So is Putin going to invade Ukraine anytime soon or..?

[Well b back 3,325]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

We used to..

Fairly sure the army have complained they don't have enough tanks, the air force don't have enough planes and the navy don't have enough anti-ship missiles...

Isn't Johnson on record saying the days of "tank battles in Europe" are long gone, from about 3-4 months ago?

He said it in November.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,161]

'kin hell, nukes, conscription, war in Europe, am I in a coma or something experiencing a nightmare? This is all so surreal. FWIW, if this does escalate and if we do end up at war any fighting will be utterly pointless, because one side will eventually start losing and will launch the nukes making everything everyone has ever fought and died for irrelevant, therefore  should we get to the stage conscription becomes utilized I will not be joining, they can stick a bullet in my head instead, aside from objecting due to futility I will not kill people because our elites and rulers can't decide where the lines on a map should be.

 

Can we also talk about how disgusting it is that if you just happen to have been born a certain gender and within a certain time window the expectation is that you will be forced to throw yourself into the meat grinder when the sh!1 hits the fan? Like if we as a race of people decided black women over the age of 60 will be forced to do something that could end up with them being killed or gravely wounded because otherwise they would be branded cowards in certain events I doubt everyone would be on board with that, I dunno, maybe it's just because im in the demographic of people who be forced to go out and act as human shields for the wealthy and elite in the face of bullets, rockets and grenades, but I find it pretty disgusting tbh, not just for me but for every other young man. 

[kirku 1,339]

Just now, Well b back said:

He said it in November.

Gets the big calls right, according to himself

[ricardo 7,448]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

We used to..

Fairly sure the army have complained they don't have enough tanks, the air force don't have enough planes and the navy don't have enough anti-ship missiles...

Isn't Johnson on record saying the days of "tank battles in Europe" are long gone, from about 3-4 months ago?

Far better things to spend money on than weapons, which is why we never have enough when they are needed.

Some things never change.

Armed forces are an expensive luxury....................until they become a neccesity.

And then its often too late.

Edited March 2, 2022 by ricardo

[1902 1,167]

23 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

'kin hell, nukes, conscription, war in Europe, am I in a coma or something experiencing a nightmare? This is all so surreal. FWIW, if this does escalate and if we do end up at war any fighting will be utterly pointless, because one side will eventually start losing and will launch the nukes making everything everyone has ever fought and died for irrelevant, therefore  should we get to the stage conscription becomes utilized I will not be joining, they can stick a bullet in my head instead, aside from objecting due to futility I will not kill people because our elites and rulers can't decide where the lines on a map should be.

 

Can we also talk about how disgusting it is that if you just happen to have been born a certain gender and within a certain time window the expectation is that you will be forced to throw yourself into the meat grinder when the sh!1 hits the fan? Like if we as a race of people decided black women over the age of 60 will be forced to do something that could end up with them being killed or gravely wounded because otherwise they would be branded cowards in certain events I doubt everyone would be on board with that, I dunno, maybe it's just because im in the demographic of people who be forced to go out and act as human shields for the wealthy and elite in the face of bullets, rockets and grenades, but I find it pretty disgusting tbh, not just for me but for every other young man. 

Yeah life isn't fair. As the people of Kharkiv will testify to. 

However the idea that it's just lines on a map is a rather simplistic idea of why a war is being fought.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,161]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Far better things to spend money on than weapons, which is why we never have enough when they are needed.

Some things never change.

Armed forces are an expensive luxury....................until they become a neccesity.

And then its often too late.

Any weapons or armed forces would be completely irrelevant and pointless in a war with Russia, the only purpose they could serve would be to delay the inevitable and prolong the misery, if we did engage Russia and our military kicked their ****, they'd just launch nukes which would render every strategic gain or individual act of bravery completely meaningless. Ground troops/tanks/guns are pointless in the modern era for a nation that only intends to defend instead of attack, they're as useful as knives and swords would have been in WW2. We're not all in this tight spot because we haven't spent enough on our militaries and if we had spent more it wouldn't have made a jot of difference, we're in this mess because humanity somehow always ends up with the worst of us leading us. But that is an impossible problem to solve, it has nothing to do with politics or anything it's a law of nature.

