Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[ged in the onion bag 854]

9 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

What’s made up? That he stopped playing well? Are you serious?! So he smashes it in training and doesn’t get picked then? Is that how it works. He clearly played worse than all those in competition for his place which puts him into the category of not playing well. I’m only conjecturing about what triggered his poor play, it’s perfectly possible that he was always poor but watching him vs Bournemouth I don’t think that’s totally the case, so he plays worse following a game where he got a telling off is not a big jump to assume that one led to the other. 
Let me correct myself, he either 

was always bad, had a good flakey game vs Bournemouth OR 

was decent but played worse which may or may not be because he got told off OR 

Was decent but played worse because he just didn’t want to play well for us 

Was decent but played worse because he misses home 

what is irrefutable is that he played worse, as I said before he wouldn’t be benched if he was the best we had in that position. That has to be true unless you can come up with a reason otherwise? If the first reason is not true then any one of the other three shows he either lacks the mentality, willingness or resilience to succeed for us. Of course I don’t know, but if by nonsense you mean reasoned hypothesis then that’s ok. 

Ate we only allowed to theorise and discuss completely irrefutable facts on this forum then? Probably makes for a bit of a boring discourse. It’s an open forum, to discuss the club and players is perfectly reasonable.

I’ll counter by saying that your suggestion he ‘hasn’t had a chance’ is utter nonsense that you clearly believe yourself. Has he been locked in a cupboard during the countless hours, days, weeks, months of training this last year? No, so yes he has had a chance, one the same as all the other new arrivals had. You don’t pick a player on match day that’s shown you he is not the best in training do you? Do I know this - course not, is it likely, yes. 

Well I did read your posts on this thread and the assumptions you make are baseless.  That you have now responded with this ‘irrefutably’ confirms that fact.

You say ‘what’s made up?’ then proceed to say ‘of course I don’t know’!    You are of course allowed to theorise but you look pretty silly if you leave out many fundamental issues that may affect the situation as you have here and I don’t think that you left them out conveniently either, more likely it seems don’t understand human nature and football at that level.   Whether we should cut our losses or not is another matter and the club may be right in moving him on but I don't see that its necessarily his fault and based on all the evidence, the fault lies with the club for poor acquisition, (he wasn't what we needed at the time) and possibly poor scouting if he wasn't as good in reality.   

A chance isn’t the odd game here or there, it’s a run of games, an opportunity to get used to EPL football (which in itself can take a full season), to raise confidence and to thrive.   Now he never had that and frankly no one in an offensive position was ever going to gain confidence or thrive last season.  The reason was it’s a team game and this team was just dysfunctional.   Rashica did as well as could be expected until even his will was broken. Asking any forward to thrive in that set up was asking too much.

We are talking about a very young kid, far from home away from family and friends (they are all human factors) trying to get to grips with a standard of football that even the experienced players failed to do.   He had high expectations of himself and on him and when the Liverpool game came around, fair play to the lad for wanting to step up and try to take his opportunity to get more of a look in.   It wasn’t the right thing to do but he wanted to impress.    I can understand his eagerness at the time.   Farke didn’t handle that situation well in my opinion.  When you say he’s ‘played worse’ since; worse than what exactly, only there is no body of work to base that on in the first place.   Don’t quote Bournemouth, a game against their reserves!  

Now I don’t know what you understand about the impact confidence has but it is crucial in high level sport.   With the expectation he undoubtedly had (as many had for him) at the outset, he came in having played very well the season before starting games, scoring and creating goals.    His experiences in the early months, not getting selected may well have dented that confidence and that would be a valid reason for a poorer performance if there was one.  

