Last seasons problems

[Well b back 3,207]

30 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

But we won it because we could play such brilliant football. Would love to see less goals scored against, but in the final analysis it's the results that count.

So are you just ignoring last year ?

[The Real Buh 3,432]

4 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Just like teams that play 4-4-2 will score more goals

Like that one fan that shouts “KICK IT!”

great... thanks for the contribution pal...

[sonyc 5,519]

For me, I'm very sure we will be boosting our defence, especially at CB. Reading Farke's words yesterday in the aftermath of pre season, I interpreted his words as him hoping we would have our young stars still with us but he half expects an outgoing or two (his words... not paraphrased exactly...were along the lines of  'unless we do something for the good of the club'). We know of the Gibson interest already. I expect we have 2 or 3 other lines of interest. I expect us to pay good money as well (like we did with Hanley).

One of my remaining worries is how we cope without a crowd. I think that was a huge challenge in the last 9 PL games and one we failed at miserably. We keep hearing of the 'one club ..together strong' mantra and without the fans this team has struggled. I know this is a kind of dynamic rather than a technical matter. But it continues to bother me. And we won't know until those first few games. In our brilliant season in the Championship the season before the players fed off the crowd like no other time (imo) with folk going crazy at those late winners, last minute goals. It propelled us to win the league. Sadly, it cannot be recreated. Something is lost there without us the fans.

[lake district canary 4,531]

4 hours ago, Well b back said:

So are you just ignoring last year ?

Might as well. Last season was a nightmare apart from a few bright moments.....so.......new season, championship football, some upgrades in players that might be better at not making daft mistakes that puts the defence under pressure, a bit more luck with keeping Zimbo fit and if we get to keep Godfrey, should be good prospects for this season.  

[pete 319]

Another loan option from the PL still available will probably need to wait until squads finalised and get a promising youngster in to bolster the defence.  If young may not need to be played as first choice.

[paddycanary 539]

This has been discussed repeatedly on here! On paper as it stands, we have Zimbo, Godfrey, Hanley & Klose (Famewo probably off on loan until at least January, possibly the season). It we're badly stuck, Tettey, Sorensen & even Quintilla now I believe could put in an emergency shift at CB. If all fit & available, I don't think any other club at this level can top that

We got badly burnt in this position at the top table and you can be damn sure Webber & Co are bearing this in mind for this window. Zimbo looked to be made of granite in the Champo (39 & 40 appearances) but there are a few question marks now. Godfrey made 30 league appearances last year and seems to be generally available. That's a great combo for this level. Hanley looked in great shape before the lockdown but he seems to pick up strains & knocks on a regular basis. Klose has always seemed injury prone here, has come back from a very serious injury, but I think he gets a bit of a pass for his poor performances post-lockdown given the circumstances. He may yet be an important player this season.

So 2/3 of our current options are likely to pick up injuries & Godfrey may get a move back to the PL. Very risky to go with what we have IMO. It would be remiss if there was not a list of 'Gibsonesque' CBs being watched closely this window, ideally with Champo experience & hopefully home-grown. Because of Webber's "hard-ball" valuations in this Covid-19 market, I think Big Ben will still be here come October, along with a new face; not a "WOW" signing, probably something similar to the Grant Hanley signing in 2017. 

I don't think we'll see a new GK this window, nor a new RB even if Aarons moves on. One Champo standard CB & maybe a couple more prospects. Things should start moving soon on the squad outs, rather than the squad ins. (e.g. most if not all of Trybull, Leitner, Drmic, Vrancic, Stiepermann, possibly Jordan Thomas, Famewo & Sinani on loan somewhere). One or two of the "jewels" will most likely be gone by October too when a few PL clubs start panicking, probably Aarons & Lewis and maybe even Cantwell too. 

If we can keep Godfrey & Buendia and bring in another CB, I think we'll look in good shape for another promotion push. There's also January too if the CB position goes títs up again.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

The back four is more than good enough at this level, but we do need reinforcements if we were to get promoted again. A large proportion of our issues last term resulted from too many injuries all at once and a lack of another top-drawer defensive midfielder. Yes, we had problems defending crosses and set pieces, but we also had problems in stopping attacking players getting into those positions in the first place. Some of this was due to full backs pushing up and getting countered, some of it was due to wide midfielders not being diligent enough, much of it was due to a lack of physicality in midfield.

