Apologising To David Wagner

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

12 minutes ago, splutcho said:

I was part of the booing on Tuesday. Frustration got the better of me and I perceived we were parking the bus/trying to hang on. I did feel really stupid afterwards and then couldn't really argue with what DW said after the game either. 

 

Tried to go to the game today with a positive mindset and to get behind them and to be fair, I think a majority seemed to do the same. Crowd was excellent. So to be honest he probably does deserve an apology and I think the atmosphere today was a direct result of his comments. Fantastic performance on the pitch helped too.

Haha, this is pretty much exactly me. Having been at QPR last Saturday, the Watford subs just seemed like we were about to fall down the same cracks, and the frustration got to me too. Also felt like a bit of a prat listening to Wagner's post-match comments.

We don't 'owe him an apology' per se, but I do think we owed him the benefit of the doubt today, and as you said, that totally showed in the way we got behind them, even after we went behind.

That said, today was as close to a complete 90-minute domination as we've delivered this season, and when the performance is that good, the crowd is always going to be bouncing.

EDIT: Hang on, is that Youssouf Mulumbu in your avatar? If so, why?

Edited February 17 by Feedthewolf

[splutcho 174]

1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

Haha, this is pretty much exactly me. Having been at QPR last Saturday, the Watford subs just seemed like we were about to fall down the same cracks, and the frustration got to me too. Also felt like a bit of a prat listening to Wagner's post-match comments.

We don't 'owe him an apology' per se, but I do think we owed him the benefit of the doubt today, and as you said, that totally showed in the way we got behind them, even after we went behind.

That said, today was as close to a complete 90-minute domination as we've delivered this season, and when the performance is that good, the crowd is always going to be bouncing.

EDIT: Hang on, is that Youssouf Mulumbu in your avatar? If so, why?

I just think him looking properly miserable in the photoshoot for the ugly third kit that season was and will always be hilarious.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

3 minutes ago, splutcho said:

I just think him looking properly miserable in the photoshoot for the ugly third kit that season was and will always be hilarious.

I'd never noticed it before!

"Me? Model that piece of sh*t? Are you joking? What do you mean it's part of my contractual obligations?"

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,377]

11 minutes ago, splutcho said:

I just think him looking properly miserable in the photoshoot for the ugly third kit that season was and will always be hilarious.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!! 

I still love that kit 🤣🤣 don't actually know why 

[splutcho 174]

Just now, GodlyOtsemobor said:

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!! 

I still love that kit 🤣🤣 don't actually know why 

Oh I sort of love it too, in a so bad it's good kind of way.

[Indy 3,315]

So can we answer the question! Is it that Wagner is actually a good coach, him & his team

have got the most out of Sarah, Sargent, Rowe, and the rest of a very ordinary squad? Or is it that Those old aging signings made by Webber are better than we thought?

I’ve been saying for months I like Wagner and he’s getting the best out of a poor set of signings and development of some quality younger players! It’s now showing that he’s a decent coach punching above the position he should be with this squad IMO

[Corbs1 90]

Oh ah Deal e ah ! 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,037]

No apologies needed, we went a goal down to a very poor Cardiff side and no boos or anti Wagner chanting, a lot of vocal support from the Snake Pit throughout the game.

What I personally hoped would happen happened, David Wagner toned down his comments, the Norwich supporters responded and we won again.............

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

19 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

Yep they are wrong,  if only it was all that simple. It's like all you judging now how others feel,  you have made up your minds about why probably a third of the ground booed. I had my 60 seconds of fame, and read what people said on social media about my reasons for doing something. They judge a person they didn't know, my reasons , my job, whether I was drunk, made up total lies. Don't 2nd guess why people do things.

I booed , the reason being the QPR substitution,  I only listened to it ,but we went from losing to getting in front , instead of continuing we went negative and conceded. I went to Coventry away , we took off every attacking player we had while winning and had no out ball and were lucky to get a point. Plus throwing away 2 goal leads doesn't help. I wa wrong to boo , big deal , I spend most of the game singing on my own. There's no harm in wanting to win every game and being disappointed to lose. Anyway I am sure I will be singing on my own again today. 