Against Newcastle away he started that game, held a position out wide and Williams failed to find him constantly whether he dropped out or made runs inside… Williams was absolutely woeful that day as he was generally when going forward.   Tzolis tried, did ok, would have scored had it not hit the lads arm and still got dragged at half-time when we desperately needed to use the width.    That was on Smith, he let us labour without intensity against 10 men.   Now, to my mind anyone that picks Platcheta at this level of football has questions to answer, even at Championship level he’s proved incapable.  Whilst I am hopeful with Smith, the signs aren’t great. That Tzolis was missing out on opportunity to Platcheta, it’s understandable if he got frustrated.    Its simply not unreasonable to argue that his experiences with us this year have had an impact on his confidence, his desire and his attitude.    The fact he is so young and in his circumstance makes it all the more understandable.    With confidence drained, Rowe and Springett then overtook him in the pecking order, again understandable if he got further demoralised. 

So are you criticising him when you say he lacks ‘mentality’ and ‘resilience’, a 19-20 year old lad in a foreign environment.   These aren’t football issues but human ones, natural ones that impact a person in different ways.   He can’t help how he is but the club has to do all it can to alleviate that, whether they have or not I don’t know but based on all of the above, I would always give the lad the benefit of any doubt and not be critical.     

As for your last paragraph, dear me. All the above explains why that is nonsense.   Consider Sorensen in that scenario… clearly doesn’t train well by your logic since he never gets selected, yet turns up on the odd occasion, does a very good job for us then gets dropped.    Tzolis hasn’t had that opportunity as yet.

I hope he gets to stay and gets to prove himself but if he doesn’t, good luck to him but he doesn't deserve your kind of character assassination..

[Jim Smith 2,314]

I'm sorry i just think this hawking Tzolis around is a complete and utter failure on the part of our club, Webber and the coaches we have.

This kid is 19. He was very highly rated when we picked him up. Yes we can probably all say in hindsight it was the wrong signing at the wrong time but what message does it send when we are trying to ditch the player 1 year into a long contract just to try and recoup some money for him.

Smith is supposedly well known as a good coach and a guy who is good for young players. If so lets back him to turn Tzolis's Norwich career around. We are playing at a more forgiving level where there is a good chance his confidence will be restrored so lets give that a chance to happen. I just find it immensely frustrating that we appear to be jettisoning a £10m player without giving them a chance or without really giving the whole relationship a chance to work. I want us to keep him, back his ability and back the ability of our coaches and club to bring the best out of him. You just know if we sell him then in 2 or 3 years time he's going to be making us look stupid by moving to some massive European club for a feee way in excess of £10m. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

46 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Well I did read your posts on this thread and the assumptions you make are baseless.  That you have now responded with this ‘irrefutably’ confirms that fact.

You say ‘what’s made up?’ then proceed to say ‘of course I don’t know’!    You are of course allowed to theorise but you look pretty silly if you leave out many fundamental issues that may affect the situation as you have here and I don’t think that you left them out conveniently either, more likely it seems don’t understand human nature and football at that level.   Whether we should cut our losses or not is another matter and the club may be right in moving him on but I don't see that its necessarily his fault and based on all the evidence, the fault lies with the club for poor acquisition, (he wasn't what we needed at the time) and possibly poor scouting if he wasn't as good in reality.   

A chance isn’t the odd game here or there, it’s a run of games, an opportunity to get used to EPL football (which in itself can take a full season), to raise confidence and to thrive.   Now he never had that and frankly no one in an offensive position was ever going to gain confidence or thrive last season.  The reason was it’s a team game and this team was just dysfunctional.   Rashica did as well as could be expected until even his will was broken. Asking any forward to thrive in that set up was asking too much.

We are talking about a very young kid, far from home away from family and friends (they are all human factors) trying to get to grips with a standard of football that even the experienced players failed to do.   He had high expectations of himself and on him and when the Liverpool game came around, fair play to the lad for wanting to step up and try to take his opportunity to get more of a look in.   It wasn’t the right thing to do but he wanted to impress.    I can understand his eagerness at the time.   Farke didn’t handle that situation well in my opinion.  When you say he’s ‘played worse’ since; worse than what exactly, only there is no body of work to base that on in the first place.   Don’t quote Bournemouth, a game against their reserves!  