In short, we weren't great defending as a team even in defensive midfield as well. Some of that was due to a lack of physicality. Vrancic with no pace, Trybull was a yard of pace too slow and not quite "hard" enough. Tettey was always a fighter, but again he lacked pace. With all that, it naturally puts more pressure on the defence.

Chuck in a forward/attacking midfield line that wasn't great at holding the ball up to relieve the pressure, and this is what you get.

I would actually maintain that the likes of Placheta and Hernandez, given their pace, helps us defensively as at least in theory the full-backs shouldn't have to hare up so much and can then focus on keeping their line. Pacey full-backs, but slow defensive midfielders, are not an ideal combo.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i am happy with the Defenders we have the Reason We have more pace mobile CDM 

Tettey is Great guy , been great for us but is to slow to cover the ground of a good CDM now ,

when you watch good CDM they are here there and everywhere closing down, covering a CB out of Position  we have missed that pace  and i believe it will help our defence 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I have to say I am wavering on Godfrey. He has all the attributes to be fantastic and at this level his pace and athleticism is enough to regularly get him out of trouble but he does not seem to be able to properly mark his man for 90 minutes. I’m beginning to think that if we have to cash in on any of them then maybe he’s one we should consider as the more “grisly” type of defender may serve us better in the champ. 

[Mullet 293]

We have to get some new defenders in, the last two seasons has proven that. Our current defensive players look good going forward but no good at defending, we need some 6 footers in there. There will be a lot of angry fans if we resume next week and continue to ship cheap goals

[Gordon Bennett 783]

We won’t be getting ‘’some’ in, it will be one new centre half or none I’d have thought. I’d like us to sign somebody (like Gibson) who is likely to improve the depth in that position but if we don’t I’m not overly worried, the four we have are the four we won the league with and other weaknesses have been potentially rectified to ease the pressure on our back four a bit more.

[tricky974 61]

I'm not sure we will bring in a new defender unless it is Gibson, and that's because of the defenders that we have if one was to go then I can see one coming in. 

I think the main problem we have is the way we defend, the zonal marking system doesn't work for us over the last two seasons of playing that way we have conceded alot of goals.

Maybe its not so much the players as the way we defend.

[Jools 584]

Tom Lockyer, surely good enough for back up --- Welsh international, proven at Championship level, only misses a gig when suspended and only 25 --- Luton have got him for nothing...

I doubt we even looked at him.

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

22 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

And if we dont get him, we should have a second choice in our sights.

Wasn’t Mawson the other one we were looking at?

[kirku 1,332]

9 hours ago, Jools said:

Tom Lockyer, surely good enough for back up --- Welsh international, proven at Championship level, only misses a gig when suspended and only 25 --- Luton have got him for nothing...

I doubt we even looked at him.

Shocking decision.

We really need a short CB who's spent almost his entire career below the Champs and who will never be good enough for a team chasing promotion, much less get in our first team.

Webber out.

[vlad666 203]

11 hours ago, paddycanary said:

This has been discussed repeatedly on here! On paper as it stands, we have Zimbo, Godfrey, Hanley & Klose (Famewo probably off on loan until at least January, possibly the season). It we're badly stuck, Tettey, Sorensen & even Quintilla now I believe could put in an emergency shift at CB. If all fit & available, I don't think any other club at this level can top that

We got badly burnt in this position at the top table and you can be damn sure Webber & Co are bearing this in mind for this window. Zimbo looked to be made of granite in the Champo (39 & 40 appearances) but there are a few question marks now. Godfrey made 30 league appearances last year and seems to be generally available. That's a great combo for this level. Hanley looked in great shape before the lockdown but he seems to pick up strains & knocks on a regular basis. Klose has always seemed injury prone here, has come back from a very serious injury, but I think he gets a bit of a pass for his poor performances post-lockdown given the circumstances. He may yet be an important player this season.

So 2/3 of our current options are likely to pick up injuries & Godfrey may get a move back to the PL. Very risky to go with what we have IMO. It would be remiss if there was not a list of 'Gibsonesque' CBs being watched closely this window, ideally with Champo experience & hopefully home-grown. Because of Webber's "hard-ball" valuations in this Covid-19 market, I think Big Ben will still be here come October, along with a new face; not a "WOW" signing, probably something similar to the Grant Hanley signing in 2017. 

