Is being a yo yo club really that bad?

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Our wage bill and transfer spend will be broadly the same as the other promoted teams. Players of definite Premier league ability will not chose to go to a newly-promoted club unless there were no "better" options available.

It's why most promoted teams are relegated in Year 1 and of those that stay up a lot of them are relegated in Year 2.

Our wage bill this year is 5 million a year less than Brentford and 11 million a year less than Watford. Sissoko at Watford is on £80’000 a week 🤯 we can not compete with clubs offering those wages. 

[Mason 47 1,398]

I've come to the point of view that we're a yo-yo club because that's where the current divide in the league is. 

For the past 3 years we've established ourselves as the 20th/21st best team in the country pretty solidly (but every other season that isn't a good thing).

The funny thing about this sort of compounding progression is it tends to appear no progress has been made for ages, then a sudden leap forward happens. This season was a ****-up for sure, but so long as we stick to the script for next year we should still be in a position to grow.

[Badger 2,412]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Our wage bill this year is 5 million a year less than Brentford and 11 million a year less than Watford. Sissoko at Watford is on £80’000 a week 🤯 we can not compete with clubs offering those wages.

I don't know where you got the figures about our wages compared to Brentford and Watford from but they are almost certainly wrong. We will be spending more than Brentford and similar to Watford.

I have heard the figure you quoted for Sissoko, but obviously don't know if it's correct. It would be at the top end of Watford's wage budget. If some posters are to be believed we are paying more than this for Kabak + Normann (loan fee + wages) which suggests we could afford it but chose not to.

TBH, I'd have had Sissoko over Normann but not sure it was ever given a thought - he's 32 + probably didn't even have to move home to play for Watford. Anyway, it doesn't seem to have done them much good - they are the first side in Premier league history to lose 11 games in a row!

It's interesting on the Watford message boards - "Is this the worst season ever" thread + they are looking for a new investor too 😉

We’ve spoken on here how they don’t have enough cash to compete with the PL billionaires’ club but they could use an outside investor in the Championship too.

It will be interesting to see how they get on next year. They are already c£135 million in debt and have paid c12 million in interest in the last 2 years. It's not a problem when you have parachute payments of PL money but they will be in a far weaker state if they don't go straight  back up than we will.

[Mengo 825]

Read these views from Richard 🔑 s

https://insidefutbol.com/2022/05/02/good-norwich-down-hope-watford-go-too-and-neither-come-back-richard-keys/557832/

 

That’s six times now – and four straight after a PL season.

“They are the best argument I can think of for getting rid of parachute payments.

“I hope Watford go as well and that neither makes it back.

 

“It’s someone else’s turn.”

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mengo

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

I don't know where you got the figures about our wages compared to Brentford and Watford from but they are almost certainly wrong. We will be spending more than Brentford and similar to Watford.

I have heard the figure you quoted for Sissoko, but obviously don't know if it's correct. It would be at the top end of Watford's wage budget. If some posters are to be believed we are paying more than this for Kabak + Normann (loan fee + wages) which suggests we could afford it but chose not to.

TBH, I'd have had Sissoko over Normann but not sure it was ever given a thought - he's 32 + probably didn't even have to move home to play for Watford. Anyway, it doesn't seem to have done them much good - they are the first side in Premier league history to lose 11 games in a row!

It's interesting on the Watford message boards - "Is this the worst season ever" thread + they are looking for a new investor too 😉

We’ve spoken on here how they don’t have enough cash to compete with the PL billionaires’ club but they could use an outside investor in the Championship too.

It will be interesting to see how they get on next year. They are already c£135 million in debt and have paid c12 million in interest in the last 2 years. It's not a problem when you have parachute payments of PL money but they will be in a far weaker state if they don't go straight  back up than we will.

I did a google search of premier leagues clubs wage bill which handily provided a website that listed them all in financial order. I’d assume it’s relatively easy to find out who earns what if you look in the right places. I’m not an expert in those matters . 