Now I don’t know what you understand about the impact confidence has but it is crucial in high level sport.   With the expectation he undoubtedly had (as many had for him) at the outset, he came in having played very well the season before starting games, scoring and creating goals.    His experiences in the early months, not getting selected may well have dented that confidence and that would be a valid reason for a poorer performance if there was one.  

Against Newcastle away he started that game, held a position out wide and Williams failed to find him constantly whether he dropped out or made runs inside… Williams was absolutely woeful that day as he was generally when going forward.   Tzolis tried, did ok, would have scored had it not hit the lads arm and still got dragged at half-time when we desperately needed to use the width.    That was on Smith, he let us labour without intensity against 10 men.   Now, to my mind anyone that picks Platcheta at this level of football has questions to answer, even at Championship level he’s proved incapable.  Whilst I am hopeful with Smith, the signs aren’t great. That Tzolis was missing out on opportunity to Platcheta, it’s understandable if he got frustrated.    Its simply not unreasonable to argue that his experiences with us this year have had an impact on his confidence, his desire and his attitude.    The fact he is so young and in his circumstance makes it all the more understandable.    With confidence drained, Rowe and Springett then overtook him in the pecking order, again understandable if he got further demoralised. 

So are you criticising him when you say he lacks ‘mentality’ and ‘resilience’, a 19-20 year old lad in a foreign environment.   These aren’t football issues but human ones, natural ones that impact a person in different ways.   He can’t help how he is but the club has to do all it can to alleviate that, whether they have or not I don’t know but based on all of the above, I would always give the lad the benefit of any doubt and not be critical.     

As for your last paragraph, dear me. All the above explains why that is nonsense.   Consider Sorensen in that scenario… clearly doesn’t train well by your logic since he never gets selected, yet turns up on the odd occasion, does a very good job for us then gets dropped.    Tzolis hasn’t had that opportunity as yet.

I hope he gets to stay and gets to prove himself but if he doesn’t, good luck to him but he doesn't deserve your kind of character assassination..

I agree about that Newcastle game. Yes stuff didn't come off but in the space of 45 minutes he had a goal denied by a blatant handball, had a couple of decent shots and set Sargent up when he somehow managed to miss from a yard. He makes decent runs, gets in good positions and does make things happen when he plays. I thought it was a bad decision to sub him off. In fact Smiths decision making in that game was iffy full stop and it was obvious that what we needed to do was get Dimi on alongside Tzolis and stretch them down the left yet we waited until about the 80th minute. He was pretty good in the first half at Arsenal as well.

I am certainly struggling to see why some players get endless opportunities whereas he is being written off after a few 45 minute cameo's in a sh*t team. 

[hogesar 9,618]

6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I'm sorry i just think this hawking Tzolis around is a complete and utter failure on the part of our club, Webber and the coaches we have.

This kid is 19. He was very highly rated when we picked him up. Yes we can probably all say in hindsight it was the wrong signing at the wrong time but what message does it send when we are trying to ditch the player 1 year into a long contract just to try and recoup some money for him.

 

Or alternatively, the player wants out, has wanted out for a while, doesn't feel settled in England and we're just not trying to force him to stay against his will?

It's not always the club being big bad meanies Jim, remember that occasionally 🙂

 

[Mello Yello 2,281]

....and yet Todd gets more chances than there's in a Monopoly game?.....

[Google Bot 3,256]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

It's not always the club being big bad meanies Jim, remember that occasionally

Many players "Want out", it's the reasoning behind that and how we react that's being questioned.

He was perfectly happy in the cup matches, and then left to rot throughout second half of season - it's entirely down to our management of the lad.  We've offered him absolutely no fulfilment.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Or alternatively, the player wants out, has wanted out for a while, doesn't feel settled in England and we're just not trying to force him to stay against his will?