The best we could've ever done is just hope this never happened, but it has unfortunately. 

 

[ricardo 7,448]

3 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Any weapons or armed forces would be completely irrelevant and pointless in a war with Russia, the only purpose they could serve would be to delay the inevitable and prolong the misery, if we did engage Russia and our military kicked their ****, they'd just launch nukes which would render every strategic gain or individual act of bravery completely meaningless. Ground troops/tanks/guns are pointless in the modern era for a nation that only intends to defend instead of attack, they're as useful as knives and swords would have been in WW2. We're not all in this tight spot because we haven't spent enough on our militaries and if we had spent more it wouldn't have made a jot of difference, we're in this mess because humanity somehow always ends up with the worst of us leading us. But that is an impossible problem to solve, it has nothing to do with politics or anything it's a law of nature.

The best we could've ever done is just hope this never happened, but it has unfortunately. 

 

What do you think would happen if we didn't have conventional weapons?

If all you had was nuclear weapons then the only choice you have when confronting an agressor is

1. Accept defeat

2. Blow up the world

The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has worked.

So far.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,161]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

What do you think would happen if we didn't have conventional weapons?

If all you had was nuclear weapons then the only choice you have when confronting an agressor is

1. Accept defeat

2. Blow up the world

The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has worked.

So far.

I don't think it would make any difference in this scenario or any other we were likely to face when confronting an aggressive nuclear power. So we confront this aggressor with conventional weapons and as would probably be quite likely based on our history we'd start winning...Okay great! Then what? The mad dictator accepts defeat and graciously stands aside? Nah, he activates the kill switch because he will feel that there is no other alternative and then it's bye bye world (the pointless prolonging the inevitable I was talking about) so we lose. 

Or he beats us in conventional warfare and we are then powerless to confront the aggressor, again we lose. 

Troop numbers, training or what weapons and vehicles we have are completely irreverent in a discussion such as this when you think beyond the short term. The only thing that would have any say in the matter is our nuclear deterrent, so the question has to be asked why bother with maintaining a fighting force?  Unless we're planning on picking a fight with another non-nuclear country but why would we do that? 

The key to victory in a situation like this was stopping it happening in the first place, but regardless of whether that was even possible or not is moot by this point, it's happened and now that's it's happened we're talking either letting a mad man kill and conquer Eastern Europe or declare war which will inevitably lead to a nuclear exchange so i fail to see how any conventional weaponry or the size of our army would play any factor here?

 

[sonyc 5,542]

18 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Amid of this horror it should not be forgotten how Trump’s manoeuvrings over Ukraine deliberately undermined Zelensky and his government and equally deliberately boosted Putin, to the  cost of the US and western democracy. Johnson is a lying charlatan but Trump committed treason.

Quite. You are 24 hours ahead Purple too of this piece in today's papers.

Maybe one day we might get to know about Brexit interference.

 

Full link provided.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/time-to-confront-trump-putin-network

And an extract from it here:

Of course the most striking role of the Russian government in the 2016 US election was its many, many ties with the Trump campaign, including with Trump himself, who spent the campaign and the four years of his presidency groveling before Putin, denying the reality of Russian interference, and changing first the Republican platform and then US policy to serve Putin’s agendas. This included cutting support for Ukraine against Russia out of the Republican platform when he won the primary, considerable animosity toward Nato, and ultimately trying to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in 2019 by withholding military aid while demanding he offer confirmation of a Russian conspiracy theory blaming Ukraine rather than Russia for 2016 election interference.