[mastoola 185]

Being a yoyo club is the best we will ever have with the owners we have.  Someone somewhere is doing a great job keeping us in this position. If you want better than this you need to look to the top and wonder if they can make a difference 

 

[daly 507]

Think with this set of players the Yo Yo is over

When a manager plays a left back at Centre half just shows how lost this club is. A disgusting affair by the Management with total disregard for fans

The local derby is one season away

[Duncan Edwards 2,262]

15 minutes ago, daly said:

The local derby is one season away

Bold. Please go further as I’m intrigued. What will the up/down/status quo be? Potentially we could swap divisions…

[AJ 1,224]

I’ve definitely preferred our championship seasons recently, but it’s easy to say that when you’re winning. The PL cameos have been good in parts but our lack of consistency is painful. 
 

well, I call it lack of consistency but actually we are consistently poor so maybe that’s not true. Maybe I should say “our freak results where we managed to not lose” were fun

Edited May 3, 2022 by AJ

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

12 hours ago, Mengo said:

Read these views from Richard 🔑 s

https://insidefutbol.com/2022/05/02/good-norwich-down-hope-watford-go-too-and-neither-come-back-richard-keys/557832/

 

That’s six times now – and four straight after a PL season.

“They are the best argument I can think of for getting rid of parachute payments.

“I hope Watford go as well and that neither makes it back.

 

“It’s someone else’s turn.”

Richard Keys is an idiot. The reason parachute payments are required is the ridiculous imbalance in finance between the top two divisions. That's not the fault of Watford, Norwich, WBA or Fulham. 

"It's someone else's turn".  Really?  Was he interviewed in the playground? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,593]

41 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Richard Keys is an idiot. The reason parachute payments are required is the ridiculous imbalance in finance between the top two divisions. That's not the fault of Watford, Norwich, WBA or Fulham. 

"It's someone else's turn".  Really?  Was he interviewed in the playground? 

More than that, but even for us trying to manage the club sustainably, our expenditure goes up hugely in the Premier League. We're just the most extreme example of what the Premier league has done to football, but the majority of newly promoted teams go straight down again; the PL takes the bulk of money and anyone outside of it has to function on a starvation diet.

If you get rid of parachute payments then the Premier League should send newly relegated team a complementary team of accountants to look after the newly relegated teams receivership and administration instead. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Mello Yello 2,302]

Richard Key's is very hairy....

....and that's about it.....

[rock bus 854]

Its bad  being a yo-yo when the string breaks and worryingly I think that may just have happened this year.

[daly 507]

10 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Bold. Please go further as I’m intrigued. What will the up/down/status quo be? Potentially we could swap divisions…

Think Ipswich will be in the mix next season nothing much coming up and only Derby coming down to be a threat 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,593]

1 hour ago, rock bus said:

Its bad  being a yo-yo when the string breaks and worryingly I think that may just have happened this year.

Someone says that every year we go down. The fact is that the gap between the Prem and Championship just keeps getting wider and wider. 

Sheffield United threw huge resources into staying up, stayed up, then went down the next season. Burnley have caught a break this season, but Everton, a relative powerhouse of the Premier League, are in trouble. Erstwhile giants like Newcastle aren't above relegation. Leeds will flirt with relegation every season. This is simply a massive step up, and getting harder every time. You simply can't stay up without a sugar mummy and daddy or some other big cash injection that nobody wants to put in, so stick with sustainability and enjoy the relative success we have as the best yoyo club in England. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Leaving aside the argument about parachute payments, we will face next season without the last of our jewels, Max Aarons. Unless AO and Rowe can have a champagne season, we appear to being running out of things to sell. So we may have to buy and if we don't get it right again we could find ourselves in the post Worthington era again.

Its easy to say we have done it before and I really hope we can do it again but the laws of probability don't always work in your favour.

Reverting to parachute payments, while I think they are unfair, we will have them and I hope to goodness we use them not to prop up ridiculous wages but bring in some decent talent. The self financing model has to be flexible enough to allow us some measure of borrowing or debt or it serves no purpose other than when we are successful.

[Nuff Said 5,176]

21 hours ago, shaunieboy77 said:

 We all love the first Yo but it would be nice if the second Yo wasn't so short lived.  