It's not always the club being big bad meanies Jim, remember that occasionally 🙂

 

Sorry i don't buy this new found "if the player wants out" line that gets trotted out now all the time. Firstly we have no idea whether he wants out. I certainly don't see why he'd be desperate to move to Belgium anyway. Secondly, if the club sells a player every time their agent says they want out then we won't have any players left. Thirdly, of late the club seems to create situations where players are not happy by freezing out players, not giving them a fair crack of the whip etc. If we have several players in that boat then its partly because we have created a lop sided and poorly planned squad.

I've got no doubt Sargent will be given a chance next season and I'm not against that - he seems a good lad and the lower level may be what he needs to re-gain cofidence. I don't see why Tzolis is not the same other than he seems to fall into the "too difficult" and "could get some cash for him" categories. 

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Sorry i don't buy this new found "if the player wants out" line that gets trotted out now all the time. Firstly we have no idea whether he wants out.

No, we don't know. That's the point of my post. You seem more than happy to assume that the club wants to force him out the door though. It's the double standards stuff again from you.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Many players "Want out", it's the reasoning behind that and how we react that's being questioned.

He was perfectly happy in the cup matches, and then left to rot throughout second half of season - it's entirely down to our management of the lad.  We've offered him absolutely no fulfilment.

Again, this is assumption. Just like you can look at the reasoning behind him wanting out, can we not look at the reasoning behind two managers not playing him? Could he have already downed tools upon Smiths arrival? No interest in training for a new manager? Did he turn up late for training multiple times? Has he fallen out with key players? Has he disrespected coaches? Has he told the club in January he doesn't want to be here anymore already?

There's some weird rhetoric with Tzolis over others that it's all one-way traffic, as if the club have sought out every imaginable way of ruining the lads career. The problem is, that directly disadvantages us so doesn't really add up as something we'd want to do.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

If Rowe and Springett, who are both essentially competing for the same position, have got on instead of Tzolis, what does that say about the level Tzolis is currently at?

I suspect it's a case of him not settling, which would be understandable.

[Google Bot 3,256]

37 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Again, this is assumption.

You say assumption, we've seen him go from playing against Liverpool in the cup, to having a finger pointed as the reason we lost, labelled "Naïve", and called an "emotional" Greek.

....Very shortly went to not playing at all, barring injuries to other players.

It's not such a wild assumption to see that he's been horrendously mis-managed.  

Even if we play the scenario where he's not settled in England, what do you think is the best course of action in that scenario? To force him into training each day and then sit on a bench some weeks, others completely overlooked?  46 minutes since the new year, in a squad getting it's **** handed to them most weeks is somehow conducive in helping a player in that state?

If he's down we failed to support him and show him belief, if he's too confident we should've cashed in on that attitude and played him. Truth is Farke had an un-necessary public blast of him, and Smith loves his British players.  They tried to push him into U23's and he refused as wanted to be first team - Them be the facts.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Google Bot

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

22 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Smith loves his British players. 

What are you basing that on? During his time at Villa and Brentford, the majority of signings made by both clubs whilst Smith was there were non-British.

Let's not forget that players such as Benrahma, Maupay and Canos were all signed and developed under Smith's tenure at Brentford in the Championship.

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

No, we don't know. That's the point of my post. You seem more than happy to assume that the club wants to force him out the door though. It's the double standards stuff again from you.

Wasn't there a strong rumour he refused to play some U23 games? Put this with his penalty behaviour, maybe there is a lot going on with him which has made his stay untenable? I would say Webber is desperate for him to do well this season, as he signed him. I want him to stay tbh but there must be solid reasons we don't know for him to leave like this.

[hertfordyellow 460]

9 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

What are you basing that on? During his time at Villa and Brentford, the majority of signings made by both clubs whilst Smith was there were non-British.

Let's not forget that players such as Benrahma, Maupay and Canos were all signed and developed under Smith's tenure at Brentford in the Championship.

He looks very British, so he must play 4-4-2 and sign British players obviously.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

2 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

He looks very British, so he must play 4-4-2 and sign British players obviously.

