A view on turf moore from nr1

[NeymarSmith 136]

Hi all

Been a while since I've posted, so would love a good debate. Been watching less and less this season, from about November, ive not bothered going up and sometimes not even listening on radio. This has mainly been done due to not enjoying the game i am watching, or even trying to work out what we are trying to do as pattern of play. I do read and understand that form has improved at home and from highlights and the last three or four games ive listened to, there have been periods of the game that sounds like i would enjoy again. To be clear, i didnt stop due to not winning, but more thinking we needed a change as it was dreadful to watch and results matched that more or less - again, i understand we have a soft underbelly and i can take that, and take loosing most weeks in the premier league, as long as we are not total dross to watch and clueless. Im still unconvinced by DW mind and regardless of if he gets us up or not, i think we should let him go. I dont think he has the know how to keep us up even if we spent £100m, and i dont think his hudds survival is anything to compare to us at this time. Would anyone agree

 

Now to my main question. With regards to burnley fc, and there excellent year last year, and failed one this year. A fair few of their fans want VK to be fired. That pays not a great deal of homage to their campaign and style of play last year and just focuses on this year and the poor results and according to their forum, poor performances. As a group of fans with assumingly no dog in this fight, what do we think/feel from our experience with DF and binning off the manager when the football is so good, albeit in the league below, but building and building as if DF would of been given the time, or do we view it from an unromantic way (as no doubt i see DFs time through yellow and green) and agree for them to chop and change?

Sorry to harp back to DF, so if you dont want to answer it, please feel free to answer my first essay re DW and if us going up would be a shambles play style wise as clearly we arent anywhere near good enough! (Obv i want us to go up though- we need the money, hopefully pushes delia bless her out on a high, and thirdly it could be a day at Wembley against the scum and stop them going up!)

 

Good to be back. Peace and love.

OTBC

[cambridgeshire canary 7,797]

So you're saying you stopped supporting us when we were playing badly? That'll go down well 😉

[Grando 336]

As the original poster has stopped going to our matches or even listening to them on the radio then I'm not sure that his opinion on the effectiveness of Wagner as a manager holds much current validity...

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

No comment, but I hope if Kompany does become available (doubt it) that we make a grab at him.

I haven't studied Burnley much either their, backing, signings or the cause of their drop-off as I’ve been more interested in 'little old Luton's brave' attempts.

Seems like limited funds, rather than managerial deficit to me, and in that respect some comparison with Farke's efforts can be made.

[Mr Angry 2,016]

5 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

No comment, but I hope if Kompany does become available (doubt it) that we make a grab at him.

I haven't studied Burnley much either their, backing, signings or the cause of their drop-off as I’ve been more interested in 'little old Luton's brave' attempts.

Seems like limited funds, rather than managerial deficit to me, and in that respect some comparison with Farke's efforts can be made.

Burnley spent €110 million this season-which, while it’s not massive in comparison to Notts Forest for example, is considerably more than we spent after DF’s second promotion.

[dylanisabaddog 6,133]

18 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

Burnley spent €110 million this season-which, while it’s not massive in comparison to Notts Forest for example, is considerably more than we spent after DF’s second promotion.

Not that different. We splashed the cash on some absolute no hopers I'm afraid. 

The truth is that the problem is not Burnley or Norwich, it's football. Every year it gets a little bit harder to go up and stay up. Between them, the EPL and Sky have effectively created a monopoly. 

[Badger 2,745]

The pragmatic answer is pretty simple if staying up is the goal. They are already relegated, so should keep him, get promoted comfortably next season and then sack him and install someone like Hodgson (Dyche etc) who plays totally pragmatically and b*gger the style.

[pete 371]

No he is not saying he is not going because we were playing poorly. Its because all the enjoyment of going was being sucked out seemingly by events at the club which includes the football served up recently.  And the ongoing ownership saga.  I felt as OP and have voted with my feet to swerve Carrow Rd since October.  Yes prospects have improved recently maybe due to DW but more probably due to Sainz and Sargent.  However reaching the play offs as previously we shall see a reverse of those prospects.

Once Delia lets go of the reins looking forward to returning and enjoying days at Carrow Rd.   Seriously believe the current malaise at Norwich is more prevalent amongst the fans than most consider this to be the case

[shefcanary 2,950]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

Burnley spent €110 million this season-which, while it’s not massive in comparison to Notts Forest for example, is considerably more than we spent after DF’s second promotion.

