country at a very young age, publicly blasted by the first manager he's worked with, and secondly had to adapt to a culture change of a new manager who's methods are based more around British banter.

Whether you want to accept that change could or could not be unsettling is up to you. Extending it out that I'm suggesting Smith is some kind of anti-foreign manager, or he's deliberately creating hostile environments is just pure **** and you know it.

You literally said he favoured the British players in the squad and said He's whole spiel is based around British banter. I'm not extending anything out, it's what you said. You are all over the place with this and flailing badly.

[Google Bot 3,275]

11 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

It does seem likely given how a number of players we signed over recent years would no longer be allowed.

Yes, Smith himself praised Brexit at Villa as it would give them more chance of competing/breaking into the elite as it narrows the gap.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Haha, sure there was no Grealish love-in that paved his villa success.  And Grealish isn't one for the banter is he. lol.

Made captain on the basis of Jack being a "local", and Villa being "his" club.  Jacky boy out injured for 3 months, walked straight back in as team captain the first game he was fit.  And was all good.

Remind me how Smith got on after his Grealish left? 🤪

This makes me think you might be on the wind-up.

Just because the best player at Villa when Smith arrived happened to be English (and who has subsequently become the most expensive English player of all time), it means that Smith is automatically biased towards English players?

During the four seasons in which he coached Brentford (admittedly he left for Villa after around a quarter of the season in his fourth one), the top scorers were Lasse Vibe (Danish) and Neal Maupay (French), twice each. Most of the other key forwards during Smith's reign were non-British, such as Jota, Said Benrahma, Florian Jozefzoon and Sergi Canos. The regular back four in his final full season consisted of three non-British players in Andreas Bjelland, Henrik Dalsgaard (both Danish) and Yohan Barbet (French). 

The theory that Smith is biased towards English players is a rather bizarre conclusion to draw, if you're being serious.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[hogesar 9,671]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

This makes me think you might be on the wind-up.

Just because the best player at Villa when Smith arrived happened to be English (and who has subsequently become the most expensive English player of all time), it means that Smith is automatically biased towards English players?

During the four seasons in which he coached Brentford (admittedly he left for Villa after around a quarter of the season in his fourth one), the top scorers were Lasse Vibe (Danish) and Neal Maupay (French), twice each. Most of the other key forwards during Smith's reign were non-British, such as Jota, Said Benrahma, Florian Jozefsoon and Sergi Canos. The regular back four in his final full season consisted of three non-British players in Andreas Bjelland, Henrik Dalsgaard (both Danish) and Yohan Barnet (French). 

The theory that Smith is biased towards English players is a rather bizarre conclusion to draw, if you're being serious.

To be fair he could pretend he was on the wind up now as a quick escape from looking so silly.

[Google Bot 3,275]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

You literally said he favoured the British players in the squad

Oh did I? Please quote me where I've "literally" said that on here.

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

He's whole spiel is based around British banter.

Which it is, yes.  Culturally much different to Farke's regime for sure, which is the point I was making in regards to Tzolis's time with us and the changes he has endured whilst settling in.

1 minute ago, hertfordyellow said:

You are all over the place with this and flailing badly.

No, you've just made some very poor assumptions I'm afraid.  This is the problem when you try and profile people and be a smart ****.

I said that Smith "loves British players".  And somehow you've got your knickers in a twist to reading that as being some anti "non-British" sentiment.  If I thought he had a genuine dislike to foreigners I'd come out and say it - absolutely no skin off my nose.

[Google Bot 3,275]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

To be fair he could pretend he was on the wind up now as a quick escape from looking so silly.

No wind up, and no escape.  As for looking Silly - well, that's for the beholder to judge not me.

[Google Bot 3,275]

19 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

The theory that Smith is biased towards English players is a rather bizarre conclusion to draw, if you're being serious.

Well I hadn't planned on it being a theory, but yes I'm deadly serious in that Rowe and Springett are jumping the queue ahead of Tzolis because Smith gels with them on a personal level.

You don't buy that, fine.  Move on.

If you wanna argue about it, I'm happy to do so but you won't get anywhere with me as I'm stubborn as an ox, ten times your intellect and type faster than a room full of Barbara Blackburns.

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Well I hadn't planned on it being a theory, but yes I'm deadly serious in that Rowe and Springett are jumping the queue ahead of Tzolis because Smith gels with them on a personal level.

The problem is the jump from 'he played them over Tzolis' to 'he played them because he gels with them on a personal level because they're british' is such a giant leap that people are understandably want some evidence.

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Oh did I? Please quote me where I've "literally" said that on here

 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Well I did read your posts on this thread and the assumptions you make are baseless.  That you have now responded with this ‘irrefutably’ confirms that fact.