Exactly, just like how a German coach would assemble physical, highly structured, organised efficient teams with little emphasis on individual flair.

[Google Bot 3,256]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

What are you basing that on? During his time at Villa and Brentford, the majority of signings made by both clubs whilst Smith was there were non-British.

Doesn't mean he doesn't love British players(?!).

Brought Rowe and Springett in when we had Tzolis wanting games.  Quick to forge alliances with Gibson, Hanley & McLean.. 

He's whole spiel is based around British banter, those who thrive in that environment get the nod as people he puts trust in.  I don't think Tzolis's character fits in with that. 

Rowe, Spingett, Gilmour, Hanley, Gibson, McLean does - hence why they are brought in whenever possible.

Krul, Pukki, Normann all fit that profile too.   Smith couldn't wait to bring Cantwell vs Southampton where he was clearly unsuitable to start a match.

[hogesar 9,618]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Doesn't mean he doesn't love British players(?!).

Brought Rowe and Springett in when we had Tzolis wanting games.  Quick to forge alliances with Gibson, Hanley & McLean.. 

He's whole spiel is based around British banter, those who thrive in that environment get the nod as people he puts trust in.  I don't think Tzolis's character fits in with that. 

Rowe, Spingett, Gilmour, Hanley, Gibson, McLean does - hence why they are brought in whenever possible.

Krul, Pukki, Normann all fit that profile too.   Smith couldn't wait to bring Cantwell vs Southampton where he was clearly unsuitable to start a match.

Hanley Gibson Mclean also played under Farke who doesn't fit around 'british banter' - this seems like more conjecture on your part.

Tzolis came on against Southampton albeit only for a couple of minutes in Smiths first game, by the way. You may have forgotten due to how anonymous he was.He also then playted 22 minutes against Wolves at home and offered nothing. He then played 46 minutes away to Newcaslte where I thought he at least got a couple of shots away against a team with 10 men.

Unofrtunately, he then played 20 minutes at home to Arsenal and didn't even try to get involved in the game.

He then played 70 minutes away to Palace which we lost 3-0, he was the worst player on the pitch by some stretch. He did get another 20 minutes away to West Ham a couple of weeks later, but again offered nothing.

Also, he maybe he brought Rowe and Springett in because they were out-performing Tzolis in training? 

This weird super-defence of Tzolis is so irrational it's becoming funny to see the excuses being made up now! "tZ0lis wernt BRITISH enuff for SMIF!"

Edited June 27, 2022 by hogesar

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Doesn't mean he doesn't love British players(?!).

Brought Rowe and Springett in when we had Tzolis wanting games.  Quick to forge alliances with Gibson, Hanley & McLean.. 

He's whole spiel is based around British banter, those who thrive in that environment get the nod as people he puts trust in.  I don't think Tzolis's character fits in with that. 

Rowe, Spingett, Gilmour, Hanley, Gibson, McLean does - hence why they are brought in whenever possible.

Krul, Pukki, Normann all fit that profile too.   Smith couldn't wait to bring Cantwell vs Southampton where he was clearly unsuitable to start a match.

You mean the same Gibson that he dropped towards the end of the season, even bringing in the German Zimmerman? Cantwell who he binned off to Bournemouth more-or-less straight away, preferring to use the Kosovan Rashica in Cantwell's preferred position? 

And Hanley and McLean, despite the criticism that they get sometimes, were in our best XI on merit last season because they were better than the other options. 

I really don't get where this perception of Smith preferring British players comes from. Nor the theory than Pukki and Normann are typical British lads who love a bit of banter.

[Google Bot 3,256]

Just now, hogesar said:

Hanley Gibson Mclean also played under Farke who doesn't fit around 'british banter' - this seems like more conjecture on your part.

Only if you're dumb enough to think binary.  Why does it have to be one or the other? 

Smith may like pasta.  OMG so does Farke?! 

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

This weird super-defence of Tzolis is so irrational it's becoming funny to see the excuses being made up now! "tZ0lis wernt BRITISH enuff for SMIF!"

aka not settling in England.

