A fish rots from the head

[Unthink road 132]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Marky Mark? Why ridicule him before you see how he might improve us. 

He may be great. I have my reservations speaking to solid sources. If we sell, it's the Wild West. No turning back. 

[Big Vince 318]

5 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

Love your passion Big Vincent and I agree with some of your points, but we are in the same position with the same llevels of debt. But in this time we have seen more billionai owners over more clubs , so where do we fit. It's always down to recruitment and coaching. 

You can't do recruitment without spending money at the going rate and Norwich just don't spend any money at the going rate for the quality that is needed. Coaches are really only as good as the players they are given to work with. If Farke had been given the boy Abraham upon the last promotion plus some proper defensive midfielders and proper centre halves, then Norwich would at least have been in contention to stay up instead of meekly surrendering their EPL status.

[Big Vince 318]

3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Absolutely. Webber is hanging around like a bad smell. Once he told D&M that he was leaving an exit stategy should have been implemented for him to go sharpish under our terms not his.

Could you ever imagine Mr Chase allowing this situation to develop? He rightly bounced supporters around, but no one ever bounced Norwich City around.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Big Vince

[nutty nigel 7,537]

16 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Marky Mark? Why ridicule him before you see how he might improve us. 

Is that ridicule? If it is then it's nowhere near your level. Ridicule is all you've got. And ever had.

[essex canary 496]

3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Absolutely. Webber is hanging around like a bad smell. Once he told D&M that he was leaving an exit stategy should have been implemented for him to go sharpish under our terms not his.

But of course Zoe's vision and strategy is fine?

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

5 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

This is a huge issue for me. Only Norwich could take so long.

Shareholders need to let go, stop whining over the price they'll get for their shares and get this over the bloody line.

 

It isn’t those shareholders who have been holding this deal up. It really isn’t. 

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

So tell us why we are borrowing of MA? On the back of £40M parachute money and the sale of Max and AO.

What is predictable is that you won't admit there is a major problem. Instead you just accuse other posters of being pathetic.

I don’t follow what you’re referring to about MA and £40m?  Am i missing something?

And I definitely said we were pretty pathetic today, but don’t recall ‘accusing’ other posters - we are (presumably) all supporters and will have different opinions, which is fine.

That said, some just turn up like clockwork when we lose and then disappear again  - over my near-20 years posting on here I’ve often said that is pretty pathetic. I stand by it if that’s what you mean, because it is.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[nutty nigel 7,537]

19 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It isn’t those shareholders who have been holding this deal up. It really isn’t. 

Indeed. But it's a blame game and Shareholders are just another target.

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Indeed. But it's a blame game and Shareholders are just another target.

Yes, it is.  These things do always take time - obviously on a hugely different scale, but the Man U saga seems to be endless.  Our’s is at least coming to closure. 

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

6 hours ago, hogesar said:

So they should magic someone up then?

Plus MA is already £40 million in so you've even got that wrong.

Yep, as "custodians" of the club it is their responsibility to push the club forward. I f they can't, which has been evident to all but the most stubborn of Delia supporters (who are not true Norwich supporters) for the last 15 years, they need to find someone who will.

 

 

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

4 minutes ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Yep, as "custodians" of the club it is their responsibility to push the club forward. I f they can't, which has been evident to all but the most stubborn of Delia supporters (who are not true Norwich supporters) for the last 15 years, they need to find someone who will.

 

 

What is a ‘Delia supporter’?  I imagine there are people who appreciate them/what they’ve done at/for the club. But I’ve never considered myself a ‘supporter’ of her and don’t know anyone who does. They own the club, so it is what it is.

I’m intrigued at what your definition of a true supporter might be. 

[nutty nigel 7,537]

We need more of the truest true fans. The ones that don't go but come on here crying 'happy clapper Delia supporters' after a loss. These truest of true fans are the reason we get the occasional good season and them others are the reason we lose games. Perhaps they should get together and breed from their gene pool so that we get more and more truest of true fans. I wish them all the best in that venture...

