Fundamentally what do you think is the real problem we face?

[Petriix 2,847]

I was asked this question as part of a direct message and I decided that I'd prefer the audience for my answer and participants in any subsequent conversation to number greater than one. Ultimately I don't claim to be an authority on this topic and I'd like my opinion to be challenged as well as seeing other people's points of view. So, here goes...

I think it's reasonable to state that most Norwich City supporters want to see us sustain a prolonged period of Premier League football. Some of us want something tangential to this involving the rather nebulous idea of 'doing it the right way'.

For me, 'the right way' means avoiding the attritional, low-skill, high-athleticism style embodied by past iterations of Stoke and Burnley as well as doing something other than spending huge sums on overpaid mercenaries. A challenge indeed!

Because we've seemed very close to achieving something like this on a number of occasions in recent years, I think people now erroneously frame it as being within our grasp in the near future. Unfortunately it's far from that simple.

There are many other teams in a similar situation to us and, like it or not, we're competing for a small slice of a big pie which has mostly already been gobbled up by the big clubs.

It's difficult because other clubs can spend more money. We don't have rich owners (in football terms) and we won't gamble on the scale required due to the risks involved.

I applaud our owners for refusing to gamble the future of the club on a small chance of success. What many people either don't realise or refuse to accept is that there are far more examples of clubs overreaching and failing than those which spent money they didn't have and hit the jackpot.

What we got spectacularly right was building a very cheap-to-assemble squad and then maximising its output through a focus on player development and teamwork. We took a relatively simple idea (simple is important, more on this later) and worked very hard to squeeze every drop of potential out of the players we had.

In my opinion the reality is quite different to the perception. The team won promotion (twice) despite generally being way below the individual level of most Premier League players. Our 2020/21 team only really had three top level players in Pukki, Buendia and Skipp and it's arguable that they only became top level players because of us and the way the system we played unleashed their strengths.

I believe that we were never actually good enough for the Premier League and required a huge amount of luck to achieve more than we did. The first big mistake of the Webber era was the way the squad was managed on the point of the first promotion.

I don't really understand what went on with the plethora of new contracts handed out but it seems that we were handing out Premier League wages to Championship players. This became more apparent after our second promotion when, staggeringly, our wage bill was on a par with many established mid-table teams and more than double what Brentford paid out.

I think the true value of the team was in the underlying philosophy and cohesion rather than the individuals, that is excepting the three mentioned above. What we did very well was to allow the strengths to shine while mitigating the weaknesses.

It's no coincidence that we secured relatively few of our Championship wins against the other top Championship teams. The team likely wasn't actually better than the Watfords and Bournemouths in a direct battle. What we had was a very simple plan which utilised our dogmatic and rigorous adherence to its principles to consistently and repeatedly beat the lesser opposition.

The mistake was a failure to recognise, value and build on the true roots of the success. We achieve so much with so little money yet, when the coffers were filled, we lost sight of the bigger picture and blew the lot for what amounted to a backwards step.

This feeds into the biggest mistake: throw out the simple plan for something beyond the skill-set of the players. We'd spent three seasons instilling a very specific system throughout every level of the club. It's unsurprising that the players couldn't quickly adapt. The new system exposed our weaknesses and undermined our strengths.

The recruitment is widely acknowledged as awful although there is still reasonable debate about the individuals signed. The undeniable fact is that the 2021-22 squad was (collectively) worse than the previous season. The combination of players and tactics and especially the huge wages being handed out were a mismatch for the task at hand.

The failure was then compounded by a blind belief that the only option was to follow the new plan through. Farke was sacked because Webber would not accept the truth of the situation. He (the latter) believed his squad was as good as its not insignificant cost. It wasn't.

So how could we have done it better?

I honestly believe that we needed to accept our limitations (and likely relegation) and simply try to incrementally improve year on year while doing the same thing that (in alternate seasons) worked so well. We should have signed more 'rough diamonds' and young prospects and taken time to bringing them through.

Unfortunately, it turned out, the combination of players and management that remained were still not at the level of the top Championship teams. Worse still, they were less able to beat the lower teams. So much energy was focused on adapting into the new 'pragmatic' style that the skills of the remaining players central to the old (previously successful) system were wasted.