They had to spend more though because they got promoted with 6 or 7 loaned players, most of whom went back home on promotion. So the argument, those he has bought in haven't been up to it, so poor recruitment rather than poor management. Is that a direct parallel to Farke and season no.2? 

Oops, that's done it, made me look like a Farke apologist!!!

[NeymarSmith 136]

2 hours ago, Grando said:

As the original poster has stopped going to our matches or even listening to them on the radio then I'm not sure that his opinion on the effectiveness of Wagner as a manager holds much current validity...

Ah i did say i picked back up in recent weeks. Try focus on the discussion but yes, i bow to all of you who endured the dullness, you are all better supporters than I. Ta x

[Commonsense 802]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Not that different. We splashed the cash on some absolute no hopers I'm afraid. 

The truth is that the problem is not Burnley or Norwich, it's football. Every year it gets a little bit harder to go up and stay up. Between them, the EPL and Sky have effectively created a monopoly. 

Usually your posts are clear and logical. As I’ve pointed it to others, this one is just not true. It doesn’t get harder every year to go up and stay up. Yes this year all 3 may well come straight back down( though hopefully Luton won’t) the year before none of the promoted teams did!

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Fair weather fan hey? Well it takes all sorts I guess. 

[NeymarSmith 136]

1 hour ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Fair weather fan hey? Well it takes all sorts I guess. 

Dude, i have explained this above. 

My support didnt go for city, just my want to watch them. I still wished them all the best and they were 100pc my team.

But i didnt like what i was seeing, they were dross! You know that, and i chose to do what i could and not go/tune in anymore for a few weeks. 

Im happy for you to have the one up on me, as per the other poster, so godly you are a better supporter than me, well done, you must be so happy - although, may i ask, when you arent happy with how they are playing over a number of weeks, or dont rate the manager/or the board are you still going/tuning in, then coming on here moaning about, or are you just clapping like a muppet for something you arent enjoying? Maybe you are at CR and shouting and abusing the players/manager/board or booing? As i said, im sure you are the better supporter.

' ! 

Edited March 13 by NeymarSmith
Got my knickers in a right twist :p

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

I'm still watching/tuning in, as I did in the late 90s when we were crap, as I did between 07 and 09 when we were awful, as i have every time we've been awful in the premier League, I gave up my ST a couple years back due to personal reasons but I still make many with casual tickets and watch every other game however possible and yes if I am unhappy with what I see and im there I use my voice and if I'm not there then yes I moan to the missus, the wall, the pink un, whoever will listen, but then after an hour or so its gone, that's what following a club is like. 

It's not about being a better supporter.i just can't fathom how anyone can say they're a supporter of a club but just because we're not playing/doing well, they just ignore it until things pick up. 

I'd expect that from a man united/citeh, Chelsea fan etc. but not a ncfc fan who should very much be used to the lows that come next to our highs. 

But you do you fella. That nerve that I hit must have stopped throbbing by now. 🤟🤟🤟

[chicken 3,083]

7 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Not that different. We splashed the cash on some absolute no hopers I'm afraid. 

Erm, it's close to double the amount of money we spent in transfers. And we sold our most creative asset to fund a good half of that spend too. 

[Fen Canary 1,456]

8 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

Hi all

Been a while since I've posted, so would love a good debate. Been watching less and less this season, from about November, ive not bothered going up and sometimes not even listening on radio. This has mainly been done due to not enjoying the game i am watching, or even trying to work out what we are trying to do as pattern of play. I do read and understand that form has improved at home and from highlights and the last three or four games ive listened to, there have been periods of the game that sounds like i would enjoy again. To be clear, i didnt stop due to not winning, but more thinking we needed a change as it was dreadful to watch and results matched that more or less - again, i understand we have a soft underbelly and i can take that, and take loosing most weeks in the premier league, as long as we are not total dross to watch and clueless. Im still unconvinced by DW mind and regardless of if he gets us up or not, i think we should let him go. I dont think he has the know how to keep us up even if we spent £100m, and i dont think his hudds survival is anything to compare to us at this time. Would anyone agree

 

Now to my main question. With regards to burnley fc, and there excellent year last year, and failed one this year. A fair few of their fans want VK to be fired. That pays not a great deal of homage to their campaign and style of play last year and just focuses on this year and the poor results and according to their forum, poor performances. As a group of fans with assumingly no dog in this fight, what do we think/feel from our experience with DF and binning off the manager when the football is so good, albeit in the league below, but building and building as if DF would of been given the time, or do we view it from an unromantic way (as no doubt i see DFs time through yellow and green) and agree for them to chop and change?