[Big Vince 318]

32 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

What is a ‘Delia supporter’?  I imagine there are people who appreciate them/what they’ve done at/for the club. But I’ve never considered myself a ‘supporter’ of her and don’t know anyone who does. They own the club, so it is what it is.

I’m intrigued at what your definition of a true supporter might be. 

But they haven't done anything for the club that has moved it forward. It remains where they found it.

[Fen Canary 825]

1 hour ago, Big Vince said:

But they haven't done anything for the club that has moved it forward. It remains where they found it.

They found it languishing towards the bottom of the second tier with bankruptcy a very real threat. We’re now disappointed at sitting 6th and have a debt that’s very manageable in comparison. We’re light years from where we were 25 years ago 

[BarclayWazza 91]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

They found it languishing towards the bottom of the second tier with bankruptcy a very real threat. We’re now disappointed at sitting 6th and have a debt that’s very manageable in comparison. We’re light years from where we were 25 years ago 

25 years ago we'd not long come off of the most successful 5-6 years the club had ever had.  Under Delia's stewardship we:

1. Dropped to the 3rd tier for the first time in about 60 years

2. In that process, narrowly avoided going into administration

3. Necessitated the sale of players (Maddison) to avoid administration again

4. Are still in the position where we will rely on the sale of players, especially when parachute payments run out (still find it bizarre that the sales of our best players under Chase led to mass fan protests but under Delia its something to be seemingly celebrated)

5. Required fan investment in a bond to rebuild the training ground/academy

6. Required fan investment in shares to stay solvent

7. Required fan investment in not requesting season ticket rebates to buy a player

8. Aside from a season under Lambert and a 10 game spell under Hughton, never looked like we belonged in the Premier League

We're far from light years ahead of where we were mid to late 90's.  League position wise, pretty much the same and well below the period prior. Financially, still need to sell our best players to survive.

 

[Fen Canary 825]

41 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

25 years ago we'd not long come off of the most successful 5-6 years the club had ever had.  Under Delia's stewardship we:

1. Dropped to the 3rd tier for the first time in about 60 years

2. In that process, narrowly avoided going into administration

3. Necessitated the sale of players (Maddison) to avoid administration again

4. Are still in the position where we will rely on the sale of players, especially when parachute payments run out (still find it bizarre that the sales of our best players under Chase led to mass fan protests but under Delia its something to be seemingly celebrated)

5. Required fan investment in a bond to rebuild the training ground/academy

6. Required fan investment in shares to stay solvent

7. Required fan investment in not requesting season ticket rebates to buy a player

8. Aside from a season under Lambert and a 10 game spell under Hughton, never looked like we belonged in the Premier League

We're far from light years ahead of where we were mid to late 90's.  League position wise, pretty much the same and well below the period prior. Financially, still need to sell our best players to survive.

 

Can you name a time when we haven’t sold our best players? Or in fact when any club outside the top 4-5 haven’t sold their best players?

While we had a good spell in the late 80’s-early 90’s, by the time Delia took over after the finances were in a perilous state, not helped by the ntl collapse a while later. Despite we’ve rebuilt the south stand and massively improved the facilities over the previous two decades. Off the pitch we’re a long way ahead of where we were, on the pitch we’ve mostly floated around the top two tiers as we have done for the last 50 years.

Im not going to defend everything Delia and co have done, nobody sits in charge that long and doesn’t make mistakes, and I’ll agree unfortunately to compete in the top flight now seemingly requires owners to throw a hundred million quid at a side and pray you manage to stay up, something that is beyond their financial abilities. However I don’t get the impression MA is the type of owner who will throw millions at the team either so I think many on here will be disappointed with what transpires when the full takeover finally happens.

For all Delia’s success and failures I don’t think many can’t accuse her of not having the clubs interests at heart, and while some are happy to sing her praises while ignoring the mistakes, too many are the complete opposite and seem to blame her for every setback we ever face

[TheBaldOne66 684]

8 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I'm guessing it will be more of the same. I just hope we keep our identity in the City. As far as I'm concerned the end of fan ownership is a sad day. Especially if it's for more of the same.

But you don’t know it will be more of the same do you, nobody does! 
 

Sometimes it’s better, sometimes it’s worse, but unless you buy a ticket you won’t win the raffle will you?

