There is a deep malaise at the club and it starts at the top

[Monty13 2,268]

12 hours ago, hogesar said:

Nah, this OTT stuff was said before Farkes second season and even some games into it.

Pre-season, 5 or 6 signings changing the look of the first team and we will all be excited again.

I'll add, Jim claiming our owners are responsible for the timeframe of the Americans getting on board is, presumably, him making things up.

Football is fairly unique business, being a supporter as well as a customer of one even more so.

I do find it interesting people ignore that. Will we all be excited after each summer? What miserable bastards aren’t? It’s the hope that kills us after all.

That has nothing to do with whether the club has issues. All organisations have areas of improvement either possible or needed, it’s only the scale which is debatable. 

Given where we are and what we are achieving it’s getting harder to deny we have some deep ones.

I’m not one for sackings personally, but it’s pretty obvious something needs to change in approach after this seasons post mortem, we seem broken.

[Ken Hairy 3,799]

12 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Lots of this is spot on. Should we not get a full take over in the summer we are in massive financial trouble. We will probably end up in mid table mediocrity for the next decade like we had done prior to Worthy or Lambert. 

If we don't get the full takeover we'll be in danger of falling into League 1 in a season or two.

Can't argue with any of the OP, 100% spot on.

[hogesar 9,809]

4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It has been re-branded as success as part of the little norwich narrative. Of course it’s an achievement and not to be sniffed at but it should be the start of what we want to achieve and not the end game/ceiling. 
 

I don’t think it’s “entitled” to want us to match the likes of Brentford, Fulham, Brighton etc.

To want us to match them, no. To expect us to match them, yes. Until this season we were matching Fulham. Brentford have had a couple seasons, well so did we under Lambert then Hughton. So they've not yet excelled beyond our recent history.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,468]

As with everything in the middle ground there is likely to be some truth. 
 

Defending the current set of performances , results and inability to compete against the top 30% of the table is virtually impossible. Pointing to previous success is fine, but the current situation is abject. The club has a very strange feel to it .

[king canary 7,703]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

To want us to match them, no. To expect us to match them, yes. Until this season we were matching Fulham. Brentford have had a couple seasons, well so did we under Lambert then Hughton. So they've not yet excelled beyond our recent history.

No but I think it's OK to expect us to actually be competitive. This is what I think you sometimes miss about those premier league seasons. Yes teams get relegated. But they don't **** their pants in public the way we did in those seasons. 

There is nothing acceptable about successive Premier League seasons where we've finished with 6th and 7th lowest point totals in League history and isn't entitled to say that.

[kingsway 94]

14 hours ago, Beetley Yellow said:

Too many influential people at the Club are too comfortable. Mediocrity is becoming accepted in many areas. A ‘90%’ commitment attitude tends to result in such.

In particularly "Lord" Webber as he was described as on Cabbage Call the other week!

I'm not comfortable that in his early days here Webber made no secret of his desire to use his time at Carrow Road as a stepping stone to a job at a bigger club. - After 2 awful Premier League campaigns this stepping stone now doesn't exist and the previously driven, career enhancer Webber has changed his career mindset and is now happy to plodd along here drawing his huge salary especially with his other half in a good position at the club.

After the Germans, Pukki and Buendia, Webbers recruitment has been mainly poor.

Edited April 2, 2023 by kingsway

[hogesar 9,809]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

No but I think it's OK to expect us to actually be competitive. This is what I think you sometimes miss about those premier league seasons. Yes teams get relegated. But they don't **** their pants in public the way we did in those seasons. 

There is nothing acceptable about successive Premier League seasons where we've finished with 6th and 7th lowest point totals in League history and isn't entitled to say that.

No but I've never really disagreed with that.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,046]

12 hours ago, hogesar said:

Promotions to the Premier League aren't a success? No wonder you're never happy watching NCFC.

The entitlement of our fans has stunk more than our performances at time this season.

Will you please stop hitting out at the fans. Webber is on record as saying the target is for Norwich City to be a "Top 26" team. Failure to reach the play offs will be a failure to hit his self imposed target. We have been garbage this season, the squad is inferior to previous squads. On a personal level I do not feel I should be tagged as "entitled" based on the absolute garbage I have seem served up at CR this season it is ****ing heartbreaking for me as a fan to see the direction Webber and Co has taken the club in. We have had some undeniably great times under the Delia regime but the sad fact is when she finally steps aside she will leave the club in a worse position than when she took over...............