Sorry to harp back to DF, so if you dont want to answer it, please feel free to answer my first essay re DW and if us going up would be a shambles play style wise as clearly we arent anywhere near good enough! (Obv i want us to go up though- we need the money, hopefully pushes delia bless her out on a high, and thirdly it could be a day at Wembley against the scum and stop them going up!)

 

Good to be back. Peace and love.

OTBC

You forget it took Farke a season and the addition of Buendia for his style to become effective. It’s now took Wagner a year and the return of key players from injury to do the same. The problem with Farkes (at the time) style along with Kompany is that it only works well when you have one of the better squads in the league. Once you go up and are one of the weakest trying to play that way is simply suicidal. In hindsight our results against the other top 6 sides in both our promotion campaigns did serve as a warning that we struggle on getting promoted, what we were was incredibly efficient flat track bullies whereby we didn’t drop hardly any points in the games you wouldn’t expect to. This isn’t a criticism, it doesn’t matter who you take the points off as long as you get them but looking back the warning signs were there. Whether Wagner will be more successful I genuinely have no idea. He kept Huddersfield up in the past with arguably the weakest squad in the division so perhaps he may be able to repeat the trick if we do end up getting promoted.

As for Kompany you forget that Burnley did have a sustained run of top flight football under Dyche, so perhaps their expectations are higher than ours. Or perhaps they look at us and come to the conclusion that even if Kompany got them straight back up they’d simply do the exact same thing next time under him so it’s worth rolling the dice

[dylanisabaddog 6,133]

12 hours ago, Commonsense said:

Usually your posts are clear and logical. As I’ve pointed it to others, this one is just not true. It doesn’t get harder every year to go up and stay up. Yes this year all 3 may well come straight back down( though hopefully Luton won’t) the year before none of the promoted teams did!

I've simply had the feeling that the Premier League gets better every year. That's hardly surprising as the team in 17th receives £12m more in merit payments from Sky than the team that finishes 20th. The team that finishes 10th gets around £30m more. That is going to enable clubs to slightly improve their squads from year to year. That does give an incremental or cumulative effect which is hard to ignore. 

There seems to be a lot of neutral support for Luton and for a team that got up through the play offs they've done surprisingly well. But if they don't drop this year I doubt they'll survive next.

What bothers me is that a team like Burnley can stroll through the Championship with a near record number of points but still end up as good as relegated by Christmas. 

Perhaps I'm wrong but the tv money is now so huge that I can't see a self funded club surviving. I'd love to be proved wrong! 

I chatted to a group of hardened fans before the game on Saturday,all of a similar vintage to me. Perhaps we're just getting old and grouchy but every one of us shared the view that we'd rather not go up. That's an awful indictment of the state of our game. 

[DraytonBoy 249]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

every one of us shared the view that we'd rather not go up

There's been a shift in the conversation since Christmas, no one mentions getting rid of Wagner any more it's all about what happens if they go up.

My take on Burnley is that Kompany has done major 're-builds' at the start of the last two seasons and this one has simply failed. 

[Grumpy 147]

21 hours ago, shefcanary said:

They had to spend more though because they got promoted with 6 or 7 loaned players, most of whom went back home

That is the difference between last season and this.Last season they practically walked the championship because of the style of play and the players they had on loan who had that extra bit of ability and quality.They played exciting enjoyable football

[aBee 176]

8 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I've simply had the feeling that the Premier League gets better every year. That's hardly surprising as the team in 17th receives £12m more in merit payments from Sky than the team that finishes 20th. The team that finishes 10th gets around £30m more. That is going to enable clubs to slightly improve their squads from year to year. That does give an incremental or cumulative effect which is hard to ignore. 

There seems to be a lot of neutral support for Luton and for a team that got up through the play offs they've done surprisingly well. But if they don't drop this year I doubt they'll survive next.

What bothers me is that a team like Burnley can stroll through the Championship with a near record number of points but still end up as good as relegated by Christmas. 