Anyway, isn’t MA now deemed to be a fan? So it won’t be the end of it if that’s the case.

[TheBaldOne66 684]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

They found it languishing towards the bottom of the second tier with bankruptcy a very real threat. We’re now disappointed at sitting 6th and have a debt that’s very manageable in comparison. We’re light years from where we were 25 years ago 

But they have almost taken us to bankruptcy themselves during their tenure too with awful decisions they’ve made!

[komakino 272]

9 hours ago, Big Vince said:

Could you ever imagine Mr Chase allowing this situation to develop? He rightly bounced supporters around, but no one ever bounced Norwich City around.

That's one thing that always baffles me. Most - or a significant minority - of Norwich City fans I would argue are happy to be in The Championship., which ties in with The Stowmarket Two. However, one season in the second tier with Chase and all hell brakes loose. 

Football has changed since the 1990's and football no longer had a place for modest local businessmen such as him, but his ultimate replacements gradually changed the ambition of Norwich City to a level they were happy with, rather than the support base. 

My concern by yesterday is that the initial Wagner 'bounce' of last season faded quickly and the same thing could be happening again. With the club going back to 50K buys and freebies, much akin to the John Bond/Arthur South days of the 1970's and a protracted takeover process of sorts, every City fan has a right to be concerned. 

[Fen Canary 825]

10 hours ago, Big Vince said:

Could you ever imagine Mr Chase allowing this situation to develop? He rightly bounced supporters around, but no one ever bounced Norwich City around.

You think Chase would have Norwich in the top flight if he was in charge today? People criticise Delia for not having the funds to compete with the billionaires who own the majority of Premiership (and an increasing number of Championship) clubs, how much did Chase ever put in? Comparing owning a club in the old first division 35 years ago to what it takes to keep a club in a similar position today is chalk and cheese 

[hogesar 9,676]

10 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Yep, as "custodians" of the club it is their responsibility to push the club forward. I f they can't, which has been evident to all but the most stubborn of Delia supporters (who are not true Norwich supporters) for the last 15 years, they need to find someone who will.

 

 

Well, I haven't heard anything about you starting a Delia Out protest this season or last. Or the one before that. So I guess you're also not a true Norwich supporter.

[chicken 2,625]

16 hours ago, hogesar said:

But it wasn't relevant after

Norwich 2 - 1 Hull?

Or Saints 4 - 4 Norwich?

Or QPR 0 - 1 Norwich?

Or Norwich 3 - 1 Millwall?

Or Norwich 1 - 0 Stoke?

It seems oddly convenient to forget to post about this sort of thing whenever we win. Almost like it's subjective and the OP doesn't have the courage.

Oh and conveniently ignores the fact we are going through the process of changing owners. And he then claims the new guy doesn't want to put money in. Even though he's already £40 million in.

As per usual, @Dean Coneys boots loves his little phrases but tends to ignore any facts that don't suit him.

Also wasn't relevant when we spent loads of money on players and he said he was excited.

Broken clock most of the time, just the coocoo only appears on the down beat. Same with a lot of the others hence you see them trying to make out Leicester to be a crap team to make it look like we should have done better. In fact, I would go as far as saying many of them just copy the MSM approach of building something up unrealistically just so the failures can be exaggerated.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

11 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

It isn’t those shareholders who have been holding this deal up. It really isn’t. 

Not only is it certainly not shareholders supposedly wanting to sell up who are delaying the deal, but if the complaint is that this has stopped Attanasio from bankrolling the club that is equally false. He has already put in tens of millions of pounds.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

I don’t follow what you’re referring to about MA and £40m?  Am i missing something?

And I definitely said we were pretty pathetic today, but don’t recall ‘accusing’ other posters - we are (presumably) all supporters and will have different opinions, which is fine.

That said, some just turn up like clockwork when we lose and then disappear again  - over my near-20 years posting on here I’ve often said that is pretty pathetic. I stand by it if that’s what you mean, because it is.

It was posted on here a while ago that MA was/has lent us money. I have no idea how much or why. And I just wanted someone to explain to me what it entails.

