Chucking kids on that aren’t ready is poor management.

[The Real Buh 3,765]

Change my mind, I’m right.

You Chuck a kid on that you know isn’t ready for a “punchers chance” and you are a bad manager. 
 

when they are ready they’ll get a chance. Right now it’s them on the bench or a totally empty bench, the former looks better.

[chicken 3,081]

3 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Right now it’s them on the bench or a totally empty bench, the former looks better.

Just a correction to that, I believe you can't start a game now without at least 'x' many players on the bench.

Also, it's been two games, last week they were training mainly with the U23's until they were needed and then started training with the first team. This is their first full week with the first team.

When people mention Aarons, I believe he had been training with the first team for some time before being started against Ipswich.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

There's a balance to be struck. 

Like I said in the match thread, I fully trust Farke. This is a man who has thrown in numerous youngsters at a time when he didn't need to as there were senior players available because he thought they were ready, and he was proved right every time. If he feels these boys aren't ready, then I'm fine with that.

But after seeing Stiepermann toil up front for 150 minutes in these last two games and achieve the square root of **** all, surely a 'not quite ready' but extremely hungry and lively Omotoye coming off the bench would have offered more? 

[KeiranShikari 1,524]

Agreed.

 

Although I'd still have put one of the two strikers on 15 minutes earlier today.

[The Real Buh 3,765]

2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

There's a balance to be struck. 

Like I said in the match thread, I fully trust Farke. This is a man who has thrown in numerous youngsters at a time when he didn't need to as there were senior players available because he thought they were ready, and he was proved right every time. If he feels these boys aren't ready, then I'm fine with that.

But after seeing Stiepermann toil up front for 150 minutes in these last two games and achieve the square root of **** all, surely a 'not quite ready' but extremely hungry and lively Omotoye coming off the bench would have offered more? 

Omotoye was an injury doubt as well apparently. I really like to see youth coming through, I love our academy but it has to be done right. Steipermann was awful but hopefully we won’t have to see that again come saturday

[Jim Smith 2,608]

What aren’t they ready for? He brought Omotoye on when the game was basically over?

could he really not bring him on with 20 minutes to go to give him a chance to do something? Stiepermann was again having a bit of a shocker. I fail to see how Omotoye could have been less effective or what real damage could have been done by giving him 20 - 25 minutes. For me is absolutely obvious that for these two games we’ve missed someone making the sort of runs strikers make out of instinct. 

[Ken Hairy 4,272]

5 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

There's a balance to be struck. 

Like I said in the match thread, I fully trust Farke. This is a man who has thrown in numerous youngsters at a time when he didn't need to as there were senior players available because he thought they were ready, and he was proved right every time. If he feels these boys aren't ready, then I'm fine with that.

But after seeing Stiepermann toil up front for 150 minutes in these last two games and achieve the square root of **** all, surely a 'not quite ready' but extremely hungry and lively Omotoye coming off the bench would have offered more? 

100% this. 

[The Real Buh 3,765]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

What aren’t they ready for? He brought Omotoye on when the game was basically over?

could he really not bring him on with 20 minutes to go to give him a chance to do something? Stiepermann was again having a bit of a shocker. I fail to see how Omotoye could have been less effective or what real damage could have been done by giving him 20 - 25 minutes. For me is absolutely obvious that for these two games we’ve missed someone making the sort of runs strikers make out of instinct. 

Farke has brought through loads of young players so I’ll trust him on this one ☝️ 

[ricardo 8,033]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

What aren’t they ready for? He brought Omotoye on when the game was basically over?

could he really not bring him on with 20 minutes to go to give him a chance to do something? Stiepermann was again having a bit of a shocker. I fail to see how Omotoye could have been less effective or what real damage could have been done by giving him 20 - 25 minutes. For me is absolutely obvious that for these two games we’ve missed someone making the sort of runs strikers make out of instinct. 

Agreed. If they are good enough then they are old enough. The boy should have had 15 minutes, the damage was already done. You can't  play without a front man and it looked like we didnt have one at any stage,

[curious yellow 184]

The young players are in a good position because nobody will expect anything from them. 

Even if they just run around and make a nuisance of themselves, they are doing a good job. We need the extra energy--Coventry proved this at the weekend by using all of their subs and finishing stronger. 

Omotoye is definitely good enough to feature for much longer, he seems to have a natural striker's awareness. 

Equally it could be called very poor management to have experienced players available and not select them. 

We need to do one thing or the other. 

[Ian 1,210]

15 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Agreed. If they are good enough then they are old enough. The boy should have had 15 minutes, the damage was already done. You can't  play without a front man and it looked like we didnt have one at any stage,

Fully respect your opinion Ricardo. However, I believe that if Farke had any inkling Omotoye was fit enough, and had the ability to make an impact away at Luton, there is not a hope in hell he would have played a winger up front for 90% of the match.