[hogesar 9,809]

6 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Will you please stop hitting out at the fans. Webber is on record as saying the target is for Norwich City to be a "Top 26" team. Failure to reach the play offs will be a failure to hit his self imposed target. We have been garbage this season, the squad is inferior to previous squads. On a personal level I do not feel I should be tagged as "entitled" based on the absolute garbage I have seem served up at CR this season it is ****ing heartbreaking for me as a fan to see the direction Webber and Co has taken the club in. We have had some undeniably great times under the Delia regime but the sad fact is when she finally steps aside she will leave the club in a worse position than when she took over...............

I'm sorry but you should probably read my post before writing all that. Where have I said this season isn't failure? Where have I said this season has even been half decent? All I said was if you don't think Norwich getting promoted is a success then that is entitlement - not thinking we should be better than this season.

Also, how will she leave the club in a worse position out of interest? From what I can see, our assets, infrastructure,  training facilities, youth progression are all significantly ahead from when she was first involved?

Edited April 2, 2023 by hogesar

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,899]

37 minutes ago, king canary said:

No but I think it's OK to expect us to actually be competitive. This is what I think you sometimes miss about those premier league seasons. Yes teams get relegated. But they don't **** their pants in public the way we did in those seasons. 

There is nothing acceptable about successive Premier League seasons where we've finished with 6th and 7th lowest point totals in League history and isn't entitled to say that.

When you consider what we spent, both in terms of transfers and wages, the 2nd attempt was a full on toilet destroying diarrhea explosion. I think most fans would have been happy with us just staying in the fight till the end, and at least go down swinging if indeed we did go down. Instead we were relegated by February.

OTBC

[duke63 547]

Football has always been cyclical. You can bet the minute Pep says he has had enough at City, they will go into decline.

Liverpool may already have hit that point. Chelsea seem to have done so too.

None of the players, other than perhaps Marquinhos have been brought in by Wagner. Let him bring his style of player in this summer and then judge.

Its also fair to say the injuries to Dowell and Onel have not helped as both were on fire in Wagner's first few weeks here.

 

[Soldier on 172]

Need a change of ownership and an opportunity for Attanassio to bring his own people in and make the club more progressive.

[hogesar 9,809]

8 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Football has always been cyclical. You can bet the minute Pep says he has had enough at City, they will go into decline.

Liverpool may already have hit that point. Chelsea seem to have done so too.

None of the players, other than perhaps Marquinhos have been brought in by Wagner. Let him bring his style of player in this summer and then judge.

Its also fair to say the injuries to Dowell and Onel have not helped as both were on fire in Wagner's first few weeks here.

 

Fair post.

[Mello Yello 2,315]

Sack the bored.....It's all the entitled Fan's fault.....

[norfolkngood 1,095]

18 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Football has always been cyclical. You can bet the minute Pep says he has had enough at City, they will go into decline.

Liverpool may already have hit that point. Chelsea seem to have done so too.

None of the players, other than perhaps Marquinhos have been brought in by Wagner. Let him bring his style of player in this summer and then judge.

Its also fair to say the injuries to Dowell and Onel have not helped as both were on fire in Wagner's first few weeks here.

 

i half agree with that ! 

Yes Wagner has to bring in his own players 

But his job is also to improve the ones here 

that is what Webber said a change of head coach same style etc means it will always be easier and not big overhauls then he signed a manager who was completely different (smith )

Yes wagner is more Farke style and talks the talk after have success 4/5 years ago with one team could be another Paul Lambert after he left us ? 

Webber can not be trusted to overhaul this team he was the one who signed them ! 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by norfolkngood

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

No but I think it's OK to expect us to actually be competitive. This is what I think you sometimes miss about those premier league seasons. Yes teams get relegated. But they don't **** their pants in public the way we did in those seasons. 

There is nothing acceptable about successive Premier League seasons where we've finished with 6th and 7th lowest point totals in League history and isn't entitled to say that.

They also significantly improve their infrastructure and grow the club in the way we haven’t. Ok Brentford we’re starting from a lower base so that initial growth is easier to do but they have built which means they will never return to bring that little lower league side who got 8,000 crowds that they were not that long ago.

Yes we’ve improved our training ground but so have most clubs in the top two divisions. Our facilities are not unique. What we have not done is built a squad and increased our ground capacity so that both are at a level that allow us to compete long term.

 

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I'm sorry but you should probably read my post before writing all that. Where have I said this season isn't failure? Where have I said this season has even been half decent? All I said was if you don't think Norwich getting promoted is a success then that is entitlement - not thinking we should be better than this season.

