Derby on the brink?

[dylanisabaddog 6,143]

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-administration-liquidation-hmrc-6290750

I suppose it had to happen sooner or later but this is still frightening news. HMRC is highly unlikely to do them a favour. 

[canarydan23 4,762]

3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-administration-liquidation-hmrc-6290750

I suppose it had to happen sooner or later but this is still frightening news. HMRC is highly unlikely to do them a favour. 

The English football community has sat back and watched the plights of club's with lengthy and proud histories like Bury, Chester City and Macclesfield Town with barely the faintest of shrugs.

Will the demise of two-time champion of the entire English football pyramid and previous FA Cup winner force it into some sort of meaningful reform?

Will it bo**ocks.

[sgncfc 1,330]

HMRC can't give in, too many other clubs also owe them tens of millions. Part of this problem is the complete ineptitude of administrators, whatever business they get involved in. It's a ridiculous system having to appoint accountants with no accountability themselves. The EFL and the PL should have their own people to act in this situation and their own hardship funds or levy for making sure that clubs cannot fold - many other industries have this in some form.

 

[canarydan23 4,762]

8 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

HMRC can't give in, too many other clubs also owe them tens of millions. Part of this problem is the complete ineptitude of administrators, whatever business they get involved in. It's a ridiculous system having to appoint accountants with no accountability themselves. The EFL and the PL should have their own people to act in this situation and their own hardship funds or levy for making sure that clubs cannot fold - many other industries have this in some form.

 

The whole system is ridiculous. The administrators are incentivised to prolong their time as custodians, as they get paid for it. I think there should be a permanent, state-employed panel of administrators sent in to do the job, rather than corporate entities motivated by the bottom line.

[duke63 739]

Why should football clubs have different rules to other businesses in financial difficulty?

Its time HMRC showed they will not allow football clubs to abuse the tax system by ignoring their liabilities.

Remember every non payer means either the burden falls on you and me or its another public service, maybe the NHS, that loses out.

It might knock some sense of reality into football club spending.

 

 

[canarybubbles 2,199]

The problem is endemic and starts at the very top. Clubs have to gamble to eat at the Premier League trough; some of them are lucky and some of them crash. If the play-off final between Villa and Derby had gone the other way, it's likely that Derby would now be where Villa are and vice versa.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by canarybubbles

[Well b back 3,605]

4 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

The problem is endemic and starts at the very top. Teams have to gamble to eat at the Premier League trough; some of them are lucky and some of them crash. If the play-off final between Villa and Derby had gone the other way, it's likely that Derby would now be where Villa are and vice versa.

 

Indeed, that really probably in its own right was one of the most important football matches ever played.

[Icecream Snow 777]

Apparently the debts are £26m to HMRC, £20m to MSD Holdings and £15m to football and trade creditors.

Rangers bounced back so I can see Derby being liquidated and kicked out of the league.

[canarybubbles 2,199]

Fans aren't totally innocent in all this either. The team we played a few days ago are the latest to join the moneyed elite, their fans are excited for their future, and who cares if this destroys the game or the source of the money is tainted?

But could we honestly say that most of us Norwich fans wouldn't be delighted if some dictator bought us with his blood money and we suddenly became part of the elite? Of course, we'd make the right noises and tut about the morality, but we'd manage to swallow our doubts and chant our team on.

The English football world many of us grew up with is dead.

[Commonsense 802]

6 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Fans aren't totally innocent in all this either. The team we played a few days ago are the latest to join the moneyed elite, their fans are excited for their future, and who cares if this destroys the game or the source of the money is tainted?

But could we honestly say that most of us Norwich fans wouldn't be delighted if some dictator bought us with his blood money and we suddenly became part of the elite? Of course, we'd make the right noises and tut about the morality, but we'd manage to swallow our doubts and chant our team on.

The English football world many of us grew up with is dead.

Is it? 
Look historically and clubs have gone bust in the past. In other industries liquidation happens, is there any reason for football to be radically different.

Remember the ‘proud clubs ‘ mentioned were appallingly run. Something people on here should remember when criticising our owners.

[Don’t be Krul 452]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-administration-liquidation-hmrc-6290750

I suppose it had to happen sooner or later but this is still frightening news. HMRC is highly unlikely to do them a favour. 