If you're talking about simplicity, obsessing about the manager like it's the only element in the success or failure of a club strikes me as pretty simple-minded.

Wagner's no different to how he was half a few season ago as far as the squad view of him is concerned, and I doubt what he's doing his changed. The fact is he was never as bad as some make out, and if we went on to win every game to the end of the season 5-0… he won't be as good as some would make out in that event. The manager is just one cog in the machine.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

10 hours ago, Indy said:

So can we answer the question! Is it that Wagner is actually a good coach, him & his team

have got the most out of Sarah, Sargent, Rowe, and the rest of a very ordinary squad? Or is it that Those old aging signings made by Webber are better than we thought?

I’ve been saying for months I like Wagner and he’s getting the best out of a poor set of signings and development of some quality younger players! It’s now showing that he’s a decent coach punching above the position he should be with this squad IMO

I still think it’s taken him longer than it should have done to work out the best 11 and still not entirely sure he has. I still also think he should have been able to adapt better during the injuries to ensure we did not have that sort of run.

But he’s a good bloke and he’s going nowhere for the rest of the season so we should back him and the players. I won’t be singing his name (yet or maybe at all) but I did go to the game yesterday determined to be more positive and I enjoyed it (helped of course by how we played) a lot more. 

[The Real Buh 3,480]

So are we going to just gloss over the fact that Sargent was never actually “injured” or “a doubt” for the game yesterday and that Wagner just subbed him the other night because he just had “one of his little moments”?

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

11 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

So are we going to just gloss over the fact that Sargent was never actually “injured” or “a doubt” for the game yesterday and that Wagner just subbed him the other night because he just had “one of his little moments”?

How's the hangover?

In all seriousness, I think it's very clear how important Sarge is to this team. Given he's already missed four long months with injury already, keeping him fit is absolutely vital to our success for the remainder of the season. If Wagner left him on for the full 90 when we were 4-1 up and then he pulled up injured, people would be screaming blue murder.

Edited February 18 by Feedthewolf

[Sufyellow 223]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If you're talking about simplicity, obsessing about the manager like it's the only element in the success or failure of a club strikes me as pretty simple-minded.

Wagner's no different to how he was half a few season ago as far as the squad view of him is concerned, and I doubt what he's doing his changed. The fact is he was never as bad as some make out, and if we went on to win every game to the end of the season 5-0… he won't be as good as some would make out in that event. The manager is just one cog in the machine.

We are talking about nearly half the ground booing a substitution, don't make it complicated. All I have seen is people thinking they know, what others were feeling and why they booed, its rubbish. I booed, I would love to see Wagner succeed, he comes across as a good bloke. I don't think his set up and tactics would stand a chance in the prem even with a couple of extra upgrade signings , unfortunately for him we still remember being humiliated the last time. As fans our ambition is to get to the prem and compete,  that's very different to we feel entitled to be there. Several pluses from booing Tuesday,  we won, probably because it fired the players up to prove us wrong,  secondly it woke up the south stand yesterday to vocally get behind the team, I believe even the river end joined in. Maybe Tuesday was a turning point for the fans, manager and players. Let's hope the ones above in the boardroom can sort out the rest. 

[The Bunny 314]

5 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

We are talking about nearly half the ground booing a substitution, don't make it complicated. All I have seen is people thinking they know, what others were feeling and why they booed, its rubbish. I booed, I would love to see Wagner succeed, he comes across as a good bloke. I don't think his set up and tactics would stand a chance in the prem even with a couple of extra upgrade signings , unfortunately for him we still remember being humiliated the last time. As fans our ambition is to get to the prem and compete,  that's very different to we feel entitled to be there. Several pluses from booing Tuesday,  we won, probably because it fired the players up to prove us wrong,  secondly it woke up the south stand yesterday to vocally get behind the team, I believe even the river end joined in. Maybe Tuesday was a turning point for the fans, manager and players. Let's hope the ones above in the boardroom can sort out the rest. 

FWIW, Farke’s record in the Prem was absolutely hopeless and Smith’s was only slightly better so the bar is not particularly high if we’re to do better than the last couple of attempts. Wagner does at least have experience of keeping a promoted team up, but investment in the squad (and maybe not selling our best player on promotion) would be key. Attanasio’s involvement and the new SD make me more optimistic about the recruitment side of things.

