Is Wagner tactically inept?

[hogesar 9,676]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

If a poor manager gets underperforming teams and a good one over performing- I guess that is the question. Which are we doing? Big names and old legs but where should we be 

Do you think this squad should be significantly better than 2 points from the play-offs? I don't think we're either massively under-performing or over-performing with Wagner.

If everyone could employ a manager that over-performs then everyone would do it, wouldn't they? From Knapper's point of view I imagine Wagner is safe for the season and he'll make his decision close season.

Wagner makes decisions that I personally don't love (sacrificing a midfielder for Barnes / Idah duo) but there's no guarantee we'd be good enough to control the game with the extra player anyway.

He's been part of Rowe having a breakout season and he's been given pretty free license to get into goal-scoring positions. Sainz looks like another who he's been patient with and tried to get him to a point where he isn't such a defensive liability (yesterday showed he's not quite there perhaps on multiple aspects) - and Idah is playing the best football he's played for Norwich.

So, it's not all bad.

 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

This is where the argument falls down because it's pointless having sensible debate at this point.

In my opinion we have definitely lost games because of him but we've also won games because of him.

We are talking professional football in the second highest tier of English football. Teams certainly don't go on the recent run we've just gone on "in spite" of a manager.

i do not want Wagner here but his recent form is very good 

yesterday i have marked as not Wagner's fault at all , in fact with 11 players i imagine he would have got at least a  point ,

like i have said before it is a trust thing with me

 i do not trust him to pick right team , right tactics and right subs in fact anything can happen with Wagner ,

i also do not trust him with transfers did he choose any of the players in summer ? was it Webber / Wagner or just webber ,

soon as Webber left Wagner was get the age of squad down but was he involved in getting the age up ? 

i do not know if Wagner had any say in Transfers but he would have a say in Fitness and we do not look as fit as he said he would make us last season ,

so so many things rolled into one make me so unsure about Wagner 

Results are good at the moment though so he deserves to stay will we hit another bad patch ? again with wagner you never know 

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

He's far from inept, but is nothing special, and I can never envisage a successful future for the club with him at the helm.

There was a time not so long ago when I was desperate for him to be on his bike, but recent results have talked. We might even reach the play-offs, which would be fun and financially enhancing, but looking at the likely opposition we wouldn't, as things stand at the moment, have a hope in hades of winning them (we do have a jinx on the binners though.)

I'm anticipating that the quiet man now I/C has worked out Wagner's limitations and that he has some ace up his sleeve, at the most for next season, at the least for the New Year.

The fact that we can apparently add to the squad in the next window in some way or another gives a glimmer of hope as well.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Nope. Wagner is inept when we win as well. We win despite him, not because of him. 

You need therapy.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,276]

Inept is too strong, but his decisions from the bench baffle so many all of the time. I don’t think he’s good enough.. and this ‘good’ run won’t change that opinion.

We’re also about to, in all likelihood, embark on another poor run. No more than 4 points by Feb 1st.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[hogesar 9,676]

5 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Inept is too strong, but his decisions from the bench baffle so many all of the time. I don’t think he’s good enough.. and this ‘good’ run won’t change that opinion.

We’re also about to, in all likelihood, embark on another poor run. No more than 4 points by Feb 1st.

Going by your prediction of 10 points between October and Jan, sounds like we can all expect auto-promotion now then.... 😉

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,276]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Going by your prediction of 10 points between October and Jan, sounds like we can all expect auto-promotion now then.... 😉

You were worried though, at one point 😏

[ged in the onion bag 855]

40 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Fair comment re Gibbs, however I guess bringing Hanley and Batth on enabled McLean, Sara and Nunez to hold midfield. Gibbs would have come on had we still been level deep into the game.

The changes quickly fell apart because we failed to stop the crosses coming in.

WBA width was a massive issue even with XI on the pitch which we didn't get to grips with.

 

So keeping the wide player on to help prevent crosses may have helped I imagine.   

[hogesar 9,676]

11 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

You were worried though, at one point 😏

There might have been a couple of "hairy" weeks...but you'll never see me admitting it! 😄 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

My problem with the manager and club right now is that we’re going to finish somewhere in the middle, which seems reasonable with this squad but we won’t have developed (or attempted to) a potential future CDM in Gibbs and CB in Warner.    
 

On the face of it Wagner is probably achieving a reasonable league position right now but… unquestionably this recent run of results is due to a fortunate set of fixtures against bottom teams or teams out of form and we weren’t convincing either.   The next games will likely expose this team again.   We might be near the playoffs but there are 7 other teams within a win of them also.    

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

32 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

My problem with the manager and club right now is that we’re going to finish somewhere in the middle, which seems reasonable with this squad but we won’t have developed (or attempted to) a potential future CDM in Gibbs and CB in Warner.    
 