Come come Dylan, how do you know HMRC won't do them a favour???

[Canary Jedi 610]

Whatever the rights and wrongs, it’s still incredibly sad if Derby are liquidated and no longer exist.

[Capt. Pants 5,008]

45 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

Whatever the rights and wrongs, it’s still incredibly sad if Derby are liquidated and no longer exist.

This.

And you can hardly blame the fans like an earlier post.

Liquidating Derby FC isn't going to help HMRC and the public get the money its owed.

[canarybubbles 2,199]

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

Is it? 
Look historically and clubs have gone bust in the past. In other industries liquidation happens, is there any reason for football to be radically different.

Remember the ‘proud clubs ‘ mentioned were appallingly run. Something people on here should remember when criticising our owners.

Yes, I think it is, in the sense that football clubs used to be an extension of their local community and any one of them could reach the top of the tree - Huddersfield, Portsmouth, Derby, Forest, even Ipswich 🤣.

I agree with you totally about our owners, though. At least we can feel sure that NCFC will continue to exist in the future.

[Ian 1,211]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

HMRC can't give in, too many other clubs also owe them tens of millions. Part of this problem is the complete ineptitude of administrators, whatever business they get involved in. It's a ridiculous system having to appoint accountants with no accountability themselves.

 

Can vouch for that. A friend's client went into administration and I was absolutely shocked at how poorly (and self-servingly) they were run by the appointed administrators.

[percy varco 253]

A Football Club is a business whose owners look for a return. 
Paying taxes is part of business, if a business doesn’t pay taxes there should be consiquences. 
Derby’s attitude to the taxman is wrong. I have to pay my taxes so why shouldn’t they? 
Unless your name is Spaceman Jeff B……………

[1902 1,167]

And here we have the fundamental issue of football. It is run as a business, with those who profit and those who lose their money.

However it is also a cultural institution for communities up and down the country. I'm both massively saddened for the city of Derby if their club goes under, and feel that a business must be forced to pay it's taxes.

I'm of the opinion that a complete restructuring of how football works in this country is necessary, that means an appreciation that unmitigated, unmanaged spending is not responsible and needs to be regulated.

[dylanisabaddog 6,143]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

This.

And you can hardly blame the fans like an earlier post.

Liquidating Derby FC isn't going to help HMRC and the public get the money its owed.

Yes it is. HMRC is a preferential creditor. 

Edit - ignore that. It appears that Derby sold its ground to the owner some time ago so effectively they have no assets. 

But letting them off would send out the wrong message to other clubs and obviously non football businesses haven't been treated like that in the past. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by dylanisabaddog
Got it wrong

[chicken 3,086]

2 hours ago, duke63 said:

Why should football clubs have different rules to other businesses in financial difficulty?

Its time HMRC showed they will not allow football clubs to abuse the tax system by ignoring their liabilities.

Remember every non payer means either the burden falls on you and me or its another public service, maybe the NHS, that loses out.

It might knock some sense of reality into football club spending.

I think it's a double issue. Most football clubs bring in a fair amount of money compared to many businesses. Poor business management means that they are run into the ground. If it were any other business, I'd agree. But a football club isn't simply a brand. If a brand goes bust, someone might buy it for a £ to use the name.

If a football club goes, it goes, the leagues have to decide where the club can be resurrected from should anyone wish to do so. Then you have to look at the long road back. Starting from nothing bar a large stadium if it can be bought. AFC Wimbledon are a good example of this.

It's the fans I feel for the most. And that's why football differs in terms of impact upon people and communities. Football clubs started off as just that. An amateur sport. A spectator sport. Clubs used to run within their means. Leeds was a stark warning but wasn't heeded. And now we have our own fans slagging us off for not making the same gamble. Derby fans are a good bunch, I really feel for them. I also agree that the FA in this country really isn't doing enough in terms of fit and proper tests, or to keep some money aside to help some situations.

I don't think clubs should just be bailed out, but nor do I think that owners and administrators should be able to walk away scot free and leaving local businesses and the tax payer out of pocket and fans without a club. And that is on the FA. Perhaps it isn't a bad idea to be considering the German model right now?