Also, how will she leave the club in a worse position out of interest? From what I can see, our assets, infrastructure,  training facilities, youth progression are all significantly ahead from when she was first involved?

Chase bought Colney. He also bought the land around the club that made us a lot of money a while ago. Arguably also a better record in terms of youth progression. 

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,899]

13 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Sack the bored.....It's all the entitled Fan's fault.....

Indeed! Privileged b*stards!

Some of the hollering from the crowd yesterday was nothing short of disgusting:

"Do you mind awfully if one of you has a shot on target please? Much obliged."

"Can one please try not to lose control of the football when under no pressure? So very kind, thank you." 

"Maximilian my dear boy; can you please stay on your two feet. Down with that sort of thing. Apologies for any offensive given."

The noise of the blankets being re-positioned in the Geoffrey Watling as well as the audible tutting from the Barclay was so out of order.

OTBC

[norfolkngood 1,095]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

They also significantly improve their infrastructure and grow the club in the way we haven’t. Ok Brentford we’re starting from a lower base so that initial growth is easier to do but they have built which means they will never return to bring that little lower league side who got 8,000 crowds that they were not that long ago.

Yes we’ve improved our training ground but so have most clubs in the top two divisions. Our facilities are not unique. What we have not done is built a squad and increased our ground capacity so that both are at a level that allow us to compete long term.

 

Brentford Recruitment have done  a amazing job ! 

 

[Mello Yello 2,315]

2 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Indeed! Privileged b*stards!

Some of the hollering from the crowd yesterday was nothing short of disgusting:

"Do you mind awfully if one of you has a shot on target please? Much obliged."

"Can one please try not to lose control of the football when under no pressure? So very kind, thank you." 

"Maximilian my dear boy; can you please stay on your two feet. Down with that sort of thing. Apologies for any offensive given."

The noise of the blankets being re-positioned in the Geoffrey Watling as well as the audible tutting from the Barclay was so out of order.

OTBC

"HUZZAH!"....."we've won a corner!".....

[nutty nigel 7,656]

It's beyond me why we have to continually go back to Robert Chase's time and make ridiculous comparisons. It's a different age and different challenges. If folk really want to consider ancient history when criticising what we have now then go the whole hog and start with one top three finish, no FA Cup finals and work out where that ranks in the 92 and beyond.

This deep malaise must have started in 1902.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by nutty nigel

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

Jim, you have no idea why the takeover by Attanasio – if there is indeed going to be one – hasn’t happened yet, and so no idea who, if anybody, is to blame. I would point out that it took Kroenke years to complete his takeover of Arsenal. And you have no idea whether anyone else has been turned down, let alone anyone richer than Attanasio, leaving aside the obvious point that richer doesn’t not necessarily equate to better. You don’t help your argument by throwing in unsubstantiated allegations.

Moving on, no, there is not a deep-seated malaise at Norwich City. I can think of a few clubs where that is true, in the sense of being a long-running basket-case. Clubs that have had a revolving door of owners, and/or multiple close shaves with financial fair play, or even breaches of it, and/or gigantic debts. Everton, Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday just to name three.

Norwich City, by significant contrast, has tried to live within the means of its pauper owners. That was an admirable aim and hardly indicative of any malaise. And the owners have come to the obvious conclusion that this model is no longer feasible. That someone with deeper pockets is needed.

You can argue, with a fair bit of justification, that this is a belated realisation. That naivety kept the club back and the switch should have been made earlier. And has now been forced on the owners. But that is to assume there was someone with deeper pockets who was also the right person some time ago. If the owners hadn’t decided to make the change, which has already included changes in the boardroom, and the likelihood of more to come, that that would indicate a malaise.

You can argue, also with a fair bit of justification, that there have been mistakes in the transfer market. I would agree, while in a partial defence of Webber say that the limited budget, the post-Brexit restrictions on just the kind of player we used to sign, and the conflicting aims of trying to stay in the Premier League and developing young talent all make his task hard. And even clubs with massive budgets and the pick of the world’s best players frequently get it wrong. But again that is hardly a sign that the club is rotten to the core. Only that mistakes get made.

None of this is to excuse this season’s presumptive failure to finish in the top six, or particularly recent performances, exemplified by the toothless and nondescript football that was on offer yesterday, from a team that looked as if it was playing in invisible zorb balloons. Fans are right to be angry about the low level of entertainment. I was going to say the zorb game at half-time was more entertaining than the match proper, but I see Ricardo beat me to it. It was a thoroughly dispiriting afternoon, but par for the recent course.