On the face of it Wagner is probably achieving a reasonable league position right now but… unquestionably this recent run of results is due to a fortunate set of fixtures against bottom teams or teams out of form and we weren’t convincing either.   The next games will likely expose this team again.   We might be near the playoffs but there are 7 other teams within a win of them also.    

 

 

You've answered a different question.

[Gordon Bennett 784]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

He's far from inept, but is nothing special, and I can never envisage a successful future for the club with him at the helm.

I think this sums it up quite well, he's average. Some of the criticism he gets is fair, some is daft and he should get praise which he (of course) doesn't. The horrible injury list this season shouldn't be forgotten either. 

I think we can do better, but whether we will or can afford to is another matter.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

36 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You've answered a different question.

Still none the wiser whether he’s tactically aware or inept, seems he’s got some qualities and deficient in others and overall not good enough but he’s achieving what I’d expect with this squad… I.e mid-table.

Suspect we will all know the quality of the manager and this team in a few weeks when we play some decent teams.    That’s why I’d rather we got Gibbs and Warner in the team to give them a chance to develop so we might have something better next season.    What’s the point of Batth, Duffy, Hanley and Gibson in the long-term right now?

[Hardhouse44 261]

18 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes. He is tactically one of the worst coaches I’ve ever seen in our dugout. 
 

The biggest issue is his obsession with a starting formation that surrenders the midfield. We get away with it against sh*t teams, particularly at home but away and/or against the better sides it’s utter madness and I cannot tell you how frustrating I find it to watch. He just does not seem to see the issue. It’s soul destroying. 25% possession today when it was 11 v 11. You will lose 90% of games having to withstand that sort of pressure. 

Totally correct.

We are overrun in midfield by all but the crappiest of teams. The obsession with starting 2 strikers who have about as much dynamism and ability as a pair of dead whelks is just baffling to watch week in week out. 
 

Barnes is a total waste of a place in the team in my view. To old, to slow, to lacking in ability. Idah needs a rocket so far up his ãřse it’s unbelievable. His starting performances are always sluggish, laboured and reserved. It like he’s holding something back. Compared to his substitute performances where you look at him and think there might just be a half decent player in there. He needs a brief to go out from the start and run himself ragged for 60mins. After that he has done his shift and can be changed.

But we cant play 2 up front. It’s just to open and we are cut through. 
 

 

[FCC 76]

I think he aspires to inept. Knapper needs to ease him out quickly or risk losing credibility and looking like the job has come to early for him. 

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

1 hour ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Totally correct.

We are overrun in midfield by all but the crappiest of teams. The obsession with starting 2 strikers who have about as much dynamism and ability as a pair of dead whelks is just baffling to watch week in week out. 
 

Barnes is a total waste of a place in the team in my view. To old, to slow, to lacking in ability. Idah needs a rocket so far up his ãřse it’s unbelievable. His starting performances are always sluggish, laboured and reserved. It like he’s holding something back. Compared to his substitute performances where you look at him and think there might just be a half decent player in there. He needs a brief to go out from the start and run himself ragged for 60mins. After that he has done his shift and can be changed.

But we cant play 2 up front. It’s just to open and we are cut through. 
 

 

I'm not sure we are actually playing 2 up front especially away when Barnes seems to drop deeper and does neither one thing or the other. Yesterday I couldn't see why the hell he was even on the pitch, but Wagner always picks him regardless of his performances. When he does drop back to help the midfield he is a total liability as shown against Ipswich where we were defending pretty well until Barnes decided to help out.

It's a bit unfair on hammering Idah who has done pretty well in leading the line; far better than Barnes and Rowe is too weak when brought in centrally. Hwang was only just getting up to speed before he was injured and one would assume he was supposed to be our main striker not Idah. Hopefully things will improve when Sargent returns when I hope we play Hwang off Sargent and have Barnes and Idah on the bench.

[Sussexyellow 55]

The fact that this debate swings both ways, albeit tending towards the inept, suggest at best he is bang average, which is not what is required to take the club forward.

To me his teams look to be less than the sum of the parts. We are not in a position to buy success, so a manager who can make the team more than the sum of the parts is an essential. So despite recent better results, with the anniversary of his contract now imminent I hope the club will act decisively and make a change.

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

This is hardly a glowing indictment of him regardless if you believe he is tactically inept or not. Nobody has said he is the right man to take us forward; at best he's Mr Average and should be replaced at the end of the season. I just hope Knapper has a plan as I fear the same people who want him gone at the end of the season will revert to 'well let's give him 10 games next season', especially if we finish close to the play-offs.

 

[Jim Smith 2,319]

6 hours ago, hogesar said:

This is where the argument falls down because it's pointless having sensible debate at this point.