But that’s a problem for another day. Promotion is far from certain at this point.

[Mason 47 1,395]

Wagner deserves a lot of credit for how we are currently playing.

Wagner also deserved questioning over not changing things up during the bad run, when we were missing 3-4 players vital to make the system work. There is something to be said for sticking with a system, however, now we can see clearly that without Sargent and (less so) Barnes + Sainz it was a busted flush.

Yesterday did feel like a turning point. Wagners criticism of the fans has seemingly got the majority pulling in the right direction again- avoid key injuries and the last 13 games could be wild.

 

[Sufyellow 223]

4 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

FWIW, Farke’s record in the Prem was absolutely hopeless and Smith’s was only slightly better so the bar is not particularly high if we’re to do better than the last couple of attempts. Wagner does at least have experience of keeping a promoted team up, but investment in the squad (and maybe not selling our best player on promotion) would be key. Attanasio’s involvement and the new SD make me more optimistic about the recruitment side of things.

But that’s a problem for another day. Promotion is far from certain at this point.

Smiths should of been better,  the players had settled in after ten games, remember no experience of even our country let alone the prem. That's my point , the way we play still will not compete in the prem with average players , that's all we can afford. Is that why fans got excited about a totally untested young coach who may have new ideas? 

[The Bunny 314]

1 minute ago, Sufyellow said:

Smiths should of been better,  the players had settled in after ten games, remember no experience of even our country let alone the prem. That's my point , the way we play still will not compete in the prem with average players , that's all we can afford. Is that why fans got excited about a totally untested young coach who may have new ideas? 

Sure, but Smith didn’t have the benefit of Buendia for his stint, so it’s not really a fair comparison. Webber’s player trading that summer transfer window absolutely killed any chance of either manager keeping us up.

For his faults, Wagner does seem to have the ability to play in a more pragmatic way at times, something which could help if we were to be promoted. If it was to happen and we had financial backing from Attanasio and some smart analytics based recruitment from Knapper, there’s a chance we could actually make a fist of it this time. Look at Luton. Nobody gave them a chance at the start if the season, but smart recruitment and adaptability has given them decent shout of staying up.

 

[Sufyellow 223]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Sure, but Smith didn’t have the benefit of Buendia for his stint, so it’s not really a fair comparison. Webber’s player trading that summer transfer window absolutely killed any chance of either manager keeping us up.

For his faults, Wagner does seem to have the ability to play in a more pragmatic way at times, something which could help if we were to be promoted. If it was to happen and we had financial backing from Attanasio and some smart analytics based recruitment from Knapper, there’s a chance we could actually make a fist of it this time. Look at Luton. Nobody gave them a chance at the start if the season, but smart recruitment and adaptability has given them decent shout of staying up.

 

He had Nunez and Sara , who cost more than emi, he also didn't have to sell players and raise 20 million in running costs to get us back up. We gambled with him and he failed.  

[Daz Sparks 1,182]

4 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

So are we going to just gloss over the fact that Sargent was never actually “injured” or “a doubt” for the game yesterday and that Wagner just subbed him the other night because he just had “one of his little moments”?

Yes. 

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

Sarge said in the post-match interview how his ankle pain comes and goes, so he was unable to play on in midweek.

All the players' post-match interviews showed how much happier they were with fan backing rather than boo-ing. 

[The Bunny 314]

17 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

He had Nunez and Sara , who cost more than emi, he also didn't have to sell players and raise 20 million in running costs to get us back up. We gambled with him and he failed.  

Assuming we're still talking about Smith, he did not have Nunez and Sara in that Premier League season; we signed them both the following summer. But to be clear, I'm not suggesting Smith was a good manager. My point is that neither Farke nor Smith could keep us up in the Premier League after that disaster of a transfer window in 2021. 

That said, I do find it funny how fans forget that Farke was literally the worst premier league manager in our history (excluding those with only a handful of games). He achieved a grand total of 6 wins over 49 games at that level. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing at this level, but in the PL, his record was atrocious. 