More of a yoyoooooooooooo? Kind of works in a Norfolk accent too.

[komakino 274]

23 hours ago, lake district canary said:

To my mind the biggest problem this season was trying to be something different. We all saw it - too many changes of personell this season, a change of formation, added to a nightmare fixture list and covid. A recipe for disaster.

If we had just accepted the way we play - ie farkeball - we may have still gone down, but we would have been playing our way, our identifiable and proven way of playing.  All we had to do was carry on - but try and play it better.

I was a bit mystified at the start of the season, losing so many personalities and players well versed in farkeball, that it seemed like we were trying to re-invent the wheel - in a situation where it was going to be very difficult to do that. If you are going to change players/formations the best time to do it is when you're not under so much pressure - and in this case we were trying to do it in the most pressurised situatiuon possible - the Premier League!

So if we had just carried on our way of doing things, we might have still gone down, but all done in a way that provided continuity and development. 

In short we were too ambitious for our own good.  Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be - and if that means yo yo-ing year on year, is that really so bad? 

"Too ambitious for our own good?" "Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be"

Imagine a child being told that? An appalling negative attitude.  

I can't believe that could ever be a change held against Norwich City, who really should be sponsored by the London Rubber Company. 

 

[Nuff Said 5,176]

9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Reverting to parachute payments, while I think they are unfair, we will have them and I hope to goodness we use them not to prop up ridiculous wages but bring in some decent talent. The self financing model has to be flexible enough to allow us some measure of borrowing or debt or it serves no purpose other than when we are successful.

It’s hard to do both isn’t it? Decent talent that is happy with low wages?

[hogesar 9,743]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Richard Keys is an idiot. The reason parachute payments are required is the ridiculous imbalance in finance between the top two divisions. That's not the fault of Watford, Norwich, WBA or Fulham. 

"It's someone else's turn".  Really?  Was he interviewed in the playground? 

He literally sells personalised videos online of him saying the same sexist comment that got him sacked from Sky.

The guys a total f*cking loser who'll do anything for attention / bit of cash.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

It’s hard to do both isn’t it? Decent talent that is happy with low wages?

The balance is to bring in players who are worth those wages. And Webber hasn't managed it at the highest level. So as much as Farke got blamed this season and was sacked we are prepared to keep someone who did exactly what DF did. Failed at the highest level. And he isn't going to be here much next season.

I could be nasty and say Webber has an obsession with players at German clubs or certainly a phobia about UK players. But that only works if you back it up with two or three home grown players for balance. And we have sold them unfortunately. We must look to AO, Idah and Rowe as minimum playing first team next season. Backed up by Mumba, MaCallum, Famewo and Martin.

Then the wage bill will have some justification should we be successful. A large wage bill and being successful is OK but where does it go the season after?

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

18 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The balance is to bring in players who are worth those wages. And Webber hasn't managed it at the highest level. So as much as Farke got blamed this season and was sacked we are prepared to keep someone who did exactly what DF did. Failed at the highest level. And he isn't going to be here much next season.

I could be nasty and say Webber has an obsession with players at German clubs or certainly a phobia about UK players. But that only works if you back it up with two or three home grown players for balance. And we have sold them unfortunately. We must look to AO, Idah and Rowe as minimum playing first team next season. Backed up by Mumba, MaCallum, Famewo and Martin.

Then the wage bill will have some justification should we be successful. A large wage bill and being successful is OK but where does it go the season after?

MaCullum has been out injured since October so we'll probably get him back. The latest in a long line 😂

[Midlands Yellow 4,076]

3 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Richard Key's is very hairy....

....and that's about it.....

He’s looking better these days. 

[lake district canary 4,545]

1 hour ago, komakino said:

"Too ambitious for our own good?" "Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be"

Imagine a child being told that? An appalling negative attitude.

Not negative in the slightest. Tell a child they can be what they want to be, but don't tell them they can be something they cannot be. 