We are entitled to another £35-£40M in parachute payments this season. We sold Max and AO for at least £15M between them. We also sold Krul, Rashica and loan money for Tzolis. We sold Mumba for £1M. We sold all our season tickets. 

We brought in only Fassnacht for an undisclosed fee. The players we have brought in wages I don't know but we have sold and let go more than came in so I am assuming there isn't a massive difference in the wage bill.

So I have politley been asking wher the money has gone? One post said out outgoings were greater than our income by £17M. That should by my most basic maths have ensured we could spend on recrutiment this season by around £18-£20M.

If our wage bill is that high that we lose money each season, especially as we face next season with no parachute money, then we aren't the self sufficient, well run club some would have us believe. And if our wage bill was so much higher than Luton, then we are overpaying for the quality we have recruited. Some say we bought some of these while in the EPL so had to pay the going rate. Fair enough.So why are we struggling in the EFL?

Then I was led to believe we borrowed against this year's parachute payment. Was that from MA? Why did we borrow? 

Believe me, I am devoted to Norwich. Before yesterday's game I was with the younger crowd singing all our songs at the top of my voice. And even at 2-0 down we were still singing. I don't do discuss and theorise at matches. I let all my emotions that have built up in the week before come flowing out. Its my passion. Following NCFC. I enjoyed the L1 season as much as the EPL ones.I don't demand we win every week and I don't demand we play int EPL and get into debt buting £30M players.

There is no difference between me or Big Vince or yourself. We just have different ways of relaying that passion to the rest of our fellow posters.

But I am also passionate to know where the money has gone and do we think we are getting value for that money. I thank Delia for what she did in 1996 and she has done a great deal of good for the club. I am not asking her to sell up although I honestly believe she has gone as far as she can. Football has changed. Players and coaches change.So should owners. But that is her choice. But lets not kid ourselves that we are in a good place at the moment.

You are only as good as your last game. We slipped in performance, let alone results in our previous three games. And yesterday was a capitulation against a side we had twice as much possession as. That is completely wrong. Something is going wrong. We are left with two CBs and it isnt personal but Gibson is a liability. We have two strikers and once again it isn't personal but Hwang  is a total passenger.

So once again, what is the club doing? We suffered before because of an injury crisis and we are in another but we haven't learnt from it. We are between a rock and a hard place in terms of personnel. So we cannot do anything about it at the moment. So how do you overcome? You ask the players to step up. Give it their all. Extra yard and all those tenacious quotes.

I didn't see that yesterday. Even Angus looked fed up and couldn't be bothered. Rowe is young I know but I expected more from an academy led who was given his chance by this club. I think Sara can play but if he has nobody to pass it to, he is just an ordinary player.

I am not telling DW how to use tactics, he should know better than me. But I am telling him, that his job is also to put some passion in the players. To inspire them, to make them giants. No sign of it at the moment.

[chicken 2,625]

7 hours ago, BarclayWazza said:

25 years ago we'd not long come off of the most successful 5-6 years the club had ever had.  Under Delia's stewardship we:

1. Dropped to the 3rd tier for the first time in about 60 years

2. In that process, narrowly avoided going into administration

3. Necessitated the sale of players (Maddison) to avoid administration again

4. Are still in the position where we will rely on the sale of players, especially when parachute payments run out (still find it bizarre that the sales of our best players under Chase led to mass fan protests but under Delia its something to be seemingly celebrated)

5. Required fan investment in a bond to rebuild the training ground/academy

6. Required fan investment in shares to stay solvent

7. Required fan investment in not requesting season ticket rebates to buy a player

8. Aside from a season under Lambert and a 10 game spell under Hughton, never looked like we belonged in the Premier League

We're far from light years ahead of where we were mid to late 90's.  League position wise, pretty much the same and well below the period prior. Financially, still need to sell our best players to survive.

 

Only half the story there though isn't it? We sold off a lot of our players before they arrived. We then regularly sold players to help manage our debts like Bellamy, for example, later Green, Ashton, Earnshaw... No different to losing Sutton, Fox etc. The only real difference was that when we sold Sutton, we had played in Europe. We sold him to a team that finished below us and they ended up winning the title and we... well, you know the rest of that.