[Robert N. LiM 4,655]

Just now, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, you have no idea why the takeover by Attanasio – if there is indeed going to be one – hasn’t happened yet, and so no idea who, if anybody, is to blame. I would point out that it took Kroenke years to complete his takeover of Arsenal. And you have no idea whether anyone else has been turned down, let alone anyone richer than Attanasio, leaving aside the obvious point that richer doesn’t not necessarily equate to better. You don’t help your argument by throwing in unsubstantiated allegations.

Moving on, no, there is not a deep-seated malaise at Norwich City. I can think of a few clubs where that is true, in the sense of being a long-running basket-case. Clubs that have had a revolving door of owners, and/or multiple close shaves with financial fair play, or even breaches of it, and/or gigantic debts. Everton, Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday just to name three.

Norwich City, by significant contrast, has tried to live within the means of its pauper owners. That was an admirable aim and hardly indicative of any malaise. And the owners have come to the obvious conclusion that this model is no longer feasible. That someone with deeper pockets is needed.

You can argue, with a fair bit of justification, that this is a belated realisation. That naivety kept the club back and the switch should have been made earlier. And has now been forced on the owners. But that is to assume there was someone with deeper pockets who was also the right person some time ago. If the owners hadn’t decided to make the change, which has already included changes in the boardroom, and the likelihood of more to come, that that would indicate a malaise.

You can argue, also with a fair bit of justification, that there have been mistakes in the transfer market. I would agree, while in a partial defence of Webber say that the limited budget, the post-Brexit restrictions on just the kind of player we used to sign, and the conflicting aims of trying to stay in the Premier League and developing young talent all make his task hard. And even clubs with massive budgets and the pick of the world’s best players frequently get it wrong. But again that is hardly a sign that the club is rotten to the core. Only that mistakes get made.

None of this is to excuse this season’s presumptive failure to finish in the top six, or particularly recent performances, exemplified by the toothless and nondescript football that was on offer yesterday, from a team that looked as if it was playing in invisible zorb balloons. Fans are right to be angry about the low level of entertainment. I was going to say the zorb game at half-time was more entertaining than the match proper, but I see Ricardo beat me to it. It was a thoroughly dispiriting afternoon, but par for the recent course.

This is a disastrous post. Measured, informative and obviously 100% correct from top to bottom, it basically makes further discussion pointless. Might as well close the forum. Shame on you, @PurpleCanary

[Soldier on 172]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, you have no idea why the takeover by Attanasio – if there is indeed going to be one – hasn’t happened yet, and so no idea who, if anybody, is to blame. I would point out that it took Kroenke years to complete his takeover of Arsenal. And you have no idea whether anyone else has been turned down, let alone anyone richer than Attanasio, leaving aside the obvious point that richer doesn’t not necessarily equate to better. You don’t help your argument by throwing in unsubstantiated allegations.

Moving on, no, there is not a deep-seated malaise at Norwich City. I can think of a few clubs where that is true, in the sense of being a long-running basket-case. Clubs that have had a revolving door of owners, and/or multiple close shaves with financial fair play, or even breaches of it, and/or gigantic debts. Everton, Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday just to name three.

Norwich City, by significant contrast, has tried to live within the means of its pauper owners. That was an admirable aim and hardly indicative of any malaise. And the owners have come to the obvious conclusion that this model is no longer feasible. That someone with deeper pockets is needed.

You can argue, with a fair bit of justification, that this is a belated realisation. That naivety kept the club back and the switch should have been made earlier. And has now been forced on the owners. But that is to assume there was someone with deeper pockets who was also the right person some time ago. If the owners hadn’t decided to make the change, which has already included changes in the boardroom, and the likelihood of more to come, that that would indicate a malaise.

You can argue, also with a fair bit of justification, that there have been mistakes in the transfer market. I would agree, while in a partial defence of Webber say that the limited budget, the post-Brexit restrictions on just the kind of player we used to sign, and the conflicting aims of trying to stay in the Premier League and developing young talent all make his task hard. And even clubs with massive budgets and the pick of the world’s best players frequently get it wrong. But again that is hardly a sign that the club is rotten to the core. Only that mistakes get made.

None of this is to excuse this season’s presumptive failure to finish in the top six, or particularly recent performances, exemplified by the toothless and nondescript football that was on offer yesterday, from a team that looked as if it was playing in invisible zorb balloons. Fans are right to be angry about the low level of entertainment. I was going to say the zorb game at half-time was more entertaining than the match proper, but I see Ricardo beat me to it. It was a thoroughly dispiriting afternoon, but par for the recent course.