A stunning number of Trump’s closest associates had deep ties to the Russian government. They included Paul Manafort, who during his years in Ukraine worked to build Russian influence there and served as a consultant to the Kremlin-backed Ukrainian president who was driven out of the country – and into Russia by popular protest in 2014 (the Russian line is that this was an illegitimate coup and thus a justification for invasion is still widely repeated). Manafort was, during his time in the campaign, sharing data with Russian intelligence agent Konstantin V Kilimnik, while campaign advisor Jeff Sessions was sharing information with the Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak. Manafort, Donald Trump Jr and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner held an illegal meeting in Trump Tower with a Kremlin-linked lawyer on June 9, 2016, where they were promised damaging material on the Clinton campaign.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

'kin hell, nukes, conscription, war in Europe, am I in a coma or something experiencing a nightmare? This is all so surreal. FWIW, if this does escalate and if we do end up at war any fighting will be utterly pointless, because one side will eventually start losing and will launch the nukes making everything everyone has ever fought and died for irrelevant, therefore  should we get to the stage conscription becomes utilized I will not be joining, they can stick a bullet in my head instead, aside from objecting due to futility I will not kill people because our elites and rulers can't decide where the lines on a map should be.

 

Can we also talk about how disgusting it is that if you just happen to have been born a certain gender and within a certain time window the expectation is that you will be forced to throw yourself into the meat grinder when the sh!1 hits the fan? Like if we as a race of people decided black women over the age of 60 will be forced to do something that could end up with them being killed or gravely wounded because otherwise they would be branded cowards in certain events I doubt everyone would be on board with that, I dunno, maybe it's just because im in the demographic of people who be forced to go out and act as human shields for the wealthy and elite in the face of bullets, rockets and grenades, but I find it pretty disgusting tbh, not just for me but for every other young man. 

It's all very simple. If you get called up then you go and do your duty. Your father and grandfather and others in your family line did their duty which allows you to be here now, and now its your turn. In your case Christoph you are lucky in that other brave souls have chosen to serve in a professional army so that you don't have to. And this particular conflict means you very probably won't be called up to do your duty. But spare a thought to the young men and women of Ukraine who are prepared to give up their lives so that others can live in freedom. I'm retired now. I wish I were younger because I would love to go out there and fight for the Ukrainians.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

There is not going to be a ground war involving our military. And there will not be conscription or guerilla warfare on the streets of Norwich.

The Ukraine is getting support by intelligence, sanctions and armaments. But that is as far as it goes. The fight is their fight. No country is going to help them any other way.

[Haus 260]

22 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There is not going to be a ground war involving our military. And there will not be conscription or guerilla warfare on the streets of Norwich.

The Ukraine is getting support by intelligence, sanctions and armaments. But that is as far as it goes. The fight is their fight. No country is going to help them any other way.

What happens when this spills over into Moldova ? 

or Finland, at what point do we get involved.. There is a real danger of this escalating and a World War happening.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,095]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's all very simple. If you get called up then you go and do your duty. Your father and grandfather and others in your family line did their duty which allows you to be here now, and now its your turn. In your case Christoph you are lucky in that other brave souls have chosen to serve in a professional army so that you don't have to. And this particular conflict means you very probably won't be called up to do your duty. But spare a thought to the young men and women of Ukraine who are prepared to give up their lives so that others can live in freedom. I'm retired now. I wish I were younger because I would love to go out there and fight for the Ukrainians.

I'd bloody love to go out there... course you would. What a melt. I'm sure Zelenskyy won't turn you away coz of a few wrinkles and free bus pass. Sign away grandpa.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Worthy Nigelton

[Mello Yello 2,320]

There are those 'Military Experts' and 'Armchair Generals' that think the AK47 should be dualled all the way from Lowestoft to Peterborough.....and beyond....

[Indy 3,352]

Choose your fight wisely, my grandad in Czech Rep used to say, Vlad isn’t a spring chicken and had Ukraine been more patient in voicing their desire to join EU and NATO, waited till his reign was over and hopefully a new younger regime with more tolerance was in place then this might not have happened.

After this invasion, the balls up it has been and the hardship now facing Russia, I’m not sure Putin or his generals will have the desire to take the fight any further. They’ve got a challenge just winning this war!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Haus said:

What happens when this spills over into Moldova ? 

or Finland, at what point do we get involved.. There is a real danger of this escalating and a World War happening.