Most telling is that the brief revival under Wagner was the closest we had come to emulating Farke's system (and team selection). A few key injuries left us unable to find a coherent plan at all. Now the most skillful 'Farkeball' players have all gone.

That leads us to the present. Ironically in a very similar position to when Webber and Farke first arrived. Yet, rather than a new beginning, this feels very much like the death-throws of the old order. Webber is on his way out, the club is strangely poised in terms of ownership and investment and the squad is lacking in 'weapons'.

We do, however, have some assets and potential. We might also have an underlying philosophy which could become successful in time. What we need is patience with all of these things and an acceptance that the past successes are no indication of our current position.

Whatever happens comes against the backdrop of an abysmal end to last season. Any improvement should be considered in a positive light. I'll be happy just to see a few wins and something vaguely coherent unfolding on the pitch. Mid-table would be acceptable as long as we are moving in the right direction. But I want to see players developing.

The real problem we face is that expectations are unrealistically high when you look at the reality of our situation. Let's get our feet on the ground and enjoy wherever this crazy ride takes us next.

Stop blaming the owners and definitely stop booing our own players. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Petriix

[Google Bot 3,298]

The problem, if there is one, would be striking the right balance between business/sustainability, being competitive, and entertaining the fans.  Or at least, something along those lines.

I think under Farke we had 2 of those elements covered and was relatively stable, but the inability to be competitive at prem level made us seek a more pragmatic approach in Smith...  Which ultimately lead to all 3 of the elements collapsing.

[Canario 207]

$

[The Real Buh 3,446]

You could have just said “it’s the fans fault”

have a great morning, Stu.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

The problem has been the ownership for a long time now. It is holding the club back- the glass ceiling exists because, compared to other teams, we lack investment. This tied Webber’s hands on promotion and it let best players slip out of our hands. Bottom line 90s local ownership structure isn’t fit for a 21st Century club. We can expect further decline unless the take over happens and some fresh vision and funding is found. At present we look very unconvincing to me - lacking a serious striking option for a top half finish and a CDM and showing almost no creativity in the top half of the pitch. 

[Petriix 2,847]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

You could have just said “it’s the fans fault”

have a great morning, Stu.

You could have tried to read some of of the words I wrote. It's hardly pro-Webber. I'm not blaming the fans for anything in the past, just suggesting that the biggest current issue is that there's a collective sense of entitlement which doesn't reflect reality. The reality being that Webber totally ****ed up the squad so now we're back to square one(ish).

33 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

we lack investment

Yes (sort of). But stop pretending that new ownership = sustained investment. There are many clubs which have been bought, laden with debt, failed on the pitch and fallen into decline. Just take a brief look at League One.

Webber should have understood that his hands were tied and not tried to assemble a new squad for a new system on an impossible small budget. It's a bit like selling a 3 bedroom house in Norwich and trying to buy somewhere in London with the only thing you can afford being a run-down one bedroom flat in a shady estate.

The truth is that our budget actually matched the competition in our last relegation season. The money was just very badly spent. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,019]

6 hours ago, Petriix said:

I was asked this question as part of a direct message and I decided that I'd prefer the audience for my answer and participants in any subsequent conversation to number greater than one. Ultimately I don't claim to be an authority on this topic and I'd like my opinion to be challenged as well as seeing other people's points of view. So, here goes...

I think it's reasonable to state that most Norwich City supporters want to see us sustain a prolonged period of Premier League football. Some of us want something tangential to this involving the rather nebulous idea of 'doing it the right way'.

For me, 'the right way' means avoiding the attritional, low-skill, high-athleticism style embodied by past iterations of Stoke and Burnley as well as doing something other than spending huge sums on overpaid mercenaries. A challenge indeed!

Because we've seemed very close to achieving something like this on a number of occasions in recent years, I think people now erroneously frame it as being within our grasp in the near future. Unfortunately it's far from that simple.

There are many other teams in a similar situation to us and, like it or not, we're competing for a small slice of a big pie which has mostly already been gobbled up by the big clubs.

It's difficult because other clubs can spend more money. We don't have rich owners (in football terms) and we won't gamble on the scale required due to the risks involved.

I applaud our owners for refusing to gamble the future of the club on a small chance of success. What many people either don't realise or refuse to accept is that there are far more examples of clubs overreaching and failing than those which spent money they didn't have and hit the jackpot.