Perhaps I'm wrong but the tv money is now so huge that I can't see a self funded club surviving. I'd love to be proved wrong! 

I chatted to a group of hardened fans before the game on Saturday,all of a similar vintage to me. Perhaps we're just getting old and grouchy but every one of us shared the view that we'd rather not go up. That's an awful indictment of the state of our game. 

I think you’re right that just to stand still you’ve got to improve. But that isn’t just about money (plenty have spent a huge amount to little avail). It’s underappreciated how big a part is played by management/training/tactics. The old school rigid managers are gone and even City has had to make major style adjustments despite having all the money. In fact their two biggest buys in phillips and Grealish have played little part in that. 
 

I wonder whether you might not do better after being promoted with a highly pragmatic manager making do with what he has in the context of the requirements of the league than trying to play in a style which can only be implemented against opponents whose underlying quality is much weaker. 

[king canary 8,751]

This season has been, I think an interesting killer for some of the common Farke myths that happened after he left.

Myth one, that nobody could have gotten more out those players, has been undermined by seeing a significantly more limited Luton team already equal our points total from Farke's first season with another 8 games left.

Myth two, that Farkeball with further investment could have been a success, has been undermined by seeing Burnley spend significant money while keeping this style of play and fail miserably.

I get the idea about keeping Kompany/Farke for promotion and then trying to switch to a more pragmatic method the season after but that sort of 180 pivot is very difficult to pull off in one summer. 

What you need is to find a manager who can thread that needle ala Thomas Frank (or even Paul Lambert 10 years ago). But you also need the entire club on board. This is kind of what we wanted to do with Smith (which @Parma Ham's gone mouldy not incorrectly calls 'Premier League Lite') but it didn't work. Ironically I do think if we went up this year we'd have a better chance of doing a Luton under Wagner than we would have done under Farke.

[hogesar 10,761]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

This season has been, I think an interesting killer for some of the common Farke myths that happened after he left.

Myth one, that nobody could have gotten more out those players, has been undermined by seeing a significantly more limited Luton team already equal our points total from Farke's first season with another 8 games left.

Myth two, that Farkeball with further investment could have been a success, has been undermined by seeing Burnley spend significant money while keeping this style of play and fail miserably.

I get the idea about keeping Kompany/Farke for promotion and then trying to switch to a more pragmatic method the season after but that sort of 180 pivot is very difficult to pull off in one summer. 

What you need is to find a manager who can thread that needle ala Thomas Frank (or even Paul Lambert 10 years ago). But you also need the entire club on board. This is kind of what we wanted to do with Smith (which @Parma Ham's gone mouldy not incorrectly calls 'Premier League Lite') but it didn't work. Ironically I do think if we went up this year we'd have a better chance of doing a Luton under Wagner than we would have done under Farke.

Thomas Frank is an excellent example because, particularly in their initial prem season. I think they were joint second with only Liverpool above them for set piece goals scored. I can't remember but it was more than 15 goals. Think how pivotal that is in swinging games.

I also agree despite starting with a weaker squad we might actually amass more points under Wagner than we did under Farke.

On 13/03/2024 at 12:20, NeymarSmith said:

Hi all

Been a while since I've posted, so would love a good debate. Been watching less and less this season, from about November, ive not bothered going up and sometimes not even listening on radio. This has mainly been done due to not enjoying the game i am watching, or even trying to work out what we are trying to do as pattern of play.

 

I would argue more than anything else that the one thing we have had under Wagner this season is a very, very clear way of playing (one which was also very, very clear not able to work with the injuries we had which he for some reason persisted with).

So I'm always surprised to see this. It strikes me that some fans' think Farke's football was the only way of playing. I genuinely think post Farke a lot of fans would have turned their nose up at Lambert's teams but they were also great fun to watch (more, for some, I think).

 

[lake district canary 4,826]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I would argue more than anything else that the one thing we have had under Wagner this season is a very, very clear way of playing (one which was also very, very clear not able to work with the injuries we had which he for some reason persisted with).

So I'm always surprised to see this. It strikes me that some fans' think Farke's football was the only way of playing. I genuinely think post Farke a lot of fans would have turned their nose up at Lambert's teams but they were also great fun to watch (more, for some, I think).

 

The complaint from me would be that a manager's way of playing ought to be clear regardless of players/injuries etc. Farke's system was the same whoever he played - every player knew it and the style of football was identifiable whoever was in the team. 

