Toxic, but is calm needed?

[Capt. Pants 4,261]

Trouble is you keep waiting and waiting we'll end up doing nothing all season. 

Knapper inherits an absolute snitshow and is immediately on the backfoot with the fans. Chicken and egg possibly but I fear he won't do anything quickly and inherits much Webber 'badwill'.

Last night was as poor as it's ever been with 'boro literally at half pace most of the game - they hardly needed to break sweat such was the tempo of our play. Yes there were nice moments 1st half against Leeds but disappeared 2nd half and never got going at all last night.

I just can't see where we go with Wagner otherthan backwards. You cannot have a manager that gets away with doing stupid things for appears to be every single game.

[S_81 816]

1 minute ago, Capt. Pants said:

Trouble is you keep waiting and waiting we'll end up doing nothing all season. 

Knapper inherits an absolute snitshow and is immediately on the backfoot with the fans. Chicken and egg possibly but I fear he won't do anything quickly and inherits much Webber 'badwill'.

Last night was as poor as it's ever been with 'boro literally at half pace most of the game - they hardly needed to break sweat such was the tempo of our play. Yes there were nice moments 1st half against Leeds but disappeared 2nd half and never got going at all last night.

I just can't see where we go with Wagner otherthan backwards. You cannot have a manager that gets away with doing stupid things for appears to be every single game.

Totally agree. Need rid now. But a temporary solution as can’t involve Webber in the next perm recruitment 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,435]

Webber wants Webber out. He resigned last March . He has a contractual obligation to work with us until next March unless we release him from his contract. In turn we have to pay him for a year unless he offers to cut short the notice period. 

People with experience of organisations will know how this works in practice. A deal is struck . The intention is clear . By resigning you are signalling intent you don’t want to work there anymore. 

Have I ever worked for a year with someone that doesn’t want to be there? No. This is rarely if ever a desirable position. Doesn’t matter if it’s a multinational or someone running a sweet shop. 

I don’t want to be here anymore is exactly that. 
 

A replacement has been hard to find. We have ended up giving the job to somebody without Webbers cv. Sporting Directors across the globe are nearly always hired based on experience of the job required. We have bucked that trend . 

Credit must be given to Webber for his performance . Recruiting Farke and in turn a team that won two promotions . To a lesser extent the infrastructure of the academy . 
In turn two abject failures in the Prem and now two poor championship years lay at his door . You can’t have one without the other . But mitigation exists as we probably massively over achieved given our financial position, laughingly dressed up a model. 
 

Wagner is just a side show. Lots of managers trade off previous successes . I can think of Paul Jewell and Ian Dowie. Wagner isn’t very good. He had one glorious period and since then has been on the slippery slope. When he gets sacked (not if) he will return to a lowly European club. Being outthought by Leeds and Boro is one thing . Failing to motivate his team against Rotherham and Plymouth is beyond bad . 
 

One has to question how we have got here. The failings in the way the organisation has been run is for all to see. The incumbent owners have been dragged to the inevitable acknowledgement that they can’t compete but they still cling on as illustrated by the pod cast. Webber knows this. Has known for years. And has likely done the dragging . It’s a highly complex matter made so not least by the value of a club that owns large non footballing assets.D and M cannot just give the club away . But the stubbornness is there. 
 

Three years is a very long time to build up a unenviable debt to Anastasio. It won’t last that long - MA will agitate he way to full control or clear off and take his money with him. MA happily locking in to every decision taken by D and M, Zoe and Nephew Tom for the next three years?  No chance.

 

 

[ron obvious 1,514]

49 minutes ago, king canary said:

Injuries should be considered but they aren't the be all and end all. All teams suffer them, coaches need to deal with them.

In the 4 games we played pre his injury we took 10 points from 12 over 4 games. 2.5ppg.

Since he went out we've taken 7 points from a possible 27. So under 1ppg.

Obviously losing him hasn't helped. But firstly the 4 games with him is a very small sample size (we lost plenty of games with him in the team last season). 

And secondly losing one key player shouldn't lead to league winning form becoming relegation form. That it has is a failure on the part of the manager.

We also lost Barnes. A huge character in the team. I think it was a combination of the two that sent confidence surging through the team.

To say losing them both 'hasn't helped' is the understatement of the year - especially when you look at the replacements. 

A team working well is a really delicate thing. We've all seen teams' form drop dramatically for no really explicable reason. In our case there is s totally obvious one; a really good manager with a really good squad might be able to overcome it, but it's never easy. Look at all the manager's who've gone from hero to zero because they can't get their players to replicate good form.

Football's a funny old game, & I don't care what anyone says, it's difficult to predict how things will go, especially for a team operating with our constraints.