 

[Alex Moss 2,167]

Fortunately Pukki should be back Saturday, but if not, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Farke surprised everyone and started Omotoye up front against Wednesday now the kids had a taste.

[Yellowhammer 95]

I can’t understand why when you are 3-1 down why you don’t bring on subs whatever their age in my mind what harm can it do they are young and fit just nothing to lose really and if they scored what a great memory they would have to look back on 

[Alex Moss 2,167]

34 minutes ago, Yellowhammer said:

I can’t understand why when you are 3-1 down why you don’t bring on subs whatever their age in my mind what harm can it do they are young and fit just nothing to lose really and if they scored what a great memory they would have to look back on 

I hear what you’re saying there, Yellowhammer. One thing we know with Daniel is he does everything for a reason - and given the chance, he will always explain his decisions. So my feeling on Saturday was he didn’t feel for whatever reason that they were quite ready. And obviously, with the injuries the way they are, he had to at least name someone for the subs bench. We now know Max is an incredibly mature lad for his age, and Farke had no doubt about him - in fact, so much so, that he had no worries about giving him a debut in our most intense fixture in football, and away from home at that. I’m pretty certain I’ve heard Farke say in the past that you can actually do more harm than good sometimes by pushing one of the youth a step too far. So, Tyrese has now had a little taste, and should Pukki not be ready for Saturday, I have a feeling he may just surprise everyone and start him. Conversely, we also know that Daniel likes to play a player into goals, which could be the reason he is showing Marco that he is giving himself every chance to adapt to his new, albeit temporary, role in the team. We saw this with Teemu last season. He was out of form, carrying an injury, and looking low in confidence. But I think Farke wanted to show him that his belief remained and that he’d never get back into the groove sat on the subs bench. But back to my original point, he obviously is bedding Tyrese etc in carefully. He’s had a little taste now, and who knows, Daniel may surprise us all on Saturday if Teemu isn’t quite there, especially if Marco has to fill Emi’s position as Emi was clearly taken off for precautionary measures. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Alex Moss
*were

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

Bet the kid was buzzing to get on and make his professional debut.

Did you know that even if he never plays a professional game again, that single appearance gets him a wikipedia entry? When you see these random non-league players with all their Haringey United stats etc, its because they played at least one professional game in a recognised professional league. 

Wasn't on long enough to lead to any dent in confidence. Bet his mates and parent are buzzing. 

The kids on the bench get a taste of what first team football is about and the pressure associated, get to spend some time around the senior pros.

I don't see the problem with it at all when its the bench. I hope it will inspire them to try and force their way onto that bench in the near future even when we've got a few senior pros back from injury.

If there is anything to be angry about it is us not having a 2nd choice keeper with a degree of quality, and I do wonder whether it should actually be Emi up front and Vrancic trying to feed him through balls. 

[Alex Moss 2,167]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Bet the kid was buzzing to get on and make his professional debut.

Did you know that even if he never plays a professional game again, that single appearance gets him a wikipedia entry? When you see these random non-league players with all their Haringey United stats etc, its because they played at least one professional game in a recognised professional league. 

Wasn't on long enough to lead to any dent in confidence. Bet his mates and parent are buzzing. 

The kids on the bench get a taste of what first team football is about and the pressure associated, get to spend some time around the senior pros.

I don't see the problem with it at all when its the bench. I hope it will inspire them to try and force their way onto that bench in the near future even when we've got a few senior pros back from injury.

If there is anything to be angry about it is us not having a 2nd choice keeper with a degree of quality, and I do wonder whether it should actually be Emi up front and Vrancic trying to feed him through balls. 

Probably the first player to play for us in recent times that earns about £200 a week too, Teemu! (The wage is a complete guess because I have absolutely no idea what a nipper gets paid at City!).

[Feedthewolf 5,885]

Omotoye has already scored a hat-trick against a professional EFL club this season, without the quality around him that he'd have in the first team. Completely trust Farke's judgement, but I am slightly surprised he doesn't consider him ready for more of a stint when we're playing without any form of striker for almost two whole games.

[Capt. Pants 5,005]

The only way you get experience is to get on the bloody pitch. 

The point is about playing a proper striker they make the right moves on the pitch, they take defenders with them creating space for others. Stiepermann was truly dreadful and frankly we were playing with 10 men.

No one on this forum will convince me Omotoye wouldn't have been better than Stiepermann even for 15 mins. It was a wasted opportunity to give the lad some experience.

If Farke doesn't rate him then we need to get him out on loan in January as he's wasting his time here.

[hogesar 10,761]

I hope Farke is reading this thread so he can learn more about the ability of our young players because quite clearly he doesn't have a clue!

[pete 371]

Having the kids sitting on the bench watching your selection toiling and not being asked to run around and do your best for 15 mins not 5 is good management.  What if Stiepermann was unable to play up front which he clearly was what would Farke do then?  Need some sort of presence up front to give defenders something to think about nothing last night.  