What we got spectacularly right was building a very cheap-to-assemble squad and then maximising its output through a focus on player development and teamwork. We took a relatively simple idea (simple is important, more on this later) and worked very hard to squeeze every drop of potential out of the players we had.

In my opinion the reality is quite different to the perception. The team won promotion (twice) despite generally being way below the individual level of most Premier League players. Our 2020/21 team only really had three top level players in Pukki, Buendia and Skipp and it's arguable that they only became top level players because of us and the way the system we played unleashed their strengths.

I believe that we were never actually good enough for the Premier League and required a huge amount of luck to achieve more than we did. The first big mistake of the Webber era was the way the squad was managed on the point of the first promotion.

I don't really understand what went on with the plethora of new contracts handed out but it seems that we were handing out Premier League wages to Championship players. This became more apparent after our second promotion when, staggeringly, our wage bill was on a par with many established mid-table teams and more than double what Brentford paid out.

I think the true value of the team was in the underlying philosophy and cohesion rather than the individuals, that is excepting the three mentioned above. What we did very well was to allow the strengths to shine while mitigating the weaknesses.

It's no coincidence that we secured relatively few of our Championship wins against the other top Championship teams. The team likely wasn't actually better than the Watfords and Bournemouths in a direct battle. What we had was a very simple plan which utilised our dogmatic and rigorous adherence to its principles to consistently and repeatedly beat the lesser opposition.

The mistake was a failure to recognise, value and build on the true roots of the success. We achieve so much with so little money yet, when the coffers were filled, we lost sight of the bigger picture and blew the lot for what amounted to a backwards step.

This feeds into the biggest mistake: throw out the simple plan for something beyond the skill-set of the players. We'd spent three seasons instilling a very specific system throughout every level of the club. It's unsurprising that the players couldn't quickly adapt. The new system exposed our weaknesses and undermined our strengths.

The recruitment is widely acknowledged as awful although there is still reasonable debate about the individuals signed. The undeniable fact is that the 2021-22 squad was (collectively) worse than the previous season. The combination of players and tactics and especially the huge wages being handed out were a mismatch for the task at hand.

The failure was then compounded by a blind belief that the only option was to follow the new plan through. Farke was sacked because Webber would not accept the truth of the situation. He (the latter) believed his squad was as good as its not insignificant cost. It wasn't.

So how could we have done it better?

I honestly believe that we needed to accept our limitations (and likely relegation) and simply try to incrementally improve year on year while doing the same thing that (in alternate seasons) worked so well. We should have signed more 'rough diamonds' and young prospects and taken time to bringing them through.

Unfortunately, it turned out, the combination of players and management that remained were still not at the level of the top Championship teams. Worse still, they were less able to beat the lower teams. So much energy was focused on adapting into the new 'pragmatic' style that the skills of the remaining players central to the old (previously successful) system were wasted.

Most telling is that the brief revival under Wagner was the closest we had come to emulating Farke's system (and team selection). A few key injuries left us unable to find a coherent plan at all. Now the most skillful 'Farkeball' players have all gone.

That leads us to the present. Ironically in a very similar position to when Webber and Farke first arrived. Yet, rather than a new beginning, this feels very much like the death-throws of the old order. Webber is on his way out, the club is strangely poised in terms of ownership and investment and the squad is lacking in 'weapons'.

We do, however, have some assets and potential. We might also have an underlying philosophy which could become successful in time. What we need is patience with all of these things and an acceptance that the past successes are no indication of our current position.

Whatever happens comes against the backdrop of an abysmal end to last season. Any improvement should be considered in a positive light. I'll be happy just to see a few wins and something vaguely coherent unfolding on the pitch. Mid-table would be acceptable as long as we are moving in the right direction. But I want to see players developing.

The real problem we face is that expectations are unrealistically high when you look at the reality of our situation. Let's get our feet on the ground and enjoy wherever this crazy ride takes us next.

Stop blaming the owners and definitely stop booing our own players. 

I enjoyed reading this. Reminiscent to match day programme notes by Neil Doncaster but obviously longer. 