I don't think we'll see a new GK this window, nor a new RB even if Aarons moves on. One Champo standard CB & maybe a couple more prospects. Things should start moving soon on the squad outs, rather than the squad ins. (e.g. most if not all of Trybull, Leitner, Drmic, Vrancic, Stiepermann, possibly Jordan Thomas, Famewo & Sinani on loan somewhere). One or two of the "jewels" will most likely be gone by October too when a few PL clubs start panicking, probably Aarons & Lewis and maybe even Cantwell too. 

If we can keep Godfrey & Buendia and bring in another CB, I think we'll look in good shape for another promotion push. There's also January too if the CB position goes títs up again.

“This has been discussed repeatedly on here!”
 

I asked if last seasons problems have been rectified. Especially the deficiency from set pieces. with the expected starting line up I don’t see any difference in physicality. Thus I assume we’ll still have these problems. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 minutes ago, vlad666 said:

“This has been discussed repeatedly on here!”
 

I asked if last seasons problems have been rectified. Especially the deficiency from set pieces. with the expected starting line up I don’t see any difference in physicality. Thus I assume we’ll still have these problems. 

I'd say Skipp is certainly more robust, particularly in the tackle, than anyone else in the club that has been in defensive midfield. Placheta adds extra pace to a team that didn't really have too much of it whilst Sorensen adds some to the defensive midfield which was very much lacking in it with the exception of McLean. Even then, McLean's no speedster - just Vrancic, Trybull and Tettey are really not fast.

Dowell looks a little bit bigger and stronger than a Cantwell or Buendia, Hugill will probably be hauled back in for defensive set pieces if he's playing and let's face it, Pukki cost us a few with his weak play on the edge of the box when it came to not getting defensive second balls.

Hauling Hugill back in and leaving Hernandez and Placheta up for a garryowen launched downfield could well become an option, instead of getting turned over in possession on the edge of the box.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

22 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Hoggie we conceded more goals than any other team to win the Champs, ever. That’s woeful.

The question is why. One of the causes of conceding  so many goals was losing possession in dangerous  areas. This put greater stress on the defence. The next point is. Who was losing possession and why?
 

Watching Game 1 over the weekend I was impressed by the midfield. The was a consistent cohesion, power and precision  about the interplay that was impressive.

The errors were reduced ( final 5 minutes is a reminder never to switch off) and the defence were under less pressure, and we scored 3 goals.

The elephant in the room concerns the players that are good to watch but are an inherent weakness in losing possession.

I detect a changing of the guard and there will be some past heroes who will find they are sold or lower down in the pecking order as Farke realises his methods and tactics have to adapt to one that can exist in the PL and are formed in the Championship.
 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 hours ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

The question is why. One of the causes of conceding  so many goals was losing possession in dangerous  areas. This put greater stress on the defence. The next point is. Who was losing possession and why?
 

Watching Game 1 over the weekend I was impressed by the midfield. The was a consistent cohesion, power and precision  about the interplay that was impressive.

The errors were reduced ( final 5 minutes is a reminder never to switch off) and the defence were under less pressure, and we scored 3 goals.

The elephant in the room concerns the players that are good to watch but are an inherent weakness in losing possession.

I detect a changing of the guard and there will be some past heroes who will find they are sold or lower down in the pecking order as Farke realises his methods and tactics have to adapt to one that can exist in the PL and are formed in the Championship.
 

 

Regarding the bit in bold, you're already seeing it. That's why Leitner and Trybull are on the way out, and those were two players who played for large parts of our previous Championship win. I don't think Vrancic will be much beyond a back-up player now, I may be wrong but I get the impression Rupp's getting readied for that deep-lying playmaker sort of role due to his greater mobility and defensive diligence.

As much as I'd prefer to see Stiepermann and Pukki be partnered up as between them they caused carnage last time in the Championship, I would not be surprised if either Dowell or even Buendia ended up in the hole, with Stiepermann being the man losing out.

[Hardhouse44 261]

4 hours ago, vlad666 said:

“This has been discussed repeatedly on here!”
 