[Badger 2,412]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sheffield United threw huge resources into staying up

Not really - their accounts showed that they spent £105.7 million (which will include staying up bonuses). By contrast, we spent £107.3 million and obviously this would have been more if they had stayed up - bonuses and other clauses. So we actually spent more and the gap would have been bigger if we had stayed up.

They did spend £7.7 million more on amortisation though.

[Badger 2,412]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You simply can't stay up without a sugar mummy and daddy or some other big cash injection that nobody wants to put in, so stick with sustainability and enjoy the relative success we have as the best yoyo club in England. 

I agree - we should concentrate on the things that we as a club can influence - possibly a more pragmatic and robust playing style?

The whole argument that the message board is having is all out-of-date anyway as it is highly likely that the new FFP rules (Profit and Sustainability) is going to limit wages and amortisation to (probably) 70% of turnover.

People are getting incredibly wound up over this when then system is changing in any case!

[Monty13 2,251]

On 02/05/2022 at 11:45, lake district canary said:

To my mind the biggest problem this season was trying to be something different. We all saw it - too many changes of personell this season, a change of formation, added to a nightmare fixture list and covid. A recipe for disaster.

If we had just accepted the way we play - ie farkeball - we may have still gone down, but we would have been playing our way, our identifiable and proven way of playing.  All we had to do was carry on - but try and play it better.

I was a bit mystified at the start of the season, losing so many personalities and players well versed in farkeball, that it seemed like we were trying to re-invent the wheel - in a situation where it was going to be very difficult to do that. If you are going to change players/formations the best time to do it is when you're not under so much pressure - and in this case we were trying to do it in the most pressurised situatiuon possible - the Premier League!

So if we had just carried on our way of doing things, we might have still gone down, but all done in a way that provided continuity and development. 

In short we were too ambitious for our own good.  Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be - and if that means yo yo-ing year on year, is that really so bad? 

Sorry hard disagree. I was with you roughly to this point.

The only acceptable thing about being a yo-yo club is each time you go up you’re looking to stay up. If that means changes to philosophy then so be it.

The mentality of accepting we aren’t good enough before we try is a big part of why we have failed so poorly.

[shefcanary 2,448]

54 minutes ago, Badger said:

Not really - their accounts showed that they spent £105.7 million (which will include staying up bonuses). By contrast, we spent £107.3 million and obviously this would have been more if they had stayed up - bonuses and other clauses. So we actually spent more and the gap would have been bigger if we had stayed up.

They did spend £7.7 million more on amortisation though.

Yes, the Blades had less than us, because their pauper Prince owner had no cash at all after being ostracosed by his family and their fortunes and they hadn't benefitted from parachute payments.  They basically used their forthcoming EPL income to finance their team building but really got through their first season because of no injuries and riding the wave of confidence from promotion.  The 2nd year, they had their fair share of injuries and the investment in the squad (again limited to EPL income) was as bad as ours this season.  God help them if they go up by the playoffs this season!

[horsefly 4,310]

18 hours ago, Mengo said:

Read these views from Richard 🔑 s

https://insidefutbol.com/2022/05/02/good-norwich-down-hope-watford-go-too-and-neither-come-back-richard-keys/557832/

 

That’s six times now – and four straight after a PL season.

“They are the best argument I can think of for getting rid of parachute payments.

“I hope Watford go as well and that neither makes it back.

 

“It’s someone else’s turn.”

The man who considers himself to be some sort of football expert says that "it's someone else's turn". Will look forward to his expert suggestions about how we should determine who else gets a turn once the points system is discarded.

Personally, I would like to see a system in sports broadcasting where proven racists and sexists never get a chance to air their opinions in public, and let decent intelligent individuals get their turn instead:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/228918/Now-Richard-Keys-is-accused-of-racism

While rehearsing for a Sky broadcast he referred to a black footballer, potential Scottish international David Johnson, as “Choco Jocko”.

The presenter, who quit his job at Sky over a sexist remark last month, did not realise he was live on a test channel.

[king canary 7,669]

The issue is you can't ask fans to write every other season off, while paying north of £500 a pop each season just because it makes the clubs balance sheets look nice.