[Cowboy 197]

6 hours ago, Canario said:

$

TL;DR

[Cowboy 197]

7 hours ago, Petriix said:

I was asked this question as part of a direct message and I decided that I'd prefer the audience for my answer and participants in any subsequent conversation to number greater than one. Ultimately I don't claim to be an authority on this topic and I'd like my opinion to be challenged as well as seeing other people's points of view. So, here goes...

I think it's reasonable to state that most Norwich City supporters want to see us sustain a prolonged period of Premier League football. Some of us want something tangential to this involving the rather nebulous idea of 'doing it the right way'.

For me, 'the right way' means avoiding the attritional, low-skill, high-athleticism style embodied by past iterations of Stoke and Burnley as well as doing something other than spending huge sums on overpaid mercenaries. A challenge indeed!

Because we've seemed very close to achieving something like this on a number of occasions in recent years, I think people now erroneously frame it as being within our grasp in the near future. Unfortunately it's far from that simple.

There are many other teams in a similar situation to us and, like it or not, we're competing for a small slice of a big pie which has mostly already been gobbled up by the big clubs.

It's difficult because other clubs can spend more money. We don't have rich owners (in football terms) and we won't gamble on the scale required due to the risks involved.

I applaud our owners for refusing to gamble the future of the club on a small chance of success. What many people either don't realise or refuse to accept is that there are far more examples of clubs overreaching and failing than those which spent money they didn't have and hit the jackpot.

What we got spectacularly right was building a very cheap-to-assemble squad and then maximising its output through a focus on player development and teamwork. We took a relatively simple idea (simple is important, more on this later) and worked very hard to squeeze every drop of potential out of the players we had.

In my opinion the reality is quite different to the perception. The team won promotion (twice) despite generally being way below the individual level of most Premier League players. Our 2020/21 team only really had three top level players in Pukki, Buendia and Skipp and it's arguable that they only became top level players because of us and the way the system we played unleashed their strengths.

I believe that we were never actually good enough for the Premier League and required a huge amount of luck to achieve more than we did. The first big mistake of the Webber era was the way the squad was managed on the point of the first promotion.

I don't really understand what went on with the plethora of new contracts handed out but it seems that we were handing out Premier League wages to Championship players. This became more apparent after our second promotion when, staggeringly, our wage bill was on a par with many established mid-table teams and more than double what Brentford paid out.

I think the true value of the team was in the underlying philosophy and cohesion rather than the individuals, that is excepting the three mentioned above. What we did very well was to allow the strengths to shine while mitigating the weaknesses.

It's no coincidence that we secured relatively few of our Championship wins against the other top Championship teams. The team likely wasn't actually better than the Watfords and Bournemouths in a direct battle. What we had was a very simple plan which utilised our dogmatic and rigorous adherence to its principles to consistently and repeatedly beat the lesser opposition.

The mistake was a failure to recognise, value and build on the true roots of the success. We achieve so much with so little money yet, when the coffers were filled, we lost sight of the bigger picture and blew the lot for what amounted to a backwards step.

This feeds into the biggest mistake: throw out the simple plan for something beyond the skill-set of the players. We'd spent three seasons instilling a very specific system throughout every level of the club. It's unsurprising that the players couldn't quickly adapt. The new system exposed our weaknesses and undermined our strengths.

The recruitment is widely acknowledged as awful although there is still reasonable debate about the individuals signed. The undeniable fact is that the 2021-22 squad was (collectively) worse than the previous season. The combination of players and tactics and especially the huge wages being handed out were a mismatch for the task at hand.

The failure was then compounded by a blind belief that the only option was to follow the new plan through. Farke was sacked because Webber would not accept the truth of the situation. He (the latter) believed his squad was as good as its not insignificant cost. It wasn't.

So how could we have done it better?

I honestly believe that we needed to accept our limitations (and likely relegation) and simply try to incrementally improve year on year while doing the same thing that (in alternate seasons) worked so well. We should have signed more 'rough diamonds' and young prospects and taken time to bringing them through.

Unfortunately, it turned out, the combination of players and management that remained were still not at the level of the top Championship teams. Worse still, they were less able to beat the lower teams. So much energy was focused on adapting into the new 'pragmatic' style that the skills of the remaining players central to the old (previously successful) system were wasted.

Most telling is that the brief revival under Wagner was the closest we had come to emulating Farke's system (and team selection). A few key injuries left us unable to find a coherent plan at all. Now the most skillful 'Farkeball' players have all gone.