Whilst it is true we had a successful period before they arrived, they arrived when the club was not being successful and the chairman was refusing to spend much money at all. Having sold parts of the team that had kept us in the premier league. Our fall from grace in that sense was incredibly poor considering the money everyone knew was coming into football. It made no sense to sell the players that were keeping us on that cash train. You only need look at clubs that didn't and kept in the league and have remained their for most of the time since despite being historically no more successful.

Like Branston, if you asked me, I don't know Delia or Michael (who every idiot forgets) personally, I'm not in the realms of chefs or publishers so being "fans" of them is never something I would describe myself as. I do think they have done well with the club having watched the fall of other sides over the years (Oldham who were in the premier league with us for example) and whilst we may have struggled to be as impressive in the top tier as we were in the late 80's (1st Division) and early 90's (premiership, premier league), it was a more even playing field back then with "big money" from Sky etc only just seeping in.

In some ways D&M are a cast back to what English football used to be about, and I think it could be fair to say that is probably part of the challenge they have had and why delivering consistent success for a large period has been such a challenge.

And to that, I would also challenge the concept/notion of "most successful period of 5-6 seasons the club had ever had. You cannot include the implosion and relegation, so that season is out, we were part way through a season which you seem to rule out.

So lets say 4-5. I would argue it was more like 20yrs. Since promotion to the top tier in 72, we were relegated 3 times bounding back at the first go on each of those occasions. We also won a league cup. Again, worth noting that we sold players in that period too. Steve Bruce for example.

It is really easy to look at history and pick out the bits you like. The reality is, on the cusp of big money arriving in the game, with it most definitely being on the cards, Chase played an incredibly poor hand. It left us playing catching up with the Jones' whilst starting off with a financial handicap. We did well with Lambert and one season under Hughton - who certainly improved our defensive game.

It isn't all about money either. Other teams at least appear to do well with limited budgets. Though in that sense, for what it's worth, Delia and Michael were ahead of the curve, looking to Europe for inspiration and ideas whilst English football at that time persisted with big, athletic, hard tackling players above technique. The one thing I have always loved about Norwich is that we have tried to play football. Fox, Eadie, Hoolahan, Maddison, Buendia... we have frequently had diminutive creative players who other clubs seemed reluctant to take such a chance on but we gave them a platform to thrill. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by chicken

[Midlands Yellow 3,986]

11 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Is that ridicule? If it is then it's nowhere near your level. Ridicule is all you've got. And ever had.

You’re very welcome.

[hogesar 9,676]

41 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Not only is it certainly not shareholders supposedly wanting to sell up who are delaying the deal, but if the complaint is that this has stopped Attanasio from bankrolling the club that is equally false. He has already put in tens of millions of pounds.

Nah, @Dean Coneys boots assured me MA doesn't want to invest any money into the club so if you think he has, you're sadly mistaken 🙃

[Big Vince 318]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

You think Chase would have Norwich in the top flight if he was in charge today? People criticise Delia for not having the funds to compete with the billionaires who own the majority of Premiership (and an increasing number of Championship) clubs, how much did Chase ever put in? Comparing owning a club in the old first division 35 years ago to what it takes to keep a club in a similar position today is chalk and cheese 

I was referring to the situation with Webber. There is no way Chase would have allowed or tolerated it. But the present owners are happy for their employee to dictate his own terms, even once he has indicated he no longer wishes to work here. These owners are weak.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Big Vince

[Indy 3,300]

11 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Yes, it is.  These things do always take time - obviously on a hugely different scale, but the Man U saga seems to be endless.  Our’s is at least coming to closure. 

Is it? There’s really no closure more a 2& 1/2 year wait to see if MA wants to buy or get out, if MJW & Delia want to sell or if we carry on as is? I don’t believe there’s any actual finale to the deal just a pause after this share holding goes through.

[TIL 1010 4,748]

12 hours ago, essex canary said:

But of course Zoe's vision and strategy is fine?

Did i say that ? I have my views on the Webbers which for the avoidance of doubt is not positive but unlike you i do not make every single post or thread i make about them.