[hogesar 9,618]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Only if you're dumb enough to think binary.  Why does it have to be one or the other? 

Smith may like pasta.  OMG so does Farke?! 

aka not settling in England.

Or as binary as Smith is British. OMG HE MUST LOVE BRITISH PLAYERS!

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

Doesn't mean he doesn't love British players(?!).

Brought Rowe and Springett in when we had Tzolis wanting games.  Quick to forge alliances with Gibson, Hanley & McLean.. 

He's whole spiel is based around British banter, those who thrive in that environment get the nod as people he puts trust in.  I don't think Tzolis's character fits in with that. 

Rowe, Spingett, Gilmour, Hanley, Gibson, McLean does - hence why they are brought in whenever possible.

Krul, Pukki, Normann all fit that profile too.   Smith couldn't wait to bring Cantwell vs Southampton where he was clearly unsuitable to start a match.

Farke a German coach dropped Tzolis. He also built a team around Gibson, Hanley and McLean. It was actually Smith who dropped Gibson. You then realised that there were loads of foreign players that he also trusted, so you just lumped Krul, Pukki and Normann as part of the 'British Banter'.

Absolute baseless, complete conjecture. "He's whole spiel is based around British banter", what is this based on?

[Google Bot 3,256]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Or as binary as Smith is British. OMG HE MUST LOVE BRITISH PLAYERS!

You know exactly what I meant.  Not even going to play silly games with you.

[Google Bot 3,256]

2 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Absolute baseless, complete conjecture. "He's whole spiel is based around British banter", what is this based on?

Watching them train and attending the evening with him and "Shakey" few months back.

[hertfordyellow 460]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Watching them train and attending the evening with him and "Shakey" few months back.

Every training session across the country will have banter, it's part of being a team. 

[A Load of Squit 5,129]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

You know exactly what I meant.  Not even going to play silly games with you.

Here's some help. Cut and paste this in your reply.

"I was wrong".

[Google Bot 3,256]

1 minute ago, hertfordyellow said:

Every training session across the country will have banter, it's part of being a team. 

Yes, so the issue with him using it to great effect is what exactly? 

[hertfordyellow 460]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Yes, so the issue with him using it to great effect is what exactly? 

There is no issue from me, it's you that seems to think its a negative to non-british players.

[Google Bot 3,256]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

There is no issue from me, it's you that seems to think its a negative to non-british players.

Sorry, It's not clear what you're saying here as not sure what "its" relates to.  Is it this:

"it's you that seems to think (British) banter is a negative to non-british players" 

If so, then it's not so much non-British, but rather how well players fit in.

I don't think Tzolis has many of the foundations to thrive in an environment, made worse following his blasting that Farke gave publicly. I think that mix of outcomes has not served him well to settle here.

It's like going from one extreme to the other while you're trying to acclimate in a new country at such a young age.

I mean, this is all quite obvious to me and I'm sure you don't need it explaining either.  To suggest that Rowe and Springett could shine better in an environment that Tzolis struggles is hardly ground breaking stuff.

[king canary 7,578]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I really don't get where this perception of Smith preferring British players comes from. Nor the theory than Pukki and Normann are typical British lads who love a bit of banter.

It comes from thin air because it doesn't stand up to the remotest bit of scrutiny. Smith worked with and signed players from all over the world and hasn't shown any preference towards British players in his career. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Or alternatively, the player wants out, has wanted out for a while, doesn't feel settled in England and we're just not trying to force him to stay against his will?

It's not always the club being big bad meanies Jim, remember that occasionally 🙂

Indeed. Or it could just be that Dean Smith doesn't fancy him having worked with him for several months. For me IF he hasn't shown enough in training then why should he be selected for a match day squad ahead of others who have? That's not mismanagement if so. 

Essentially we are all guessing but above all else I'd love to see him stay here and rip up the Championship. But it might be best for all parties if he has a fresh start elsewhere on this occasion.