That leads us to the present. Ironically in a very similar position to when Webber and Farke first arrived. Yet, rather than a new beginning, this feels very much like the death-throws of the old order. Webber is on his way out, the club is strangely poised in terms of ownership and investment and the squad is lacking in 'weapons'.

We do, however, have some assets and potential. We might also have an underlying philosophy which could become successful in time. What we need is patience with all of these things and an acceptance that the past successes are no indication of our current position.

Whatever happens comes against the backdrop of an abysmal end to last season. Any improvement should be considered in a positive light. I'll be happy just to see a few wins and something vaguely coherent unfolding on the pitch. Mid-table would be acceptable as long as we are moving in the right direction. But I want to see players developing.

The real problem we face is that expectations are unrealistically high when you look at the reality of our situation. Let's get our feet on the ground and enjoy wherever this crazy ride takes us next.

Stop blaming the owners and definitely stop booing our own players. 

Concise and to the point.

I'd agree with most of that. Some rather fortunate outcomes sent expectations well ahead of the reality, and has made dealing with the return to reality tough for a lot of supporters. It's essentially cold turkey.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,757]

The simple fact is that due to how modern football works be if for better or worse our current ownership model and funding scheme will never allow us to stay in the top flight for more than a season at best.

Edited July 17, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Mello Yello 2,298]

Fundamentally what do you think is the real problem we face?

 

The pedestrianisation of Norwich City centre....

[WD40 720]

I would have thought it’s obvious. Money. Clubs that you may think are ‘plucky’ and ‘doing it the right way’ almost certainly have at least 10x as much as we do.

Fundamentally it’s all due to the owners not having any money to throw at the club, so every transfer needs to strike gold. That’s not letting old Webber off the hook though because he’s not struck gold in over 5 years which is what he’s been paid very well to do. 

[BigFish 1,988]

7 hours ago, Petriix said:

I was asked this question as part of a direct message and I decided that I'd prefer the audience for my answer and participants in any subsequent conversation to number greater than one. Ultimately I don't claim to be an authority on this topic and I'd like my opinion to be challenged as well as seeing other people's points of view. So, here goes...

I think it's reasonable to state that most Norwich City supporters want to see us sustain a prolonged period of Premier League football. Some of us want something tangential to this involving the rather nebulous idea of 'doing it the right way'.

For me, 'the right way' means avoiding the attritional, low-skill, high-athleticism style embodied by past iterations of Stoke and Burnley as well as doing something other than spending huge sums on overpaid mercenaries. A challenge indeed!

Because we've seemed very close to achieving something like this on a number of occasions in recent years, I think people now erroneously frame it as being within our grasp in the near future. Unfortunately it's far from that simple.

There are many other teams in a similar situation to us and, like it or not, we're competing for a small slice of a big pie which has mostly already been gobbled up by the big clubs.

It's difficult because other clubs can spend more money. We don't have rich owners (in football terms) and we won't gamble on the scale required due to the risks involved.

I applaud our owners for refusing to gamble the future of the club on a small chance of success. What many people either don't realise or refuse to accept is that there are far more examples of clubs overreaching and failing than those which spent money they didn't have and hit the jackpot.

What we got spectacularly right was building a very cheap-to-assemble squad and then maximising its output through a focus on player development and teamwork. We took a relatively simple idea (simple is important, more on this later) and worked very hard to squeeze every drop of potential out of the players we had.

In my opinion the reality is quite different to the perception. The team won promotion (twice) despite generally being way below the individual level of most Premier League players. Our 2020/21 team only really had three top level players in Pukki, Buendia and Skipp and it's arguable that they only became top level players because of us and the way the system we played unleashed their strengths.

I believe that we were never actually good enough for the Premier League and required a huge amount of luck to achieve more than we did. The first big mistake of the Webber era was the way the squad was managed on the point of the first promotion.

I don't really understand what went on with the plethora of new contracts handed out but it seems that we were handing out Premier League wages to Championship players. This became more apparent after our second promotion when, staggeringly, our wage bill was on a par with many established mid-table teams and more than double what Brentford paid out.

I think the true value of the team was in the underlying philosophy and cohesion rather than the individuals, that is excepting the three mentioned above. What we did very well was to allow the strengths to shine while mitigating the weaknesses.