I asked if last seasons problems have been rectified. Especially the deficiency from set pieces. with the expected starting line up I don’t see any difference in physicality. Thus I assume we’ll still have these problems. 

I don’t think the defensive frailties will be improved. If anything they could get worse. It’s become clear that nobody thinks our three bright young defensive stars are worth the sort of money that some have touted. And of course that’s only to be expected. Teams will take a punt on them for their attacking attributes and with a hope they may turn in to the real deal but as Liverpool showed not at silly money.

The truth is we have no real defensive cohesion within the club or management. I don’t think Farke has the first idea of how to defend and play the style of football he wants going forward. We may have to accept we can’t have both. It will come down to can we score more than you! Which requires that big luck slice again. Like the previous Championship campaign. Trouble is it runs out eventually. 
 

We wait to see where our top players like Emi and Cantwell end up. Without them we may need more than luck to out score our opponents. All we’ve seen from the new boys so far is friendlies played at half pace often against kids or pub teams. We know Emi and Cantwell can do the business at championship level and until we know if they will be with us I’d say our defensive short falls could be only the tip of the iceberg.
 

 

[sgncfc 1,228]

To answer the OP - no, on the evidence to date we have not solved last season's problems. If anything the improvement in defensive midfielders has just emphasised the frailty of our current central defenders. In answer to the poster who suggested that a big bloke with a wide forehead isn't necessary - well, actually yes he is. We need someone who will dominate the back four and, with Krul, takes command in our penalty area. We don't have that and haven't had since Malky left. Put that player alongside Godfrey and we have a defence - without that player, Godfrey in particular is very weak. 

If we don't get Gibson or Mawson I'm sure they have other targets who fit the mould. It would be nice to have them in the squad before we start though. We won't go up without that player.

[vlad666 203]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

To answer the OP - no, on the evidence to date we have not solved last season's problems. If anything the improvement in defensive midfielders has just emphasised the frailty of our current central defenders. In answer to the poster who suggested that a big bloke with a wide forehead isn't necessary - well, actually yes he is. We need someone who will dominate the back four and, with Krul, takes command in our penalty area. We don't have that and haven't had since Malky left. Put that player alongside Godfrey and we have a defence - without that player, Godfrey in particular is very weak. 

If we don't get Gibson or Mawson I'm sure they have other targets who fit the mould. It would be nice to have them in the squad before we start though. We won't go up without that player.

That’s the point I was trying to make. When 3 out of 4 of your defenders are not dominant in the air, you’ll always struggle against set prices. Godfrey may turn out to be awesome. At the minute, in our setup, I consider him to be part of the problem. 

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Regarding the bit in bold, you're already seeing it. That's why Leitner and Trybull are on the way out, and those were two players who played for large parts of our previous Championship win. I don't think Vrancic will be much beyond a back-up player now, I may be wrong but I get the impression Rupp's getting readied for that deep-lying playmaker sort of role due to his greater mobility and defensive diligence.

As much as I'd prefer to see Stiepermann and Pukki be partnered up as between them they caused carnage last time in the Championship, I would not be surprised if either Dowell or even Buendia ended up in the hole, with Stiepermann being the man losing out.

I too like the Stiepermann / Pukki combo and the celebrations after they combined to score  in the recent friendly, it was noticeable that  the big man was surrounded by team mates and who had great respect for him. My thoughts are about the role that Buendia, Cantwell and Hernandez would have if they do not move on. In simple terms, I do not see them all named  on the same starting 11 this season unless injuries dictate. Cantwell may find himself on the bench more than he would like as tactics change to the strengths of the new players.

[paddycanary 539]

9 hours ago, vlad666 said:

“This has been discussed repeatedly on here!”
 

I asked if last seasons problems have been rectified. Especially the deficiency from set pieces. with the expected starting line up I don’t see any difference in physicality. Thus I assume we’ll still have these problems. 

 

1 hour ago, vlad666 said:

That’s the point I was trying to make. When 3 out of 4 of your defenders are not dominant in the air, you’ll always struggle against set prices. Godfrey may turn out to be awesome. At the minute, in our setup, I consider him to be part of the problem. 

