Holt or Sutton?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,269]

Who makes your team as the number 9?

Edited October 12, 2024 by The Great Mass Debater

[Corbs1 183]

Super Mac

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,886]

Sutton. 3rd in the Prem with us . Won the Prem with Blackburn. Golden Boot winner. Titles in Scotland. No contest. 

[wcorkcanary 4,839]

Sutton. BGH was a hero but Sutton was by far the better footballer. 

[Deptford Yellow 303]

Apples and pears ?

[Mr Angry 2,094]

Sutton could have been our greatest ever striker but he was sold before he could get to that point. Thank God for Delia and MWJ who knew what they were doing with Grant.

[Canario 268]

22 you say? Mike Sheron

[Old Shuck 300]

Love Holty but Sutton all day long. The type of all round striker that Sarge could develop into. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 1,043]

9 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

Sutton could have been our greatest ever striker but he was sold before he could get to that point. Thank God for Delia and MWJ who knew what they were doing with Grant.

There is absolutely no difference between Chase selling our best players and Delia selling our best players.

Both did it, we've always been a selling club.

Chase however, when selling Chris Sutton, achieved a then British record transfer fee for a player who, ultimately, got 1 England cap.

Now when we sell a player for more than their perceived market value we give our Sporting Director big props. Its double standards.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,234]

Neither, personally I would have Super Mac, Drinkell and Deehan ahead of both of them..........

[Old Shuck 300]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

There is absolutely no difference between Chase selling our best players and Delia selling our best players.

Both did it, we've always been a selling club.

Chase however, when selling Chris Sutton, achieved a then British record transfer fee for a player who, ultimately, got 1 England cap.

Now when we sell a player for more than their perceived market value we give our Sporting Director big props. Its double standards.

Indeed-plus previous and, in some cases, long, long gone club bosses also sold the likes of then 20 year old Alf Kirchen to Arsenal for £6,000 (a record sale at the time) in 1935, he went on to play for England and won a league title....

...Roy Hollis, Johnny Gavin, Maurice Norman, Ralph Hunt, Terry Bly, Ron Davies (to absolute uproar I might add!), David Cross, Graham Paddon, Ted MacDougall, Phil Boyer, Kevin Reeves, Justin Fashanu, Dave Watson, Steve Bruce, Chris Woods, Mike Phelan, Andy Townsend, Andy Linighan, Dale Gordon, Robert Fleck, Ruel Fox, David Phillips (crazy decision), Chris Sutton, Mark Robins, Efan Ekoku Jon Newsome, Ashley Ward, Andy Johnson...................Borja Sainz?, Josh Sargent?, Kellen Fisher?..............Gabriel Forsyth?....and so on and so on...

Yes, Chase sold players. What rankles there is that it was done at a time when the club was in a position of real strength, squad and football wise...the Smith regime has sold players too, so will the pending one and those to follow.

But so did those in the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's.

It's an easy accusation to make against a regime or ownership that someone may wish to denigrate. But its rather like accusing rain or being wet and cold-yes it is, that is inarguable for the most part. But that's also how it is.

Selling, as many have posted on here, isn't the issue. it's what is done with the proceeds to, ultimately, ensure that the cycle continues.

[shefcanary 3,081]

Everyone always forgets the first though. Davie Ross. 

Davie Ross (8 January 1883 – 2 January 1947) was an English footballer and a member of the Norwich City Hall of Fame.

Ross made 71 appearances for Norwich as an inside-left between 1905 and 1907, scoring 49 times.^[1] (See List of Norwich City F.C. club records)

"There was outcry when City sold [their] star forward... to Manchester City in February 1907 for a Southern League record fee of £650, plus a guaranteed £250 from a friendly - a sign of things to come for a club who have so often sold their star goalscorers".^[1]

[Europe_93 51]

Sutton our best forward, Holt a cult hero who delivered goals and leadership from League One to mid table security in the premier. 