Who says it will spill over into anywhere else? All the other countries are in NATO so if he wanted to make a fuss he would have done so.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,161]

2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's all very simple. If you get called up then you go and do your duty. Your father and grandfather and others in your family line did their duty which allows you to be here now, and now its your turn. In your case Christoph you are lucky in that other brave souls have chosen to serve in a professional army so that you don't have to. And this particular conflict means you very probably won't be called up to do your duty. But spare a thought to the young men and women of Ukraine who are prepared to give up their lives so that others can live in freedom. I'm retired now. I wish I were younger because I would love to go out there and fight for the Ukrainians.

Absolute rubbish. "I would but luckily for me I'm too old, so i can talk sh!1 because it doesn't apply to me, you go throw yourself into the incomparable horror or war, maybe get killed or wounded to the point you're a dribbling vegetable because you were born a certain gender and in a certain time period."

No. Fu(k that with bells on. Then you get predictable sheep people like you drone on about duty and honor as to justify the orchestration of the murder of so many young men though war, that POV is despicable in my moral view of things. We are all people, none better or more important than the other, none more or less deserving of any kind of fate because of the circumstances around our birth, the idea that if the world truly descended into hell that people of a certain gender and age group would be forced to go suffer unimaginable horror while the rest sat at home is disgusting to me.

 

I'm angry about this not because I think there's any realistic chance of conscription, it's because I despise discrimination in any form, I despise how we separate people into order of importance, I despise toxic masculinity and how we think men should be men and anyone who doesn't want to kill another human is some kind of coward by now doing his 'duty' etc. It's all absolute fu(k1ng nonsense and a way of thinking that should be confined to the scrap heap of the dark days of history where it belongs,

People had to do what we did in the past because it was the stupid ages. We're better than that now, i truly believe that despise many still holding antiquated views. Fu(k1ng conscription! How laughable is it that that's an idea that isn't roundly ridiculed and laughed off an an unfortunate consequence of the ignorance of history like public executions or witch burnings? It's insane to me.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[ricardo 7,448]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

There is not going to be a ground war involving our military. And there will not be conscription or guerilla warfare on the streets of Norwich.

 

Saturday nights will be quiet then.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,095]

9 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Absolute rubbish. "I would but luckily for me I'm too old, so i can talk sh!1 because it doesn't apply to me, you go throw yourself into the incomparable horror or war, maybe get killed or wounded to the point you're a dribbling vegetable because you were born a certain gender and in a certain time period."

No. Fu(k that with bells on. Then you get predictable sheep people like you drone on about duty and honor as to justify the orchestration of the murder of so many young men though war, that POV is despicable in my moral view of things. We are all people, none better or more important than the other, none more or less deserving of any kind of fate because of the circumstances around our birth, the idea that if the world truly descended into hell that people of a certain gender and age group would be forced to go suffer unimaginable horror while the rest sat at home is disgusting to me.

 

I'm angry about this not because I think there's any realistic chance of conscription, it's because I despise discrimination in any form, I despise how we separate people into order of importance, I despise toxic masculinity and how we think men should be men and anyone who doesn't want to kill another human is some kind of coward by now doing his 'duty' etc. It's all absolute fu(k1ng nonsense and a way of thinking that should be confined to the scrap heap of the dark days of history where it belongs,

People had to do what we did in the past because it was the stupid ages. We're better than that now, i truly believe that despise many still holding antiquated views. Fu(k1ng conscription! How laughable is it that that's an idea that isn't roundly ridiculed and laughed off an an unfortunate consequence of the ignorance of history like public executions of witch burnings? It's insane to me.

There's no point arguing with him. If he is genuine, he should sign up. I am 100% certain the Ukrainian people would not turn him away because he is too old. Sign up. Do it @Rock The Boat show us all what youre made of and you will have my eternal respect.