[Jim Smith 2,608]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

The only way you get experience is to get on the bloody pitch. 

The point is about playing a proper striker they make the right moves on the pitch, they take defenders with them creating space for others. Stiepermann was truly dreadful and frankly we were playing with 10 men.

No one on this forum will convince me Omotoye wouldn't have been better than Stiepermann even for 15 mins. It was a wasted opportunity to give the lad some experience.

If Farke doesn't rate him then we need to get him out on loan in January as he's wasting his time here.

Yes. There was a moment on Saturday where Placheta (for about the only time although he is improving) beat his man for pace on the outside and got in behind the defence to the Cov byline. Stiepermann was in the middle and Placheta was looking for a cross and Stiepermann made completely the wrong run and gave him nothing to hit. Same last night, Placheta put a couple of good balls into the near post area and nobody made a run to attack them. All of our midfielders look, when on the ball, to play passes into a striker making runs off the shoulder of the defence. Thats how we play. Thats why Pukki is so crucial. A striker, however young, is more likely to make those runs and get in the right positions because that is what they are used to doing and that is their instinct. Thats what we have massively missed in these last two games. I refuse to believe that Omotoye would not have offered more in this regard than Stiepermann or in the case of the Cov game would not at least have offered fresh legs and a more mobile outlet up front for the closing stages of the game. 

Frankly, if the main striker from our U23/U21 side is not considered good enough to come on for 20 minutes in an emergency situation when we have no fit senior strikers at the club then you have to question whether the U23/U21 side/competition is fit for purpose. I don;t think thats the case. i think he could do a job, even if he is raw and by no means the finished article. 

[WD40 726]

Connor Southwell said on his match review something to the effect of ‘these aren’t the sort of games to play young players and carry a Tyrese Omotoye if required’.

This surprised me as what games could you carry Omotoye if not a recently promoted side or a side that just stayed up last year?

[Canary Wundaboy 1,423]

35 minutes ago, WD40 said:

Connor Southwell said on his match review something to the effect of ‘these aren’t the sort of games to play young players and carry a Tyrese Omotoye if required’.

This surprised me as what games could you carry Omotoye if not a recently promoted side or a side that just stayed up last year?

With respect to Connor, he is a little too ready to jump to Mr Farke's defence and ignore when mistakes are made.

[WD40 726]

9 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

With respect to Connor, he is a little too ready to jump to Mr Farke's defence and ignore when mistakes are made.

Indeed especially after he got slapped down after Southampton game.

[Ward 3 483]

18 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Change my mind, I’m right.

You Chuck a kid on that you know isn’t ready for a “punchers chance” and you are a bad manager. 
 

when they are ready they’ll get a chance. Right now it’s them on the bench or a totally empty bench, the former looks better.

How are players supposed to develop then if you never include them? Ferguson did alright... just sayin

[Canary Wundaboy 1,423]

I can buy the argument that it’s detrimental to youngsters to be brought on when the team’s failing, not doing well etc. But there’s limited fans in stadiums, we’re top of the league having just gone 10 games unbeaten, we have a massive injury crisis and after 1.5 games it was obvious our striking options weren’t going to produce anything to get us back in the game. Putting on a young, hungry striker for his first taste of league football against a tiring back line and giving him a free pass to have a go sounds like a no brainer. And since Farke brought him on for a few minutes anyway when it was obvious the game was gone, why not give him 15 and give him a decent chance of getting us back in it?

[jaywick_canery 28]

A talented youngster not getting near the ball would always be preferable to Stieperman giving the ball away and looking hopeless.

[Mason 47 1,921]

As others have said, full trust in Farke to know if a player is ready but I would currently refer to our injury situation as an emergency- without the u23s we would be taking 12 men to games like a Sunday side.

Omotoye after coming on was narrowly off of collecting a bobble at the far post, simply because he was taking up positions a striker takes up instinctively (and he was fully concentrated, which with the best will in the world a shattered Marco probably isn't). 

The players are already overworked and exhausted, increasing the threat of further injuries (see very nearly Max Aarons against Cov). We're already dropping points. I see no problem giving 15 minutes to a pacy striker if anything to protect those that come off.

[hogesar 10,761]

Do you not think if Farke thought the young players would offer more than the current players he would play them? Y'know, like he has since he arrived here?

Secondly, bringing on a couple of young players is the easier option for Farke. He could bring a couple of younger attacking players on and regardless of how they perform, none of you lot could kick up a fuss (although you probably would). So why do people think he's not bringing them on? Do you think he just forgets they're sitting behind him?

[hogesar 10,761]

To add to the above, I'd imagine that the younger players are more likely to get a few more minutes in the upcoming games as they'll have spent more time training with the first team and Farke makes quite a big point of integrating players into the first team training etc for a period of time before being involved in the first team.