It's no coincidence that we secured relatively few of our Championship wins against the other top Championship teams. The team likely wasn't actually better than the Watfords and Bournemouths in a direct battle. What we had was a very simple plan which utilised our dogmatic and rigorous adherence to its principles to consistently and repeatedly beat the lesser opposition.

The mistake was a failure to recognise, value and build on the true roots of the success. We achieve so much with so little money yet, when the coffers were filled, we lost sight of the bigger picture and blew the lot for what amounted to a backwards step.

This feeds into the biggest mistake: throw out the simple plan for something beyond the skill-set of the players. We'd spent three seasons instilling a very specific system throughout every level of the club. It's unsurprising that the players couldn't quickly adapt. The new system exposed our weaknesses and undermined our strengths.

The recruitment is widely acknowledged as awful although there is still reasonable debate about the individuals signed. The undeniable fact is that the 2021-22 squad was (collectively) worse than the previous season. The combination of players and tactics and especially the huge wages being handed out were a mismatch for the task at hand.

The failure was then compounded by a blind belief that the only option was to follow the new plan through. Farke was sacked because Webber would not accept the truth of the situation. He (the latter) believed his squad was as good as its not insignificant cost. It wasn't.

So how could we have done it better?

I honestly believe that we needed to accept our limitations (and likely relegation) and simply try to incrementally improve year on year while doing the same thing that (in alternate seasons) worked so well. We should have signed more 'rough diamonds' and young prospects and taken time to bringing them through.

Unfortunately, it turned out, the combination of players and management that remained were still not at the level of the top Championship teams. Worse still, they were less able to beat the lower teams. So much energy was focused on adapting into the new 'pragmatic' style that the skills of the remaining players central to the old (previously successful) system were wasted.

Most telling is that the brief revival under Wagner was the closest we had come to emulating Farke's system (and team selection). A few key injuries left us unable to find a coherent plan at all. Now the most skillful 'Farkeball' players have all gone.

That leads us to the present. Ironically in a very similar position to when Webber and Farke first arrived. Yet, rather than a new beginning, this feels very much like the death-throws of the old order. Webber is on his way out, the club is strangely poised in terms of ownership and investment and the squad is lacking in 'weapons'.

We do, however, have some assets and potential. We might also have an underlying philosophy which could become successful in time. What we need is patience with all of these things and an acceptance that the past successes are no indication of our current position.

Whatever happens comes against the backdrop of an abysmal end to last season. Any improvement should be considered in a positive light. I'll be happy just to see a few wins and something vaguely coherent unfolding on the pitch. Mid-table would be acceptable as long as we are moving in the right direction. But I want to see players developing.

The real problem we face is that expectations are unrealistically high when you look at the reality of our situation. Let's get our feet on the ground and enjoy wherever this crazy ride takes us next.

Stop blaming the owners and definitely stop booing our own players. 

I started reading this @Petriix preparing to disagree with every word (I find I predominately disagree with your posts) but this is brilliantly hitting the nail on the head. The usual broken records will refuse to engage, blame the owners etc but this acts as an interesting counterpoint to the hyperbole that has filled the close season on this board. Well done.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Why say something with 5 words when you can use 1000 hey 😂😂 I jest. 
 

I have to say though In all seriousness, our problem as a club lays entirely with the owners be that the old ones or the current ones. For a vast period of time, every season when we’ve had the chance to push on and become an established top level side in the country our leadership has made a series of catastrophic errors in judgement leading to our own fall down the pyramid.

At every crucial point in our club’s history dramatic errors from ownership level have been our downfall.

Be that the gutting of the 85/86 cup winning side. The gutting of the 92/93 3rd place Prem side. The woeful under investing of the playing side under Worthington, Lambert, Hughton, Neil and Farke. The timing of relegation’s also almost always coincides with new record levels of tv money going to Prem clubs the following season making the gap between us and them even larger. Plus the decisions not to renovate the city stand at times when building costs and materials were relatively low to make the capacity larger meaning in all likelihood If we want to expand it will cost us £100 mill when 15 years ago we could of done it for £6mill. All of the above has been directly controlled by ownership which has contributed to our current situation. 