[1902 1,167]

9 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Absolute rubbish. "I would but luckily for me I'm too old, so i can talk sh!1 because it doesn't apply to me, you go throw yourself into the incomparable horror or war, maybe get killed or wounded to the point you're a dribbling vegetable because you were born a certain gender and in a certain time period."

No. Fu(k that with bells on. Then you get predictable sheep people like you drone on about duty and honor as to justify the orchestration of the murder of so many young men though war, that POV is despicable in my moral view of things. We are all people, none better or more important than the other, none more or less deserving of any kind of fate because of the circumstances around our birth, the idea that if the world truly descended into hell that people of a certain gender and age group would be forced to go suffer unimaginable horror while the rest sat at home is disgusting to me.

 

I'm angry about this not because I think there's any realistic chance of conscription, it's because I despise discrimination in any form, I despise how we separate people into order of importance, I despise toxic masculinity and how we think men should be men and anyone who doesn't want to kill another human is some kind of coward by now doing his 'duty' etc. It's all absolute fu(k1ng nonsense and a way of thinking that should be confined to the scrap heap of the dark days of history where it belongs,

People had to do what we did in the past because it was the stupid ages. We're better than that now, i truly believe that despise many still holding antiquated views. Fu(k1ng conscription! How laughable is it that that's an idea that isn't roundly ridiculed and laughed off an an unfortunate consequence of the ignorance of history like public executions or witch burnings? It's insane to me.

"Were better than that now"

Except we aren't, human beings continue to be the same, men like Vladimir Putin keep appearing who want to force their will on the world. 

Thankfully some people do not feel that they should be allowed to do so and recognise that unfortunately that means force. That isn't toxic masculinity, that's a sad reality about our world.

I have no desire to go to war, no desire to join the army and fight any of the multitude of stupid expeditionary wars our government's commit us too. However if there's an existential threat to our way of life or that of those countries we made a commitment to defend then that would be a bit of a different matter.

As an aside, If there is conscription, it will almost certainly be of both men and women (in the style of Israel). 

[ricardo 7,448]

12 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

People had to do what we did in the past because it was the stupid ages. We're better than that now, i truly believe that despise many still holding antiquated views. Fu(k1ng conscription! How laughable is it that that's an idea that isn't roundly ridiculed and laughed off an an unfortunate consequence of the ignorance of history like public executions of witch burnings? It's insane to me.

A very admirable and civilised way to look at things when the troubles are far away but when push comes to shove, and its your home thats getting bombed, and your wife and family getting slaughtered I expect you, like everyone else will sing a different tune.

[ricardo 7,448]

3 minutes ago, 1902 said:

"Were better than that now"

Except we aren't, human beings continue to be the same, men like Vladimir Putin keep appearing who want to force their will on the world. 

 

Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach.

Joseph Stalin

[sonyc 5,542]

12 minutes ago, ricardo said:

A very admirable and civilised way to look at things when the troubles are far away but when push comes to shove, and its your home thats getting bombed, and your wife and family getting slaughtered I expect you, like everyone else will sing a different tune.

That's the thing isn't it? It feels like it could come to pass that many Ukrainians will never be able to go back 'home' again - either because there isn't a city to go back to or your house no longer exists or there is a wholly new regime in place. It brings to mind just how welcoming we have been in the UK in the past - I should say 'comparatively by way of qualification. Up where I live there is still a sizeable Ukrainian community for example when thousands settled here after WW2 from about 1945, refugees of war. The community (like so many in Bradford from eastern Europe) integrated well.

It is an interesting thought when it comes to conscription - in a way - the older you are (and let's face it, closer to the end of your days) then you've literally less living days to lose whereas younger men and women have their lives ahead. I could see that if war came closer to home then I would be far more willing to fight the fight (if I was up to it physically) and I could envisage a preference that way than stand by and try to tolerate my sons going to war. I can't imagine the pain of that when I think about.