[repman 635]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Injuries should be considered but they aren't the be all and end all. All teams suffer them, coaches need to deal with them.

In the 4 games we played pre his injury we took 10 points from 12 over 4 games. 2.5ppg.

Since he went out we've taken 7 points from a possible 27. So under 1ppg.

Obviously losing him hasn't helped. But firstly the 4 games with him is a very small sample size (we lost plenty of games with him in the team last season). 

And secondly losing one key player shouldn't lead to league winning form becoming relegation form. That it has is a failure on the part of the manager.

To me there seems to be some parallels to last season, one which was with Smith in charge and the other when Wagner joined.

Last year we had quite a favourable run of fixtures to start the year, that was when Smith had us on the unbeaten run and at the top of the league. Once the fixtures got harder we started to fall off pretty quickly. Our first 4 games weren't that easy, Hull are a decent side and Southampton will probably be up there but both Millwall and Huddersfield have replaced their managers since we played them.

The other parallel is to when Wagner came in and changed our possession shape initially, it worked a treat in those games vs Preston and Coventry and we kept up the results for a little while. Eventually it seemed like people figured us out and we didn't have any cause to adapt. That is similar to this year, where we deployed our box midfield to great effect early on. However, teams soon stopped allowing us to outnumber them in midfield and play through the middle of the pitch and since then we've looked worse with there being seemingly little attempt to change things.

It's all well and good saying calm is needed but I think a well coached side is one that always seems to be improving one way or another. Even in Farke's first year we looked much more impressive at the end of the year in contrast to the start. Some of that may simply be familiarity, but it's also the result of the team being asked questions and the coaching team helping to provide the answers, eventually that will add up. To provide these answers you need some sort of understanding as to what you're telling the players, my worry is that Wagner's possession tactics are completely surface level, they are told what to do but there's no idea as to why. This means that once teams adapt to how you play you've got no clue on where to turn next. Last night we had Boro in a bit of a tangle the first 15 minutes, but soon enough their left winger started drifting inside more and they grew into the game while we never seemed to adapt to that.

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Should have been saying this when it was Smith under the cosh, because we were better off with him than we have been with Wagner.

Jesus wept.

Hard no 

[Big O 225]

I think you make some salient points @lake district canary in that we need to be careful right now not to over react and end up in a right muddle. The truth is of course that the fans are in full revolt mode right now because of the shambles of the last 2 and half years and the frustration it brings.

For me this only ends when we hit the bottom and the aspirations for the team reset (I.e. not a promotion team). We are not far from being there now and I think the start of the new sporting Director gives us a natural break point and potentially 6 months in front of us where we can’t go up and should have too much to go down.

This actually gives Knapper a 6 month window to face into the likely realities of us having to sell Sara and Rowe to balance the books due to the loss of the parachute payments as well as gutting the wage bill. 
This will enable us to work through how we move forward as a club, which manager needs to come in to take us forward and how we refresh the squad to support that individual.

Sacking Wagner tomorrow won’t allow this  time and could place a lot of pressure on a manager who won’t have the right players to support them. I do understand the counter argument is that someone could come in now and change out fortune and drive us into the top 6, although personally I think that is unlikely.

my view is that Wagner will continue for a bit longer, maybe till March when a new manager will come into take stock and plan for 24/25 season. 

[Keith Scott 245]

Should Norwich fans be calm!?

Norwich fans are the most placid fan base in the UK. 

Almost any other fan base would have hounded out the Stowmarket two or voted with their feet years ago.

Webber and Wagner would be getting dog's abuse. And rightfully so.

Norwich fans don't have it in them.

You reap what you sow.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,012]

1 minute ago, Keith Scott said:

Should Norwich fans be calm!?

Norwich fans are the most placid fan base in the UK. 

Almost any other fan base would have hounded out the Stowmarket two or voted with their feet years ago.

Webber and Wagner would be getting dog's abuse. And rightfully so.

Norwich fans don't have it in them.

You reap what you sow.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

 

How many bites you hoping for Big Keith? I’m guessing you’ll get into double figures. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,754]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

How many bites you hoping for Big Keith? I’m guessing you’ll get into double figures. 

He uses one hand for typing the other for jerking off when we lose while he stares at a picture of Alf Ramsey he's glued to his wall me thinks..

Edited October 25, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Petriix 2,847]

4 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Play decent football without stupid simple mistakes the fans wouldn’t get on people’s backs

This is palpably untrue. We've been very successfully passing the ball out from the back, yet fans boo and jeer. We surge forwards in near silence at times. The atmosphere is totally flat and much of the good work goes unappreciated. There were boos at half time last night at 0-0 FFS; quite the sense of entitlement from the fans. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,012]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

He uses one hand for typing the other for jerking off when we lose while he stares at a picture of Alf Ramsey he's glued to his wall me thinks..