You say ‘what’s made up?’ then proceed to say ‘of course I don’t know’!    You are of course allowed to theorise but you look pretty silly if you leave out many fundamental issues that may affect the situation as you have here and I don’t think that you left them out conveniently either, more likely it seems don’t understand human nature and football at that level.   Whether we should cut our losses or not is another matter and the club may be right in moving him on but I don't see that its necessarily his fault and based on all the evidence, the fault lies with the club for poor acquisition, (he wasn't what we needed at the time) and possibly poor scouting if he wasn't as good in reality.   

A chance isn’t the odd game here or there, it’s a run of games, an opportunity to get used to EPL football (which in itself can take a full season), to raise confidence and to thrive.   Now he never had that and frankly no one in an offensive position was ever going to gain confidence or thrive last season.  The reason was it’s a team game and this team was just dysfunctional.   Rashica did as well as could be expected until even his will was broken. Asking any forward to thrive in that set up was asking too much.

We are talking about a very young kid, far from home away from family and friends (they are all human factors) trying to get to grips with a standard of football that even the experienced players failed to do.   He had high expectations of himself and on him and when the Liverpool game came around, fair play to the lad for wanting to step up and try to take his opportunity to get more of a look in.   It wasn’t the right thing to do but he wanted to impress.    I can understand his eagerness at the time.   Farke didn’t handle that situation well in my opinion.  When you say he’s ‘played worse’ since; worse than what exactly, only there is no body of work to base that on in the first place.   Don’t quote Bournemouth, a game against their reserves!  

Now I don’t know what you understand about the impact confidence has but it is crucial in high level sport.   With the expectation he undoubtedly had (as many had for him) at the outset, he came in having played very well the season before starting games, scoring and creating goals.    His experiences in the early months, not getting selected may well have dented that confidence and that would be a valid reason for a poorer performance if there was one.  

Against Newcastle away he started that game, held a position out wide and Williams failed to find him constantly whether he dropped out or made runs inside… Williams was absolutely woeful that day as he was generally when going forward.   Tzolis tried, did ok, would have scored had it not hit the lads arm and still got dragged at half-time when we desperately needed to use the width.    That was on Smith, he let us labour without intensity against 10 men.   Now, to my mind anyone that picks Platcheta at this level of football has questions to answer, even at Championship level he’s proved incapable.  Whilst I am hopeful with Smith, the signs aren’t great. That Tzolis was missing out on opportunity to Platcheta, it’s understandable if he got frustrated.    Its simply not unreasonable to argue that his experiences with us this year have had an impact on his confidence, his desire and his attitude.    The fact he is so young and in his circumstance makes it all the more understandable.    With confidence drained, Rowe and Springett then overtook him in the pecking order, again understandable if he got further demoralised. 

So are you criticising him when you say he lacks ‘mentality’ and ‘resilience’, a 19-20 year old lad in a foreign environment.   These aren’t football issues but human ones, natural ones that impact a person in different ways.   He can’t help how he is but the club has to do all it can to alleviate that, whether they have or not I don’t know but based on all of the above, I would always give the lad the benefit of any doubt and not be critical.     

As for your last paragraph, dear me. All the above explains why that is nonsense.   Consider Sorensen in that scenario… clearly doesn’t train well by your logic since he never gets selected, yet turns up on the odd occasion, does a very good job for us then gets dropped.    Tzolis hasn’t had that opportunity as yet.

I hope he gets to stay and gets to prove himself but if he doesn’t, good luck to him but he doesn't deserve your kind of character assassination..

Character assassination, yeah ok. Like the one you’re trying to peddle on me? Aware of my age are you? But happy to call me silly and say I don’t understand human emotion, because all humans are completely the same emotionally are they? If you think this you’re as clueless  mad you think I am. Jury is out on Sorensen in my view. Has had better games and worse ones. 
You also apply a nice chunk of hypocrisy by stating with great confidence that Rowe and Springett overtook Tzolis because his confidence was drained. What evidence do you have for this this nugget of insight? Why is your theory ok to be baseless whereas mine is not? Big press release of statement made about how Tzolis has lost all of his confidence and that this was because big bad Daniel told him he shouldn’t have ignored team orders? So this is what, conjecture? Thought so, it’s just that I’m not insulting you for theorising this. It’s perfectly possible and up to you, but for gods sake let’s not let Rowe or Springett overhear your theory in case they realise they’re not in the team on merit but because Tzolis never got given a chance. 
if Placheta (agree is pants) is getting ahead of Tzolis then he is training better than Tzolis. My trust of Smith is greater than my trust of your expertise and it’s fair to say that he had watched him playing in training far more than you or I have on the pitch. Managers and coaches look for potential and take some risks. If they’re not willing to risk playing Tzolis ahead of Placheta in order to see if any potential he has comes to fruition or even feel with preseason underway that he is worth keeping for a league below, then clearly the risks are too great and the balance of probability is that he isn’t that good OR we are better off taking a financial bath of a million or so because we as a club are all about letting go of the odd million - that’s really sustainable isn’t it 😂. 