A while ago I crunched the numbers for every PL manager we've had into a spreadsheet. This is the ranking:

	P	W	D	L	Win %	Lose %	Pts	Pts/G
Mike Walker	65	31	16	18	47.7%	27.7%	109	1.68
Paul Lambert	38	12	11	15	31.6%	39.5%	47	1.24
Chris Hughton	71	18	22	31	25.4%	43.7%	76	1.07
Alex Neil	38	9	7	22	23.7%	57.9%	34	0.89
Nigel Worthington	38	7	12	19	18.4%	50.0%	33	0.87
John Deehan	56	7	16	33	12.5%	58.9%	37	0.66
Dean Smith	27	4	5	18	14.8%	66.7%	17	0.63
Daniel Farke	49	6	8	35	12.2%	71.4%	26	0.53
Neil Adams	5	0	1	4	0.0%	80.0%	1	0.20
Gary Megson	5	0	0	5	0.0%	100.0%	0	0.00

[The Bunny 314]

5 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

So are we going to just gloss over the fact that Sargent was never actually “injured” or “a doubt” for the game yesterday and that Wagner just subbed him the other night because he just had “one of his little moments”?

I imagine most rational fans probably will, yeah, given the fact we scored 8 in our last 2 games, are unbeaten at home in 10, and have won 6 of our last 8 games.

But hey, you carry on...

[Monty13 2,247]

16 hours ago, Indy said:

So can we answer the question! Is it that Wagner is actually a good coach, him & his team

have got the most out of Sarah, Sargent, Rowe, and the rest of a very ordinary squad? Or is it that Those old aging signings made by Webber are better than we thought?

I’ve been saying for months I like Wagner and he’s getting the best out of a poor set of signings and development of some quality younger players! It’s now showing that he’s a decent coach punching above the position he should be with this squad IMO

I think personally what I’ve learnt across the season is we have a talented but fragile squad and an equally fragile system. In that both are very dependent on Sargent. When he’s playing the rest of the team look elevated and the system looks spot on. However without him it’s like a key component is missing.

The summer in standard Webber form was a mixed bag IMO. Stacy is a really good signing. Duffy was and is good competition for Hanley. Sainz looks a real special player, raw material there is very reminiscent of Emi (in terms of attitude and potential, they are different types of players).

Fisher seems a good cheap punt on potential and low risk as backup given how uber fit Stacy seems. Barnes is good when he plays with Sargent, I think that’s how you have to judge his signing. Fassnacht is difficult, I really like him, flashes of top quality but otherwise can be quiet but pops up with goal contributions still which is surely the important thing much like Rowe (but less effective) who also drifts in and out of games.

Long is what he is, a backup keeper who’s probably 1st choice in a league 1 team. Think that’s the reality of our current position. You’d need a replacement if we get promoted and definitely a new no1 if Gunn leaves but I think people are quite harsh on him, he’s nowhere near as good as Gunn or Krul, but that’s kind of the point.

Batth was a pointless signing, as was Forshaw, absolute waste of finances.

I think how we end up viewing last summer ultimately depends on the rest of the season.

This team is more than good enough to be top 6 IMO. It’s all subjective but I genuinely think when fully fit we have arguably the 4th best 1st team in the league. Everyone outside the top 3 doesn’t look like they have noticeably more quality than us and that’s why it’s so tight.

I think the issue is we don’t have a good enough ball playing CB, Kenny has been a revelation there and Wagner deserves credit for that move, but it also highlights the lack of that player especially given we signed two CBs.

The other issue is we have 2 CM slots and need the talents of three players (with Kenny at the back) to make this system work really IMO because no one player can provide the screening, ball running (of McClean) and passing range (of Nunez) that we need alongside Sara to be fully effective.

I think if Sargent stays fit we should finish in the playoffs, no doubt about that in my mind. I like Wagner too and I’m glad to see him turning it around, but I don’t think he’s punching above his weight. I think his system is too reliant on Sargent (not necessarily his fault) and it took him a while to figure out how to make things work in that key central area for the way he wants to play with the players we have.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

3 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Wagner deserves a lot of credit for how we are currently playing.