[ridgeman 132]

Perhaps if Webber had listened to Farke and gone for quality over quantity the outcome might have been different. Perhaps if Webber had stood by Farke and continued with his style of football we would not be where we are today. Only one person to blame in this mess Webber out of his depth as Sporting Director should have been infrastructure director.

[Mello Yello 2,298]

Ask me again at Christmas....

[hogesar 9,711]

Good post @Petriix

With the benefit of hindsight I think our first promotion season, with a prime Pukki was our best opportunity to stay up. And we didn't have the money to give that a fighting chance. The reality is we still probably needed £100 million investment to make us competitive in Farke's style at Premier League level. 

I do think that would have given us an opportunity to stay up but I don't think it would have necessarily led to a long stint in the Premier League, but it's all hypothetical so we'll never know!

[ricardo 7,395]

Its quite simple really, its part of the human condition. Football like life is cyclical, there are good times and bad. We enjoy the good times and come to expect that they will last forever but of course they don't and we become disillusioned and unhappy again. 

Embracing the yoyo nature of our existence makes it easier to come to terms with the reality of supporting a club of our size. There is no magic bullet to change this and there never will be.

[lake district canary 4,540]

Agree with what @Petriix says in ths thread. The problems are clear, for the owners in not having enough to invest, Sporting Director in the middle of the conundrum of how to create a footballing situation of success without the resources other clubs have - and at the sharp end a team that has to be more than the sum of its parts. 

What is missed out of that little paragraph is the head coach, who as always is the fall guy when things go wrong on the pitch, even though he is hamstrung by the quality of players he has at his disposal and the issues beyond his control higher up in the club food chain. 

I don't need to go through the Farke situation again, but as long as the head coach is the fall guy at our club, you could have Pep Guardiola in charge and he would probably get the sack if results went bad.....

I don't pretend to have solutions other than that a huge amount depends on the Sporting Director to totally understand the situation of the club and not over reach his/her ambition that he desires for the club, as I believe Webber did. He failed to recognise the problem was with the quality of players he could bring in and our problems do not go away just by sacking coaches. You do not appease fans by sacking coaches when the problem is not the coach, but the way the club is set up.

That is not to say the club is wrong to be set up as a self-sustaining club, merely that those in key positions accept the situation the club is in and work within that. Webber probably got in the best players he could - and even said some of them were for the future - but then failed to give the head coach time to work them in.

He succumbed to outside pressure, the ridicule of the media and so called experts, the noise from fans and social media, his own mis-placed ambition and his ego. A huge pressure there with all that - but he could have been strong and stood up to all that and we would still have the project in place.

Instead of which we have the prospect of seeing the best head coach we've had in years succeed at a rival club. I guess some people will want Farke to fail  - to somehow justify their stance when he was struggling in the PL - but really Farke is now irrelevant. It is about the present and how we progress from here - and that is a huge question.

We need to find a Sporting Director - and it needs to be a special person who will need to be totally strong in the face of adversity and who will have the sense to see where the problems really are and not sack a good coach when the problems are elsewhere. I don't know about Wagner, but I'm not hugely optimistic. Get the right sporting director in is the main thing, who can get the right coach in and stick with them through thick and thin. It's a hugejob and requires special qualities. Webber was ok up to a point, but lost his way a bit.

it's not money that is the issue, it's not the owners, its not even the players or the head coach - the next S/D is the biggest issue the club faces as we move forwards. Very few people are going to be right for a club like ours.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,035]

7 hours ago, Canario said:

$

Seconded........

[canarybubbles 1,924]

I think it's too simple to blame it all on lack of money. We didn't have any money when Webber was making good decisions.

[Bert 236]

Bang average owners who are also relatively poor.

aged fan base with a limited gene pool 

[Indy 3,307]

Hard to argue with anything Petriix said, great thought out post and in reality how it is!

My only caveat is that we’re on a downward trajectory, we are already primed to accept losing our best young players of value and our SD is already heading out the door yet we’re only a couple weeks away from the season starting!

I can absolutely agree with every word but let’s see where we are come September and then revisit.

[canarybubbles 1,924]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

Hard to argue with anything Petriix said, great thought out post and in reality how it is!

My only caveat is that we’re on a downward trajectory, we are already primed to accept losing our best young players of value and our SD is already heading out the door yet we’re only a couple weeks away from the season starting!