[Ken Hairy 4,336]

Loved Holt obviously, but it's Sutton by a mile 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 1,043]

Chris Sutton went on to form superb partnerships with two legitimately world class strikers in Alan Shearer and Henrik Larsson, won the Premier League with Blackburn, could play as either a 10 or a 9, and later in his career played in centre defence, centre midfield, attacking midfield and striker. Imagine how good you actually have to be at football to manage that. Dion Dublin did the same didn't he by playing as a striker all his career before coming here and playing centre back, remarkable.

Henrik Larsson says that Chris Sutton was the best strike partner he ever had. Alan Shearer would never say the same because he never seems to be able to say anything nice about anybody, but the fact is that in 19 seasons in the top flight, Shearers best season for Premier League goals was 1994-95 when he was he playing alongside Chris Sutton.

I think Sutton is one of the best players we've ever produced from our academy. There stars aligned for Grant Holt and he had that great season in the top flight, but he peaked late and didn't stay there long. Obviously a bonafide Norwich legend, rightfully, but not on the same level as Chris Sutton.

[LaUnionCanary 150]

No votes for Ron Davies? Saw him a few times but memory fading with age.

Edited October 14, 2024 by LaUnionCanary

[Google Bot 3,995]

As most above, loved Holt but Sutton was outstanding back in the day.

However, it does make me wonder how good would Holt have looked back in the early 90s?

[Newtopia 583]

15 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Chris Sutton went on to form superb partnerships with two legitimately world class strikers in Alan Shearer and Henrik Larsson, won the Premier League with Blackburn, could play as either a 10 or a 9, and later in his career played in centre defence, centre midfield, attacking midfield and striker. Imagine how good you actually have to be at football to manage that. Dion Dublin did the same didn't he by playing as a striker all his career before coming here and playing centre back, remarkable.

Henrik Larsson says that Chris Sutton was the best strike partner he ever had. Alan Shearer would never say the same because he never seems to be able to say anything nice about anybody, but the fact is that in 19 seasons in the top flight, Shearers best season for Premier League goals was 1994-95 when he was he playing alongside Chris Sutton.

I think Sutton is one of the best players we've ever produced from our academy. There stars aligned for Grant Holt and he had that great season in the top flight, but he peaked late and didn't stay there long. Obviously a bonafide Norwich legend, rightfully, but not on the same level as Chris Sutton.

Sutton, Bellamy, and Green are (in my view) the best players to come out of our academy.  Loved Eadie, Gordon, Fox, and O’Neill too, but their careers were ultimately successful, but not on the same level.

[Mutley 190]

20 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Chris Sutton went on to form superb partnerships with two legitimately world class strikers in Alan Shearer and Henrik Larsson, won the Premier League with Blackburn, could play as either a 10 or a 9, and later in his career played in centre defence, centre midfield, attacking midfield and striker. Imagine how good you actually have to be at football to manage that. Dion Dublin did the same didn't he by playing as a striker all his career before coming here and playing centre back, remarkable.

Henrik Larsson says that Chris Sutton was the best strike partner he ever had. Alan Shearer would never say the same because he never seems to be able to say anything nice about anybody, but the fact is that in 19 seasons in the top flight, Shearers best season for Premier League goals was 1994-95 when he was he playing alongside Chris Sutton.

I think Sutton is one of the best players we've ever produced from our academy. There stars aligned for Grant Holt and he had that great season in the top flight, but he peaked late and didn't stay there long. Obviously a bonafide Norwich legend, rightfully, but not on the same level as Chris Sutton.

I seem to remember that Sutton played in his early games for us at centre half. I could have got that wrong? Unsure whether or not this was because of necessity due to some injuries or simply how he first made the first team? 

[Ernie Wise 119]

On 13/10/2024 at 11:30, Old Shuck said:

Indeed-plus previous and, in some cases, long, long gone club bosses also sold the likes of then 20 year old Alf Kirchen to Arsenal for £6,000 (a record sale at the time) in 1935, he went on to play for England and won a league title....