Wagner also deserved questioning over not changing things up during the bad run, when we were missing 3-4 players vital to make the system work. There is something to be said for sticking with a system, however, now we can see clearly that without Sargent and (less so) Barnes + Sainz it was a busted flush.

Yesterday did feel like a turning point. Wagners criticism of the fans has seemingly got the majority pulling in the right direction again- avoid key injuries and the last 13 games could be wild.

 

Exactly how i feel about Wagner 

the team are playing very well and at the right time he deserves full credit ,

still unsure if he tis he right man for Next season which is Crazy the form we are in 

 

[The Real Buh 3,480]

4 hours ago, The Bunny said:

I imagine most rational fans probably will, yeah, given the fact we scored 8 in our last 2 games, are unbeaten at home in 10, and have won 6 of our last 8 games.

But hey, you carry on...

Back to the substitute tombola next week it is then. Roll up, roll up, who’ll be next to be randomly subbed 

[daniel_grieff 16]

4 hours ago, The Bunny said:

That said, I do find it funny how fans forget that Farke was literally the worst premier league manager in our history (excluding those with only a handful of games). He achieved a grand total of 6 wins over 49 games at that level. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing at this level, but in the PL, his record was atrocious.

I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for another man's failure, but I don't see any managerial comparison as relevant, when talking about PL record. The PL has been getting progressively further apart from the Championship since it began, and that trend has only accelerated in recent years.
Managers like Lambert, Hughton and (albeit for a different club) Wagner might not be capable of setting up teams that can avoid relegation in today's PL. The spending power of even a middling PL club is frightening and even if you reach into your pockets, the recruitment needs to be spot on. I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't last year's promoted teams that end up getting relegated this year.
I'm only posting this to say that while looking at the PL stats makes it look like Farke was our "worst PL manager", I don't see what any human alive could have done differently with those 2 PL squads he had. We'll never know, but I wonder what those other names from the list would have done about Billy Gilmour, Milot Rashica, Duda, etc.

[BroadstairsR 2,202]

5 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I think personally what I’ve learnt across the season is we have a talented but fragile squad and an equally fragile system. In that both are very dependent on Sargent. When he’s playing the rest of the team look elevated and the system looks spot on. However without him it’s like a key component is missing.

The summer in standard Webber form was a mixed bag IMO. Stacy is a really good signing. Duffy was and is good competition for Hanley. Sainz looks a real special player, raw material there is very reminiscent of Emi (in terms of attitude and potential, they are different types of players).

Fisher seems a good cheap punt on potential and low risk as backup given how uber fit Stacy seems. Barnes is good when he plays with Sargent, I think that’s how you have to judge his signing. Fassnacht is difficult, I really like him, flashes of top quality but otherwise can be quiet but pops up with goal contributions still which is surely the important thing much like Rowe (but less effective) who also drifts in and out of games.

Long is what he is, a backup keeper who’s probably 1st choice in a league 1 team. Think that’s the reality of our current position. You’d need a replacement if we get promoted and definitely a new no1 if Gunn leaves but I think people are quite harsh on him, he’s nowhere near as good as Gunn or Krul, but that’s kind of the point.

Batth was a pointless signing, as was Forshaw, absolute waste of finances.

I think how we end up viewing last summer ultimately depends on the rest of the season.

This team is more than good enough to be top 6 IMO. It’s all subjective but I genuinely think when fully fit we have arguably the 4th best 1st team in the league. Everyone outside the top 3 doesn’t look like they have noticeably more quality than us and that’s why it’s so tight.

I think the issue is we don’t have a good enough ball playing CB, Kenny has been a revelation there and Wagner deserves credit for that move, but it also highlights the lack of that player especially given we signed two CBs.

The other issue is we have 2 CM slots and need the talents of three players (with Kenny at the back) to make this system work really IMO because no one player can provide the screening, ball running (of McClean) and passing range (of Nunez) that we need alongside Sara to be fully effective.

I think if Sargent stays fit we should finish in the playoffs, no doubt about that in my mind. I like Wagner too and I’m glad to see him turning it around, but I don’t think he’s punching above his weight. I think his system is too reliant on Sargent (not necessarily his fault) and it took him a while to figure out how to make things work in that key central area for the way he wants to play with the players we have.