That Wagner's style only seems identifiable when certain players play is not encouraging - limited, even. I suppose you could say that if promoted, we could get more of his kind of players in, but to see a style of play disappear just because one or two partcular players are missing has been tough to watch. 

There are times this season where we have looked so poor it has been very hard to sit and watch it from afar, let alone thinking of travelling long distance/spending a lot of money going to a match, so I understand where the op is coming from. 

[king canary 8,751]

41 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So I'm always surprised to see this. It strikes me that some fans' think Farke's football was the only way of playing. I genuinely think post Farke a lot of fans would have turned their nose up at Lambert's teams but they were also great fun to watch (more, for some, I think).

I think there is something in this. Some fans seem to have come to the conclusion that Farkeball is not just a good way to play but the correct way to play- and thus anything else is wrong, even if it is effective. Obviously everyone is entitled to their preferences and I do think there is a wider point about how the financial gulfs between divisions have started to change what fans can and do want from their teams. But the insistence that the club must have a very specific philosophy (and lets be clear, that philosophy was successful for two seasons out of 5) leads to some very unrealistic expectations. 

[hogesar 10,761]

34 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

The complaint from me would be that a manager's way of playing ought to be clear regardless of players/injuries etc. Farke's system was the same whoever he played - every player knew it and the style of football was identifiable whoever was in the team. 

That Wagner's style only seems identifiable when certain players play is not encouraging - limited, even. I suppose you could say that if promoted, we could get more of his kind of players in, but to see a style of play disappear just because one or two partcular players are missing has been tough to watch. 

There are times this season where we have looked so poor it has been very hard to sit and watch it from afar, let alone thinking of travelling long distance/spending a lot of money going to a match, so I understand where the op is coming from. 

I don't really agree,  I think Wagner still has a very certain and specific style (which didn't work) that was identifiable but just difficult to follow because it wasn't working.

The closest similarity I can think of is Farke without Emi. If you only watched those games you'd question where our penetration was and what the point was in passing around the back 80 times before recycling.

[Fen Canary 1,456]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The complaint from me would be that a manager's way of playing ought to be clear regardless of players/injuries etc. Farke's system was the same whoever he played - every player knew it and the style of football was identifiable whoever was in the team. 

That Wagner's style only seems identifiable when certain players play is not encouraging - limited, even. I suppose you could say that if promoted, we could get more of his kind of players in, but to see a style of play disappear just because one or two partcular players are missing has been tough to watch. 

There are times this season where we have looked so poor it has been very hard to sit and watch it from afar, let alone thinking of travelling long distance/spending a lot of money going to a match, so I understand where the op is coming from. 

Is that a good thing? We played in exactly the same way every game, but our results without Buendia were awful. Arguably Farke was just as limited as Wagner in that regard, in that he was just as reliant on a few key players to make his preferred style of play work effectively, take those it and it quickly falls apart. Playing the exact same way also meant our results against the other top 6 teams in the league were average at best, with no inclination to try and mix it up when it appeared not to be working. Having a defined style of play is great when it works, but it’s not the be all and end all.

We’re not Man City, and we can’t simply go out and buy the best players in the world to fit a specific system. Occasionally those players aren’t available for clubs at our level so instead we have to buy the best we can and find the system to suit their abilities rather than the other way round 

[lake district canary 4,826]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't really agree,  I think Wagner still has a very certain and specific style (which didn't work) that was identifiable but just difficult to follow because it wasn't working.

The closest similarity I can think of is Farke without Emi. If you only watched those games you'd question where our penetration was and what the point was in passing around the back 80 times before recycling.

Farkeball was good on the eye even without Emi on the field. It was identifiable, people were virtually interchangeable, the cup game I went to at Burnley when Emi was injured was an absolute joy to watch, so I don't agree that Emi was the be all and end all of the good footballing style. The style was integrated and clear virtually all the time, certainly in the championship seasons and first PL season. 

To watch our team this season when certain players are missing - and even at times when they are all there - has been some of the most pedestrian football I can remember. We look to have come through that turgid style, although the first half in one of our recent matches was tough to watch - and when we are on it, we look as good as anyone in this league. 

Farkeball was always there, Emi or not -  Wagnerball is there when it is there, but when it isn't there, we look like fish out of water.