All fair points . I just think club comms are so bad and they do t help themselves by not articulating to the fans what is going on and what are the aspirations for the future. From Michael Bailey’s post match Q and A it would appear he remains on the naughty step.

[tsj1999 19]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, you have no idea why the takeover by Attanasio – if there is indeed going to be one – hasn’t happened yet, and so no idea who, if anybody, is to blame. I would point out that it took Kroenke years to complete his takeover of Arsenal. And you have no idea whether anyone else has been turned down, let alone anyone richer than Attanasio, leaving aside the obvious point that richer doesn’t not necessarily equate to better. You don’t help your argument by throwing in unsubstantiated allegations.

Moving on, no, there is not a deep-seated malaise at Norwich City. I can think of a few clubs where that is true, in the sense of being a long-running basket-case. Clubs that have had a revolving door of owners, and/or multiple close shaves with financial fair play, or even breaches of it, and/or gigantic debts. Everton, Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday just to name three.

Norwich City, by significant contrast, has tried to live within the means of its pauper owners. That was an admirable aim and hardly indicative of any malaise. And the owners have come to the obvious conclusion that this model is no longer feasible. That someone with deeper pockets is needed.

You can argue, with a fair bit of justification, that this is a belated realisation. That naivety kept the club back and the switch should have been made earlier. And has now been forced on the owners. But that is to assume there was someone with deeper pockets who was also the right person some time ago. If the owners hadn’t decided to make the change, which has already included changes in the boardroom, and the likelihood of more to come, that that would indicate a malaise.

You can argue, also with a fair bit of justification, that there have been mistakes in the transfer market. I would agree, while in a partial defence of Webber say that the limited budget, the post-Brexit restrictions on just the kind of player we used to sign, and the conflicting aims of trying to stay in the Premier League and developing young talent all make his task hard. And even clubs with massive budgets and the pick of the world’s best players frequently get it wrong. But again that is hardly a sign that the club is rotten to the core. Only that mistakes get made.

None of this is to excuse this season’s presumptive failure to finish in the top six, or particularly recent performances, exemplified by the toothless and nondescript football that was on offer yesterday, from a team that looked as if it was playing in invisible zorb balloons. Fans are right to be angry about the low level of entertainment. I was going to say the zorb game at half-time was more entertaining than the match proper, but I see Ricardo beat me to it. It was a thoroughly dispiriting afternoon, but par for the recent course.

burnley turned there team around in less than  ayear why cant we?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Simple fact is, clubs at our level very rarely create dynasties. We have had a fair crack at achieving it, but at the moment it looks like a bit of time outside the top 26. Even if there is money to spend in the summer from the last of the parachute money, we look thin on the ground in respect to the academy and current roster.

If we could unearth the type of players that started the revival a dozen years ago, then I would feel more confident. The recent overseas recruitment has not achieved what was expected.

[repman 640]

From a purely player based perspective, the best time to do a rebuild would've been after our first relegation, we had a good group of young players and the older players had performed well but if they aren't up to scratch at 28 years old they probably won't be when they're 30 either. This would've meant building the squad around Aarons, Buendia, Cantwell and the others. Unfortunately for us we were hit with the pandemic, which hit us with a well reported financial black hole, that meant promotion back to the PL was much more necessary than before. Hence the signings of players like Gibson and Hugill, known quantities who would help us achieve success. 

This season while the chance remains we can get promoted it seems more unlikely with each passing game. Until it does become impossible it seems like the club is hesitant to go into full rebuild mode. We started with 4  30+ outfield players yesterday, that's the sign of a manager and club who are still prioritising the short term when realistically any future success is going to come in the medium to long term.

 

[JuanVelasco 27]

12 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Where's @TeemuVanBasten when tou need him ?

Just asked him, he's playing Sim City 4 Deluxe until 24th April.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

Just now, JuanVelasco said:

Just asked him, he's playing Sim City 4 Deluxe until 24th April.

If i knew what that was I'd  commiserate/ congratulate as appropriate.  Not Simp City then ? 😉

[baldy09 163]

23 hours ago, Beetley Yellow said:

Too many influential people at the Club are too comfortable. Mediocrity is becoming accepted in many areas. A ‘90%’ commitment attitude tends to result in such.

Could you say that of the fans too- are they to ready to accept this too