Those testes are busy making more love juice of late then.  

Edited October 25, 2023 by Midlands Yellow

[king canary 7,624]

5 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

We also lost Barnes. A huge character in the team. I think it was a combination of the two that sent confidence surging through the team.

To say losing them both 'hasn't helped' is the understatement of the year - especially when you look at the replacements. 

A team working well is a really delicate thing. We've all seen teams' form drop dramatically for no really explicable reason. In our case there is s totally obvious one; a really good manager with a really good squad might be able to overcome it, but it's never easy. Look at all the manager's who've gone from hero to zero because they can't get their players to replicate good form.

Football's a funny old game, & I don't care what anyone says, it's difficult to predict how things will go, especially for a team operating with our constraints.

Yes but my point is if a managers whole system falls apart because of one injury then the issue is their system.

Sargent or Barnes being injured doesn't explain conceding 6 to Plymouth or falling apart so badly in the second half v Leeds or the fact Wagner keeps making substitutions that make things worse, or his insistence on starting Liam Gibbs at number 10 or his insistence of playing Onel over more capable players etc etc.

I'd have sympathy for the injury angle if we'd gone from promotion to mid table form but to go from promotion to relegation form can't be brushed away due to injuries in one position.

 

[City fan 78]

5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

**** 

[City fan 78]

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

Fec

[hogesar 9,705]

31 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes but my point is if a managers whole system falls apart because of one injury then the issue is their system.

Sargent or Barnes being injured doesn't explain conceding 6 to Plymouth or falling apart so badly in the second half v Leeds or the fact Wagner keeps making substitutions that make things worse, or his insistence on starting Liam Gibbs at number 10 or his insistence of playing Onel over more capable players etc etc.

I'd have sympathy for the injury angle if we'd gone from promotion to mid table form but to go from promotion to relegation form can't be brushed away due to injuries in one position.

 

Especially when little if any adjustment has been made to try and cope with that. Maybe you persist for a couple of games thinking you might get enough out of it but we've had hideously exposed weaknesses since losing those players for so long with nothing seemingly done about it - to the naked eye at least. Averaging nearly 20 shots against us home / away every game, even outside the area, is a recipe for disaster - the worst case for them (best for us) is it gives optimism and momentum to the other team and their fans.

Edited October 25, 2023 by hogesar

[City Stand Ultra 41]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

The first 20 minutes last night showed everything about the system we're trying to play and how it could work, yet also exposed the simple truth that we lack the quality to convert those decent positions into goals. Then we saw more of the vulnerability of having our midfield spread out. Pressing is double-edged: you can win the ball back high and create openings, but you leave yourself short at the back.

Really?? - in that 20 min period Boro had as many shots as us, dominated possession 56/44, had more corners, a higher pass success rate.....I'm not sure what game you were watching but we were weak and ineffective throughout including that first 20 mins.  

Maybe you should check the stats behind dishing out your great insight first.  

We were more defensive and sacrificed all attacking strength in an attempt to shore up the sieve like defensive side of our game.

To some extent its unfair on Wagner to have to wait for Knapper to deliver the coup de grace which he will surely do, although will be interesting to see whether the loans mgr/data nerd has the balls to do it.  He doesnt look the type to swing the axe but appearances can be deceptive.  Hopefully he will mean business from the off.

You can check the stats at whoscored.com

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,031]

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

No, quite the opposite, we need wholesale revolt...........maybe........just maybe.........the Board will take notice then..........

[DraytonBoy 159]

I don't think things have got as bad yet to describe the mood as 'toxic', there were a few 'boos' and a muted 'we want Webber out' last night but that's about it.

 

[ron obvious 1,514]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yes but my point is if a managers whole system falls apart because of one injury then the issue is their system.

Sargent or Barnes being injured doesn't explain conceding 6 to Plymouth or falling apart so badly in the second half v Leeds or the fact Wagner keeps making substitutions that make things worse, or his insistence on starting Liam Gibbs at number 10 or his insistence of playing Onel over more capable players etc etc.

I'd have sympathy for the injury angle if we'd gone from promotion to mid table form but to go from promotion to relegation form can't be brushed away due to injuries in one position.

 

I don't think it's one position but both.

Replacing Josh with Idah immediately lessened our attacking threat catastrophically, but then to lose Barnes who gave real backbone & morale to the attack (& the whole team) was devastating.

If we'd have jus lost Sarge I reckon our goal scoring tally would have dropped but it's more about his work rate & pressure that kept oppositions fully occupied that we missed. Aided & abetted by Barnes' nous & character they didn't allow our opponents much freedom. So losing Sarge puts us at mid-table form, then losing Barnes means there's a greater likelihood of capitulation, which is what we're seeing. 