Those news stories tonight of mothers with young children with absent dads going back to the frontline just breaks your heart. You wonder of course if they are ever going to get back.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

45 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Absolute rubbish. "I would but luckily for me I'm too old, so i can talk sh!1 because it doesn't apply to me, you go throw yourself into the incomparable horror or war, maybe get killed or wounded to the point you're a dribbling vegetable because you were born a certain gender and in a certain time period."

No. Fu(k that with bells on. Then you get predictable sheep people like you drone on about duty and honor as to justify the orchestration of the murder of so many young men though war, that POV is despicable in my moral view of things. We are all people, none better or more important than the other, none more or less deserving of any kind of fate because of the circumstances around our birth, the idea that if the world truly descended into hell that people of a certain gender and age group would be forced to go suffer unimaginable horror while the rest sat at home is disgusting to me.

 

I'm angry about this not because I think there's any realistic chance of conscription, it's because I despise discrimination in any form, I despise how we separate people into order of importance, I despise toxic masculinity and how we think men should be men and anyone who doesn't want to kill another human is some kind of coward by now doing his 'duty' etc. It's all absolute fu(k1ng nonsense and a way of thinking that should be confined to the scrap heap of the dark days of history where it belongs,

People had to do what we did in the past because it was the stupid ages. We're better than that now, i truly believe that despise many still holding antiquated views. Fu(k1ng conscription! How laughable is it that that's an idea that isn't roundly ridiculed and laughed off an an unfortunate consequence of the ignorance of history like public executions or witch burnings? It's insane to me.

If this is really what you think then you are weak, spineless and lacking in resilience. I imagine you enjoyed the lockdown.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Who says it will spill over into anywhere else? All the other countries are in NATO so if he wanted to make a fuss he would have done so.

Absolutely this

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

14 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

If this is really what you think then you are weak, spineless and lacking in resilience. I imagine you enjoyed the lockdown.

Someone lacking in resilience probably wouldn’t have enjoyed or gotten through the lockdown. Nonsense from you yet again.

[Virtual reality 761]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's all very simple. If you get called up then you go and do your duty. Your father and grandfather and others in your family line did their duty which allows you to be here now, and now its your turn. In your case Christoph you are lucky in that other brave souls have chosen to serve in a professional army so that you don't have to. And this particular conflict means you very probably won't be called up to do your duty. But spare a thought to the young men and women of Ukraine who are prepared to give up their lives so that others can live in freedom. I'm retired now. I wish I were younger because I would love to go out there and fight for the Ukrainians.

Off you trot then, I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms. You crack on with it 👍

[kick it off 1,962]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Who says it will spill over into anywhere else? All the other countries are in NATO so if he wanted to make a fuss he would have done so.

Well KG, that rather depends if you believe Putin is telling the truth about his motive. Personally, given some of the stuff he's said over recent years about Ukraine not being a real country etc, and Putin's general lack of truth, I would reckon on it being more to be about legacy and empire building than any real concerns about Ukraine joining nato.

After all, presume Russia takes Ukraine, that leaves the New Russian superstate bordering Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania... all members of nato. Not wanting nato on his doorstep doesn't really stack up as a logical argument.

Edited March 2, 2022 by kick it off

[Van wink 2,994]

12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Well KG, that rather depends if you believe Putin is telling the truth about his motive. Personally, given some of the stuff he's said over recent years about Ukraine not being a real country etc, and Putin's general lack of truth, I would reckon on it being more to be about legacy and empire building than any real concerns about Ukraine joining nato.

After all, presume Russia takes Ukraine, that leaves the New Russian superstate bordering Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania... all members of nato. Not wanting nato on his doorstep doesn't really stack up as a logical argument.

IMO if they “take Ukrain” it will be a thorn in Putins side for the rest of his political life, a drain on economic and military resources to keep control, and a drain on political capacity as well.All he wants is to insert a puppet regime which will doff its cap and carry on. I don’t believe that in light of the way this has panned out he will have any further desire to take more territory.

[KernowCanary 214]

EA have now withdrawn all Russian teams from their FIFA 22 game.