Fair enough, I see the point you're making there re: set-pieces. Neither Aarons nor Lewis have the nous (yet) or the physicality to effectively defend set-pieces. Godfrey is still learning his trade and was tasked with huge responsibility over the last year against top players. Zimm is well able to get his head/body in the way, as is Hanley. A fit & firing Klose is too, but perhaps we'll never see that again. If the club choose to go with what we have, we might get away with it, or we may very well be seeing some of the same mistakes occurring again. 

However, one would assume that in general we'll have more possession this year, be on the front foot more, (hopefully) not be overrun & overpowered through midfield, be able to press better, get the winger(s) to provide width instead of the fullbacks, hold the ball up top more etc. If this comes to pass, we'll be less "under the cosh" and be dealing with less set-piece situations in general. 

Would that be a satisfactory solution to the ongoing set-piece issue? Perhaps for this season, but I certainly would like to see the club add a "no-nonsense" CB with Champo experience during this window. Maybe even two if Godfrey leaves. Having the option of playing three recognised centre-backs on occasion without sweating another injury could be another handy weapon this year. 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

As a few have mentioned, equating our admittedly poor defensive record under Farke only to back 4, or to the centre halves, is way too simplistic. The XI as a whole has to defend. So many set piece goals came from us being smaller as an XI  then the oppo. But you don’t drop Max Aarons for being short because he’s outstanding in other aspects of the game. You have to compensate for his height in other areas of the pitch. Hugill, for example will make a big difference to set pieces defensively as well as offensively. Placheta and Sorensen look like tall lads or taller than what we had before. Hanley and Zimbo being fit will also make us a much stronger, taller unit. 
 

Overall it is pretty mean to complain about anything in this summer’s business. We look a very competitive squad for this level. 

[1902 1,167]

On 30/08/2020 at 10:49, Canary Wundaboy said:

Sorry hoggie but I think people are reading a lot into the defensive record over the past 2 seasons which has been woeful, plus the recent injury record of those defenders.

Our defensive record was only woeful in our promotion season if taken completely out of context. We scored 93 goals and had a goal difference par for the course for a side that won promotion. When you score the most goals a team has scored for 5 years in a league, chances are you are going to also concede a lot. By contrast Middlesbrough only conceded 31 the year they went up, and only scored 63. Seperating attack from defence in football as if they exist in isolation makes no sense.

Additionally it was a stupidly high scoring year, look at that league table, compare it to years before, everyone in the top 6 scored a lot, and as a result also conceded a hell of a lot. However, that being said, set pieces are an area we are weak in, but again, that's a team effort.

[Jools 584]

16 hours ago, kirku said:

Shocking decision.

We really need a short CB who's spent almost his entire career below the Champs and who will never be good enough for a team chasing promotion, much less get in our first team.

Webber out.

Tom Lockyer is hardly a short-@rse at 5ft 11" and played every minute of 43 league games for Charlton in the Championship last season and one can bet one's last Euro he'll prove more efficient for Luton than the injury prone Klose & Hanley will prove efficient for City over the season.

Godfrey's chomping at the bit to get away in order to play in his preferred position as a defensive-midfielder and our superior centre-back, Zimmemann, is also sporadic with injuries...

Never mind though, we've got a couple of midfielders who can put in average performances as defenders and a novice in Famewo who we signed from.....wait for it.... Luton 🙃 For a fee as well...

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 hours ago, Jools said:

Tom Lockyer is hardly a short-@rse at 5ft 11" and played every minute of 43 league games for Charlton in the Championship last season and one can bet one's last Euro he'll prove more efficient for Luton than the injury prone Klose & Hanley will prove efficient for City over the season.

Godfrey's chomping at the bit to get away in order to play in his preferred position as a defensive-midfielder and our superior centre-back, Zimmemann, is also sporadic with injuries...

Never mind though, we've got a couple of midfielders who can put in average performances as defenders and a novice in Famewo who we signed from.....wait for it.... Luton 🙃 For a fee as well...

That'll be the same as Max Aarons and Jamal Lewis then. 

[Gordon Bennett 783]

8 hours ago, Jools said:

Godfrey's chomping at the bit to get away in order to play in his preferred position as a defensive-midfielder and our superior centre-back, Zimmemann, is also sporadic with injuries...

Please do expand.....

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

Looks like he's caught two already...