Sara & Rowe can't do it on their own. And they're not the sort of players to grab a team by the scruff of the neck & drive them on. And who's been on the bench to replace Onel & Gibbs who would have made a difference? No, we need the two we lost back badly. I have a horrible feeling it's too late now though, morale is awful.

[Sufyellow 222]

7 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Should have been saying this when it was Smith under the cosh, because we were better off with him than we have been with Wagner.

No we weren't,  we were just as bad .

[Sufyellow 222]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Nevertheless, Farke was sacked, and with good reason, with many fans calling for it, even though I was still sticking up for him when he was.

You should have got over it.

What was the good reason again? I am still so confused.  

[Sufyellow 222]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What we don't need is another philosophy manager. Farke was the best go at that, but it was ultimately a failure, and the second go has seen us go backwards.

Lambert wasn't a philosophy manager, nor was Hughton; they're the ones who have given us the most success in the last 20 years. Let's have a manager who works his style to suit the players, not the other way around.

So it's now a failure to get a mid championship club to the prem twice with a minus 20 million budget each time. Winning the championship twice with great football. 

[Sufyellow 222]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

I'm not hearing a single "Webber Out" at Carrow Road, presumably because everyone else knows he's going.

I don't see why we're ranting on here about the fact he's not gone yet. Had he left yesterday it would have had zero bearing on the result or performance. I think Knapper deserves opportunity in his own right and it's not as if Webber and Knapper won't be in regular comms right now. If Knapper want's rid and is intending to sack Wagner as soon as he's in place then I doubt it'd stop anything happening now.

Just be nice to sack him for failure,  that's what normally happens at clubs. Stuart gets to go on his terms,  but he may have to sack his third  manager and blame them on his way out. 3 managers and thier Coaching staff , that must be 7 or 8 million wasted in a couple of years. . 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

15 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

What was the good reason again? I am still so confused.  

10 games without a win and anchored to the bottom of the premier league by a substantial margin.

Don't have a go at me about it. I was making the arguments why to keep Farke right up to the point he went. I'm just highlighting the argument that won the day at the time. Maybe if you'd been as vociferous at defending his record at the time as you are at challenging my summary of why he went he'd still be here.

[Sufyellow 222]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

10 games without a win and anchored to the bottom of the premier league by a substantial margin.

Don't have a go at me about it. I was making the arguments why to keep Farke right up to the point he went. I'm just highlighting the argument that won the day at the time. Maybe if you'd been as vociferous at defending his record at the time as you are at challenging my summary of why he went he'd still be here.

I thought we had that discussion months ago, i certainly stood by my opinion vocally after the event.  If you were arguing for him to stay , why have you changed your mind? After all that has happened since surely it backs up your argument.  The players weren't good enough simple. Why would I have been on here arguing his case to save him ? Apart from one or two fans at the ground no one turned on him like they did smith or wagner last night, and webber said he didn't listen to the noise, I guess that was just another lie. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

This is palpably untrue. We've been very successfully passing the ball out from the back, yet fans boo and jeer. We surge forwards in near silence at times. The atmosphere is totally flat and much of the good work goes unappreciated. There were boos at half time last night at 0-0 FFS; quite the sense of entitlement from the fans. 

Taken in isolation you maybe right but it's not entitlement to expect one of the best backed teams in league to show some improvement on three years of really really poor performances. Fans had absolutely every right to show their unhappiness at that 45 minutes. Fed up of the management, players etc saying they need to take responsibility and then not. The atmosphere is as flat because this team is the latest in a long line of overpaid individuals not good enough to wear the shirt.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kenny Foggo

[Sufyellow 222]

Just now, Kenny Foggo said:

Taken in isolation you maybe right but it's not entitlement to expect one of the best backed teams in league to show some improvement on three years of really really poor performances. Fans had absolutely every right to show their unhappiness at that 44 minutes. Fed up of the management, players etc saying they need to take responsibility and then not. The atmosphere is as flat because this team is the latest in a long line of overpaid individuals not good enough to wear the shirt.

Best backed clubs , we just had a minus 20 million net spend.  Not sure what other clubs did that . 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

7 hours ago, S_81 said:

He’s not leaving soon enough. That’s the problem. 

Why as a player would you bust a gut when the boss doesn’t. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,754]

1 hour ago, DraytonBoy said:

I don't think things have got as bad yet to describe the mood as 'toxic', there were a few 'boos' and a muted 'we want Webber out' last night but that's about it.

 

I think there's also a strong sense of apathy among some right now