[chicken 3,086]

17 minutes ago, percy varco said:

A Football Club is a business whose owners look for a return. 
Paying taxes is part of business, if a business doesn’t pay taxes there should be consiquences. 
Derby’s attitude to the taxman is wrong. I have to pay my taxes so why shouldn’t they? 
Unless your name is Spaceman Jeff B……………

It's not "Derby" though - it's the owners/board etc. And they get away without a problem. Probably with wads of cash in their pockets leaving the taxpayer to fill the void and the local businesses and fans in a hole. Seems hardly fair if you ask me.

Perhaps the HMRC should step in as administrators of the club before it gets that far?

[PurpleCanary 6,386]

2 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

Whatever the rights and wrongs, it’s still incredibly sad if Derby are liquidated and no longer exist.

But it can be revived in a different form, albeit at a cost. This has happened to a few clubs. Fiorentina went bankrupt in 2002 and in effect ceased to exist. A new club/company with a slightly different name and a new owner was formed which started in the fourth tier and worked its way back up.

[duke63 739]

24 minutes ago, chicken said:

It's not "Derby" though - it's the owners/board etc. And they get away without a problem. Probably with wads of cash in their pockets leaving the taxpayer to fill the void and the local businesses and fans in a hole. Seems hardly fair if you ask me.

Perhaps the HMRC should step in as administrators of the club before it gets that far?

If HMRC ran the club it would be worse than going bust. They couldn’t run a bath. 

[dylanisabaddog 6,143]

3 minutes ago, duke63 said:

If HMRC ran the club it would be worse than going bust. They couldn’t run a bath. 

In 6 weeks they designed computer systems to handle furlough and payments to the self employed. Those systems worked from day one and have never gone wrong despite the fact that the staff concerned did it from home. What a stupid pathetic comment. 

[duke63 739]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

In 6 weeks they designed computer systems to handle furlough and payments to the self employed. Those systems worked from day one and have never gone wrong despite the fact that the staff concerned did it from home. What a stupid pathetic comment. 

I work with HMRC every day in my job. 
They are a shambolic institution. They are  refusing to refund tax that companies are due. Yet they paid furlough to companies who never should have been allowed to claim it. 
just today I have phoned HMRC to ask them to set off CIS tax the company has deducted in 2014 against a 2021 liability that they had already referred to a debt collection agency. HMRC agreed to do it but they say the date it’s likely to be actioned by is 21 March next year!!!!!!
and most of their staff are still working from home. 

[dylanisabaddog 6,143]

3 minutes ago, duke63 said:

I work with HMRC every day in my job. 
They are a shambolic institution. They are  refusing to refund tax that companies are due. Yet they paid furlough to companies who never should have been allowed to claim it. 
just today I have phoned HMRC to ask them to set off CIS tax the company has deducted in 2014 against a 2021 liability that they had already referred to a debt collection agency. HMRC agreed to do it but they say the date it’s likely to be actioned by is 21 March next year!!!!!!
and most of their staff are still working from home. 

You work in the most corrupt industry in this country and have the nerve to criticise HMRC. Hang your head in shame. 

By the way, 1 in 3 bank accounts in tax havens around the world are controlled by a UK company or individual and that behaviour is enabled by people like you. 

https://www.accountancyage.com/2015/11/24/corruption-rife-among-accountants-says-survey-of-profession/

[Ward 3 484]

If they won't help out smaller clubs like Bury etc then stuff Derby. Look at how much they've spent on players and then cocu and Rooney. Stuff them. Never liked Derby anyway, many smaller clubs have gone ao let these morons go too

[shefcanary 2,955]

If they are liquidated, then the Official Reciever should go after the owner of the ground in court to recover something for HMRC and the tax payer. Then he should petition HM Govt to seek a change in the law to prevent football club owners ever being able to "sell" the ground to themselves. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by shefcanary

[nutty nigel 7,902]

The HMRC won't be to blame if Derby fold.

[Newtopia 573]

So sad for the Derby fans - we are so lucky to have Delia and Michael.  I do wonder if the league position could be given to the each clubs supporters Trust, who then have the right to gift the league place to the commercial club each season, separating the clubs existence from the financial management.

[K Lo 246]

I'm sure Derby could get £26+ million by selling their ground again.