Excellent.

[S_81 840]

The jury is still firmly out on whether Wagner can get us in the play offs, yet alone promoted. 
I feel like he’s just a mad substitution away from throwing away more needless points. 
But he’s certainly turned it around and found consistency from when I was yelling multiple times weekly for him to be sacked. Credit to him for that. And the run in is looking quite kind. I can’t dare to dream just yet. But I’ve stopped yelling for him to be sacked. 

[Sufyellow 223]

8 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Assuming we're still talking about Smith, he did not have Nunez and Sara in that Premier League season; we signed them both the following summer. But to be clear, I'm not suggesting Smith was a good manager. My point is that neither Farke nor Smith could keep us up in the Premier League after that disaster of a transfer window in 2021. 

That said, I do find it funny how fans forget that Farke was literally the worst premier league manager in our history (excluding those with only a handful of games). He achieved a grand total of 6 wins over 49 games at that level. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing at this level, but in the PL, his record was atrocious. 

A while ago I crunched the numbers for every PL manager we've had into a spreadsheet. This is the ranking:

	P	W	D	L	Win %	Lose %	Pts	Pts/G
Mike Walker	65	31	16	18	47.7%	27.7%	109	1.68
Paul Lambert	38	12	11	15	31.6%	39.5%	47	1.24
Chris Hughton	71	18	22	31	25.4%	43.7%	76	1.07
Alex Neil	38	9	7	22	23.7%	57.9%	34	0.89
Nigel Worthington	38	7	12	19	18.4%	50.0%	33	0.87
John Deehan	56	7	16	33	12.5%	58.9%	37	0.66
Dean Smith	27	4	5	18	14.8%	66.7%	17	0.63
Daniel Farke	49	6	8	35	12.2%	71.4%	26	0.53
Neil Adams	5	0	1	4	0.0%	80.0%	1	0.20
Gary Megson	5	0	0	5	0.0%	100.0%	0	0.00

I find it funny people forget he had the worst budget probably in premier league history the first time round,  in a season that stopped because of covid and started up with every game behind closed doors. He also got us too the FA cup quarter final. The 2nd time he had a covid hit preseason,  the hardest start possible and most of his main signings weren't good enough for the championship let alone the prem, after losing his two best players during the summer.  

[The Bunny 314]

6 hours ago, daniel_grieff said:

I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for another man's failure, but I don't see any managerial comparison as relevant, when talking about PL record. The PL has been getting progressively further apart from the Championship since it began, and that trend has only accelerated in recent years.
Managers like Lambert, Hughton and (albeit for a different club) Wagner might not be capable of setting up teams that can avoid relegation in today's PL. The spending power of even a middling PL club is frightening and even if you reach into your pockets, the recruitment needs to be spot on. I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't last year's promoted teams that end up getting relegated this year.
I'm only posting this to say that while looking at the PL stats makes it look like Farke was our "worst PL manager", I don't see what any human alive could have done differently with those 2 PL squads he had. We'll never know, but I wonder what those other names from the list would have done about Billy Gilmour, Milot Rashica, Duda, etc.

Ok, let's compare to other teams going up on similar budgets in the same time period. Brentford went up at the same time as us via the playoffs, had a lower wage bill at the time, and has stayed up twice since*. Even Luton (who also didn't manage automatic promotion) are currently sitting outside the relegation zone with a similar point tally to what we managed to achieve all season under Daniel Farke and Dean Smith. However you slice it, Dean Smith and Daniel Farke were total failures at PL level. 

*Although to be fair, their sporting director didn't suddenly decide to flog Ivan Toney to the highest bidder when they got promoted. 

I agree though that things have got harder for promoted clubs in recent years, making direct comparisons difficult. Probably Dean Smith vs Daniel Farke is as fair a comparison as you can get; if anything, Farke had the better squad for his first PL season (Buendia, peak Pukki, Cantwell etc). 

BTW, regarding Billy Gilmour, he was doing ok at Brighton last I saw. Rashica and Tzolis also haven't been doing too badly, albeit at lower levels than the Premier League. Maybe that speaks to the manager too...

Edited February 19 by The Bunny