In my opinion we have definitely lost games because of him but we've also won games because of him.

We are talking professional football in the second highest tier of English football. Teams certainly don't go on the recent run we've just gone on "in spite" of a manager.

We would beat most of those teams whilst being managed by anyone. The fact we have managed to beat them playing the wrong formation is just down to the fact we have better players and that formation is just about ok to see us past teams who let us have the ball.  As soon as we play a team with a decent midfield and/or coach we don’t win because Wagners approach is fundamentally flawed and utterly predictable. This will continue because he either doesn’t see it or has no inclination to change it. Our recent run is no evidence at all that Wagner is the right man for our job, that is if your requirements for the job involve success of any sort rather than just treading water. 

[Yobocop 1,099]

22 hours ago, Keith Scott said:

He's the most tactically inept manager I've ever seen. And I've witnessed Brian Hamilton and Peter Grant in the managerial hot seat.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

 

You must’ve been in a coma or on some hard drugs during their time as NCFC managers if you really think that. Neither would surprise me

Yours in Sport, 

Yobocop 

[Mason 47 1,379]

8 hours ago, hogesar said:

Do you think this squad should be significantly better than 2 points from the play-offs? I don't think we're either massively under-performing or over-performing with Wagner.

Interesting point this, because I don't think our squad is particularly excellent, but I just can't shake the feeling that we have the parts for quite a good side. They're just being assembled in a manner that is net-negative.

It's like looking at something built by AI, all the parts are there but there's something just 'off' about the composition. I want Wagner to succeed, but I also feel like he's knocking on a door that won't open.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

This is hardly a glowing indictment of him regardless if you believe he is tactically inept or not. Nobody has said he is the right man to take us forward; at best he's Mr Average and should be replaced at the end of the season. I just hope Knapper has a plan as I fear the same people who want him gone at the end of the season will revert to 'well let's give him 10 games next season', especially if we finish close to the play-offs.

 

I fear the same people who regularly want a change of manager will regularly want a change of whatever manager. 

[Big O 225]

Don’t think he is inept, I just don’t think he plays a style of football that Norwich fans will accept for a sustained period.

It’s difficult to say he is getting the best out of what he has or not but I don’t seriously expect this team to mount a challenge for 6th. So the key question for me (and more importantly Knapper) is whether he will be the coach we need to see through the transition, playing front foot attacking football, bringing through and trusting young players etc.

Next year, we will be just be another championship club with a massive cash deficit to the 3 teams that come down and any that might stay down. This will require a rebuild of significant proportions, trimming the wage bill, releasing out of contract players  and working out how to be competitive. I just don’t see DW doing that role so for me surely you pull the plug when you feel it is right to start that process. He will rightly be given the chance to throw the Hail Mary and see if he can get this team Into the playoffs but when that moves to a no chance position then we will make the change. Of course hope he does get us up but just being a realist rather than an optimist for once. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Big O

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

Another point here is the extent to which tactics are driven by data. Does the data say we have to play in a certain way and formation? Our formation and style seems set in stone now regardless of the opposition. Albeit forced by a red card, it was almost refreshing to see Wagner try something a bit different against WBA.

The point I'm trying to make is that if Knapper says the data says we play like this and Player A needs to be positioned here and Player B there, the role of the Head Coach becomes one of 'execution' rather than a tactical genius.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,725]

Yes. Wait am I allowed to answer myself?

[canarydan23 4,060]

Tactically inept?

That's being kind.

[Monty13 2,235]

“Ladies and Gentlemen, Norwich will be playing 4..4..****ing..2”

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Kenny should be playing centre back, we desperately need a CDM (I know, who would have guessed), our full backs need to stop bombing on and, rather than inverted wingers, we should play a a left footer on the left wing and right footer on the right so they can get our crosses in.

Football is not rocket science, but some managers think they need to be Sheldon Cooper and end up being him for the wrong reasons.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Iwans Big Toe

[S_81 798]

Wagner is tactically worse than Dean Smith. He’s even giving Roeder and Grant a run for their money. He really is awful and should have been sacked long ago. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

On 26/12/2023 at 17:18, cambridgeshire canary said:

I just don't understand hardly any of his substituions and changes and other than the McCallum one a match ago I can't really think of any match he's made decent changes in that have switched the game to being in our favour.

 

I mean just look at today he goes and takes one of only goal threats off the pitch to change the system up and bring on a defender and then tada like magic we get scored against in what feels like a few seconds later and as a result the game is dead and buried.

 

And yes; Only one loss in our last six matches is a good record but it really does not change what seems to be an issue in that Wagner just does not know how to change matches up nor how to make any decent changes to our team.

So how many minutes after Wagner brought Sargent on, did Sargent score the equaliser? Pretty good match changing substitution wouldn't you say??