...Roy Hollis, Johnny Gavin, Maurice Norman, Ralph Hunt, Terry Bly, Ron Davies (to absolute uproar I might add!), David Cross, Graham Paddon, Ted MacDougall, Phil Boyer, Kevin Reeves, Justin Fashanu, Dave Watson, Steve Bruce, Chris Woods, Mike Phelan, Andy Townsend, Andy Linighan, Dale Gordon, Robert Fleck, Ruel Fox, David Phillips (crazy decision), Chris Sutton, Mark Robins, Efan Ekoku Jon Newsome, Ashley Ward, Andy Johnson...................Borja Sainz?, Josh Sargent?, Kellen Fisher?..............Gabriel Forsyth?....and so on and so on...

Yes, Chase sold players. What rankles there is that it was done at a time when the club was in a position of real strength, squad and football wise...the Smith regime has sold players too, so will the pending one and those to follow.

But so did those in the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's.

It's an easy accusation to make against a regime or ownership that someone may wish to denigrate. But its rather like accusing rain or being wet and cold-yes it is, that is inarguable for the most part. But that's also how it is.

Selling, as many have posted on here, isn't the issue. it's what is done with the proceeds to, ultimately, ensure that the cycle continues.

The players were sold for a big variety of reasons. Some were for financial reasons ( club needed the money), some were forced by players knowing they could get bigger wages elsewhere, and in an extreme case Newsome and Ward sales were forced by the club’s bank (at below market value) to avoid the club being potentially declared bankrupt! 
David Phillips was out of contract, and needed a move for financial reasons, if I remember correctly.

After clearing debt, less than £300,000 was left when Sutton was sold.

[Barham Blitz 908]

10 hours ago, Mutley said:

I seem to remember that Sutton played in his early games for us at centre half. I could have got that wrong? Unsure whether or not this was because of necessity due to some injuries or simply how he first made the first team? 

He did - it was Stringer who first converted him into a striker IIRC.  Mike Walker reckoned that Sutton would end up playing for England as a centre back.  He played a fair bit for Celtic as a #10 and even as a #6 (or #4 depending on your numbering preference) and #8.

He is a curiously underrated player by many (not necessarily by Norwich fans and certainly not by Celtic fans) probably because he spent so long in Scotland after a fairly unsuccessful short stint at Chelsea (where they apparently had no idea what sort of a player they had bought) and because he threw that hissy fit about playing for England B.

There was a lot of competition for an England striking role in the late 90s but I always thought that Sutton would have been an excellent international forward.  A very clever player as well as being more than decent in the air - as evidenced by his versatility - he could have been an excellent foil for the like of Shearer and Owen for a few years.

[Mutley 190]

5 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

He did - it was Stringer who first converted him into a striker IIRC.  Mike Walker reckoned that Sutton would end up playing for England as a centre back.  He played a fair bit for Celtic as a #10 and even as a #6 (or #4 depending on your numbering preference) and #8.

Thank you! My memory is better than I thought! 

In my early days of watching football, (the late 60s early 70s) it was not unusual for a centre half to move to play at centre forward and vice versa in a game when injuries occurred. Those were the days when you only had ONE substitute. I'm too young to remember the time when there were no subs at all.  

[Barham Blitz 908]

43 minutes ago, Mutley said:

Thank you! My memory is better than I thought! 

In my early days of watching football, (the late 60s early 70s) it was not unusual for a centre half to move to play at centre forward and vice versa in a game when injuries occurred. Those were the days when you only had ONE substitute. I'm too young to remember the time when there were no subs at all.  

There were a few - most notably John Charles - who were equally adept at either end of the pitch in the days of 'the big man up top.'

And a fair number more recently - Paul Warhurst famously bounced between centre back, central midfield and striker, getting an international call up after a dozen games as an emergency striker (ah, the Taylor era ...) and we've had a few at Carrow Road beyond Chris Sutton over the years with varying success - Big Dion, Rob Newman and of course the pinnacle of total footballing, positional multi-functionality, our very own Ginger Pele.

Oh, and Steve Walsh (allegedly,) but we don't talk about that brief but dark period of NCFC history ...

[Barham Blitz 908]

Much as we all love Holty, I think the consensus is that there is no real competition in terms of outright ability in a comparison with Sutton.