Let me retract any comments I’ve made about him possibly lacking resilience or lacking willingness to graft just so in the unlikely event he has found his way into the forum for a detailed review of his talent, I’m not going to make him cry - even if he has the confidence as a fresh new player to overrule the team and take a penalty against Liverpool, so clearly a shrinking violet. I’ll just replace my baseless theory with ‘Smith knows better than us’

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

20 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

I assume you’re going to follow up with a game that he played that was better than his performance against Bournemouth to somehow refute this? Otherwise you’re just quoting me for no apparent reason. Which is weird. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Well I hadn't planned on it being a theory, but yes I'm deadly serious in that Rowe and Springett are jumping the queue ahead of Tzolis because Smith gels with them on a personal level.

You don't buy that, fine.  Move on.

If you wanna argue about it, I'm happy to do so but you won't get anywhere with me as I'm stubborn as an ox, ten times your intellect and type faster than a room full of Barbara Blackburns.

What statistical measure are you using for the ten times cleverer claim? I’m not saying it’s not the case, but an opinion or claim that Smith is a xenophobe is a very difficult thing to measure intellect against.  

[Google Bot 3,275]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

The problem is the jump from 'he played them over Tzolis' to 'he played them because he gels with them on a personal level because they're british' is such a giant leap that people are understandably want some evidence.

Evidence of what exactly? 

It's a flippant comment, are you really that **** about such things?!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

“If he's down we failed to support him and show him belief, if he's too confident we should've cashed in on that attitude and played him. Truth is Farke had an un-necessary public blast of him, and Smith loves his British players.  They tried to push him into U23's and he refused as wanted to be first team - Them be the facts.”

This little nugget from earlier is good. So confident he wrestled the penalty responsibilities and then……. Missed. Playing players that don’t play for the team and show misplaced confidence is a bit silly. I’d hate to argue with all those ‘facts’ that he was pushed into the U23s but refused as he wanted first team but was blocked by either a manager that should accept being undermined or by a manager that would rather an allegedly brilliant player be ousted in favour of some Brits just because they’re Brits. I’d love to see how long that unfair dismissal tribunal would last. 

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

-Snipped image-

Nowhere in that screenshot do I "literally" say he favoured the British players in the squad. I swear some of you lot are bored ****less at home.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Nowhere in that screenshot do I "literally" say he favoured the British players in the squad. I swear some of you lot are bored ****less at home.

Splitting hairs but you do infer it by saying ‘Smith loves his British players’ then immediately say he was forced into the U23s. 

You’ve commented loads on this thread, so you’re as bored as we are and no point arguing as I’m just making a flippant comment and I’m easily ten times cleverer than you 😉

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

8 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Splitting hairs but you do infer it by saying ‘Smith loves his British players’ then immediately say he was forced into the U23s. 

You’ve commented loads on this thread, so you’re as bored as we are and no point arguing as I’m just making a flippant comment and I’m easily ten times cleverer than you 😉

Does that mean that you're 100 times cleverer that Wackyo Waveyo inflatable thingy arm man?

Edited June 27, 2022 by wcorkcanary

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

35 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I assume you’re going to follow up with a game that he played that was better than his performance against Bournemouth to somehow refute this? Otherwise you’re just quoting me for no apparent reason. Which is weird. 

No. You claimed your reason for Tzolis being dropped was an irrefutable fact, when it can only have been a surmise on your part, albeit a plausible surmise, but I decided it was an unnecessarily semantic point and so scrubbed the post.

[Google Bot 3,275]

14 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

What statistical measure are you using for the ten times cleverer claim? I’m not saying it’s not the case, but an opinion or claim that Smith is a xenophobe is a very difficult thing to measure intellect against.  

Was simply making the point that it's an impossibility if they choose to argue with me, for the reasons stated.

Furthermore, I said "ten times their intellect", not "cleverer", and also never claimed or carried the opinion that Dean Smith is a "xenophobe".

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

8 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Does that mean that you're 100 times cleverer that Wackyo Waveyo inflatable thingy arm man?

God, that’s next level Maths. You must be evil genius level intellect. All hail corky 😂😂

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No. You claimed your reason for Tzolis being dropped was an irrefutable fact, when it can only have been a surmise on your part, albeit a plausible surmise, but I decided it was an unnecessarily semantic point and so scrubbed the post.

Fair enough. Well explained. I’ll stand down 

[Google Bot 3,275]

17 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Splitting hairs but you do infer it by saying ‘Smith loves his British players’ then immediately say he was forced into the U23s. 

Oh ok, so if I love my sister, I can't love my brother - is that your logic here?  

I'm not inferring anything by saying that Smith loves his British players other than he loves his British players.

Tzolis was forced into the U23's because he fell in the pecking order, and the club wanted him to receive game time.  How the hell can you inflate that to Smith being a xenophobe?!  lol