I can absolutely agree with every word but let’s see where we are come September and then revisit.

Yes, I think the downward trajectory is very important and is going to be a serious drag even if we start making good decisions again. A poor start to the season and things could get very toxic very quickly.

[lake district canary 4,540]

40 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I think it's too simple to blame it all on lack of money. We didn't have any money when Webber was making good decisions.

Exactly. The responsibility lies with an SD to make the right decisions at any given time.

[Indy 3,307]

9 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Exactly. The responsibility lies with an SD to make the right decisions at any given time.

And here’s my concern Lakey, he’s already four months into his exit, where is his motivation to do this? Is his focus on his current job even at 90% now or is he more focused on where he’s going?

A poor start and I’m not sure all the fan base inside FCR will feel the same as Pertrix has laid out! It can become toxic quickly this year then all fingers will point to fans causing a poor atmosphere and not that a key summer has been poorly handled.

Time will tell, first few home games are critical to get off to a good start.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Indy

[canarybubbles 1,924]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Exactly. The responsibility lies with an SD to make the right decisions at any given time.

To be fair to Webber (he says through grated teeth), being a SD is not an easy job and any SD is going to make some bad mistakes, especially in recruitment. My beef with Webber is that his recruitment for the last PL season and the subsequent sacking of Farke seemed more about bolstering his own reputation as an exceptional SD who found obscure gems and got loans from big-name clubs rather than providing what Farke requested and what the club needed. Personal ego trumped professionalism IMO, and we have paid for it ever since.

Many people on here will take a much more charitable view of our SD, I know. But as I've said many times before, to me he's now a busted flush and nothing will start improving until he's gone. And I'm really worried that if he doesn't get the new position which he believes he merits, he will withdraw his resignation and S&J will accept him back into the fold. 

[lake district canary 4,540]

3 minutes ago, Indy said:

And here’s my concern Lakey, he’s already four months into his exit, where is his motivation to do this? Is his focus on his current job even at 90% now or is he more focused on where he’s going?

A poor start and I’m not sure all the fan base inside FCR will feel the same as Pertrix has laid out! It can become toxic quickly this year then all fingers will point to fans causing a poor atmosphere and not that a key summer has been poorly handled.

Time will tell, first few home games are critical to get off to a good start.

And there is the rub. Wagner will need time to get his new players integrated - and there are bound to be some leaving and new ones come in right into the start of the season. So a good start is not a given.....which begs the question, will the fans be patient? Probably not, which will then exacerbate the downward trajectory as fans get on the players/|Wagner's/Webber's back......

Patience will be needed, but that is tough for our fans........but we can't expect the team to be at it's best from the start of the season.

[Badger 2,407]

Several of the responses on here have backed up your point about expectations being problematical and to that I would add the simplistic belief in easy solutions - more money and new ownership.

The truth of the matter is that we are doing pretty well for a club our size and that clubs with gates in the mid 20,000s do not stay in the EPL beyond a few years at best. There is just so much evidence to this fact that I am genuinely amazed at how people can think otherwise.

I would caveat this with two points - with which I think you would agree:

1. We should have done better in our last two EPL seasons and they were "opportunities missed." The problem is, that the real solution behind this, a more "pragmatic style" can be quite "testing" for spectators.

2. I would happily accept a sugar daddy/ mummy happy to give us tens of millions a year to help us defy gravity - I'm just not banking on it.

In the meantime, I'm with Ricardo, embrace the inevitable "yo-yoing" (hopefully with some longer stays) - regardless of ownership it is the most likely future.

[canarybubbles 1,924]

15 minutes ago, Indy said:

And here’s my concern Lakey, he’s already four months into his exit, where is his motivation to do this? Is his focus on his current job even at 90% now or is he more focused on where he’s going?

A poor start and I’m not sure all the fan base inside FCR will feel the same as Pertrix has laid out! It can become toxic quickly this year then all fingers will point to fans causing a poor atmosphere and not that a key summer has been poorly handled.

Time will tell, first few home games are critical to get off to a good start.

And if we do have a poor start and it gets toxic, what does it matter to Webber? He has a scapegoat ready and he'll just sack Wagner. And if he gets the Leeds job or something at a similar level, he'll just walk away. No mud will stick to him outside of Norfolk.

Edited July 17, 2023 by canarybubbles