So I'll throw out a different comparison question.  Sutton or Ashton ?  Not in terms of Canary legend status - given the brevity of his stay and the nature of Ashton's departure - but in terms of just playing ability.

Both proper players [insert comment about if only we'd signed Ashton half a season earlier ...] and both allied no little skill with a real  physical presence.

Possibly just Sutton for me, but it would be very close, and we never really saw how good Ashton could become thanks to SWP's inability to tackle properly.  He was only 23 when that happened.

[Buck Rogers 18]

Does Justin Fashanu get a look in ? 103 appearances, grew up locally and won goal of the season in 1980 ?

[canarydan23 4,823]

On 13/10/2024 at 09:43, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

There is absolutely no difference between Chase selling our best players and Delia selling our best players.

There absolutely is. The sale of Chris Sutton is unrivalled in its stupidity. He was the Premier League's top goalscorer, we were comfortable in a league that was about to board the gravy train and he did not want to leave.

When Delia sold our best assets, we had never just played in Europe, the players also wanted out. Neither was the case for Chris Sutton.

It was a ridiculous decision and who knows what the long term consequences were. Unlikely we'd have been relegated in 95 for a start. It was utter insanity; even Stuart Webber never managed to reach the levels of idiocy that was the decision to sell Chris Sutton.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 1,043]

On 15/10/2024 at 19:18, canarydan23 said:

and he did not want to leave.

Where is your evidence of this please? Show me one quote from anywhere from Chris Sutton where he says he didn't want to leave.

He has practically admitted that he chose Blackburn over Arsenal (who both had offers accepted) because Blackburn were offering more money.

The famous dirty look he gave Robert Chase in that press conference isn't because he didn't want to leave, it was because Chase was sitting there lying saying he would 'test the water' to see what the offers would be for Chris Sutton, when in fact he had already accepted an offer from Blackburn, it was the lie he objected to. 

Before you answer, you should know that I have read Chris Sutton's book. Decent read but a bit too Celtic-centric and aimed at Celtic fans. That was his opportunity to say that he never wanted to leave Norwich, if that was indeed true, but that's not what he says at all.

What he was upset with was Robert Chase lying to the fans.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 1,043]

On 14/10/2024 at 21:36, Mutley said:

I seem to remember that Sutton played in his early games for us at centre half. I could have got that wrong? Unsure whether or not this was because of necessity due to some injuries or simply how he first made the first team? 

Yes you are correct, came through as a centre back. In fact he even played in that 7-1 drubbing by Blackburn in that 92/93 season with Shearer grabbing a hat-trick.

I watched a Sutton interview and he said that after the game Ian Butterworth went in front of the press post-match and stuck up for Chris Sutton saying that he was young and learning and would improve, when actually it was Butterworth who was to blame for most of the goals, he volunteered to do the post-match so he could throw Sutton under the bus 🤣

[JonnyJonnyRowe 1,043]

On 14/10/2024 at 16:37, Newtopia said:

Sutton, Bellamy, and Green are (in my view) the best players to come out of our academy.

Don't forget Dion Dublin!

Released before playing a game for us, but was here from 16-19 on a YTS, during which time he lived with Jason Statham in a flat above a dodgy pub in Great Yarmouth. 

I do think that Jonny Rowe will end up having a really good career comparable to those three. 

And as insufferable as he is, don't forget that Danny Mills won 19 England caps, played at a World Cup, played 9 seasons in the Premier League and lifted a domestic cup. If going by levels of success then I'm afraid we have to include him.

[chicken 3,138]

On 13/10/2024 at 09:43, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

There is absolutely no difference between Chase selling our best players and Delia selling our best players.

Both did it, we've always been a selling club.

Chase however, when selling Chris Sutton, achieved a then British record transfer fee for a player who, ultimately, got 1 England cap.

Now when we sell a player for more than their perceived market value we give our Sporting Director big props. Its double standards.

So the success of players is based purely on international appearances?

There's also more behind Sutton's lack of caps, and he's not the only one. But I suppose there's more than one way to tell a story depending upon the slant/spin you want to give.

This one is pretty bad though, and omits plenty.